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twodot posted:In the counterfactual where a wizard exists and can solve all of our problems magically? Sure have as many kids as you like, there is a wizard that will solve literally any possible problem. This being a thing that is super hard for you to answer is going to make me strongly assume that you would be doing this weird children are morally bad thing no matter what and have just latched on climate change as a classy angle to take it from.
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Apr 5, 2018 17:44
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:This being a thing that is super hard for you to answer is going to make me strongly assume that you would be doing this weird children are morally bad thing no matter what and have just latched on climate change as a classy angle to take it from. edit: Like, I fully own up to not being well equipped to answer hypotheticals about what we should do if a literal wizard solved all of our environmental problems. What's your justification for thinking it's at all reasonable to have children in current reality? twodot fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 17:47
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Having children is morally bad in general because it is subjecting a conscious being to the horrors and sufferings of life, all this without asking them for prior consent. Having children in this day and age is specifically morally bad because lol what kind of a monster are you
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Apr 5, 2018 17:53
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twodot posted:You're the one proposing the wizard of unknown powers hypothetical. Even if you're right that I'm just opposed to children in general, and have latched on to "I think the environment should continue to be friendly towards humans" as an angle, I'm still right that we shouldn't be making more children in current reality. Friendly reminder that OOCC called people who scorned regular trans-oceanic flights as being racist xenophobes so I don't think you're going to make much headway with this one.
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Apr 5, 2018 17:57
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Papal Infallibility posted:Friendly reminder that OOCC called people who scorned regular trans-oceanic flights as being racist xenophobes so I don't think you're going to make much headway with this one. People that think the solution to environmental issues are to limit people's travel, close borders, remove women's rights or any of that sort of punitive stuff almost always are just being a parasite on environmental causes where they just think they can use it to justify their totalitarian ideals. In real life the only actual thing that has ever worked to fix environmental problems is raising people's standards of living and giving people more freedom. In which case the have less kids, gravitate towards cleaner technologies and are able to develop and implement permanent changes to lifestyle that aren't just eternal austerity programs.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:01
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:In real life the only actual thing that has ever worked to fix environmental problems is raising people's standards of living and giving people more freedom. In which case the have less kids, gravitate towards cleaner technologies and are able to develop and implement permanent changes to lifestyle that aren't just eternal austerity programs. It seems that, so far, raising people's standards of living worldwide hasn't resulted in a significant curbing of worldwide GHG emissions at all, which is the main environmental problem we're facing today.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:05
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DrNutt posted:Yeah, I mentioned that in the very post that you quoted. Did you edit that? Because when I first clicked quote I didn't see that 
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Apr 5, 2018 18:13
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:People that think the solution to environmental issues are to limit people's travel, close borders, remove women's rights or any of that sort of punitive stuff almost always are just being a parasite on environmental causes where they just think they can use it to justify their totalitarian ideals. You're fighting against a moral philosophy that's never going to happen, and you're wrong at the same time. That's a lol. Don't worry, the corporate overlords will continue to protect your right to fly around and meme with cats even after the countries of the world descend into nationalistic protectionist fervor. It's profitable to let rich people like you do that, so you'll be fine. Namaste!
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Apr 5, 2018 18:19
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I don't think having children is immoral because it accelerates global warming. I think having children is immoral because you absolutely cannot provide them a full, joyful life - with previous generations the thinking was you would be able to provide your children a better life than you had, but now I cannot even reasonably assume they'll have a life equal to mine. In fact I can reasonably assume they'll live a life of extreme difficulty and suffering. Even if 2018 lasted indefinitely with no change to the status quo I would not want to bring a child into this world, let alone tomorrow's. Why create a whole rear end being to subject them to wild suffering when there are lives already existing whose suffering you can maybe mitigate? Having children is either the result of massive ignorance or sickening selfishness.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:19
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:People that think the solution to environmental issues are to limit people's travel, close borders, remove women's rights or any of that sort of punitive stuff almost always are just being a parasite on environmental causes where they just think they can use it to justify their totalitarian ideals. Literally the only effect that raising peoples standards of living has done is make them have fewer kids, and even then correlation is not causation. Meanwhile developed countries have per-capita emissions that are often an order of magnitude higher than non-developed countries and they have also outsourced most of the directly destructive parts of manufacturing and resource extraction to said non-developed countries. I'm not sure how additional development makes peoples lives less extravagant and not more but I'm not entirely certain you are arguing in good faith. I think you are trying to paint people who criticize any sort of unsustainable and unnecessary behavior with whichever ad-hominem attack casts them in the worst possible light. I don't have children, nor do my wife and I intend to have them. I do have enough friends with kids that I don't particularly care if someone has them, and I would regard any attempt at legally regulating a person's ability to have kids as being a fundamental infringement of their rights. I just find the fact that you are calling out plausibly justifiable concerns as being misogynistic and racist to be a stellar example of the idiocy you've blessed this thread with.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:25
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Would you tell the same to people having children in developing countries? What about a hundred years ago? I get what all of you are trying to say, but having and raising children is such a persistent constant of the human experience that the argument seems outlandish. There is also the fact that children were usually your support system for old age. From that perspective, if everyone magically stopped having children right now, we would face lives of misery and helplessness in about two or three decades time. At that point, why not just advocate for mass suicide? It will result in less suffering and drastically cut emissions as well.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:32
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I love my kids and they love me and I'm glad they're alive and so are they This thread got Real Weird
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Apr 5, 2018 18:33
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Did you edit that? Because when I first clicked quote I didn't see that I might have ninja edited for clarity come to think of it. And lol at the idea of raising people's standards of livings being the solution to environmental issues. Jesus Christ if everyone on Earth was the United States we'd be extinct by now. I do think other countries are doing high standards of living more sustainably than the US but they are all smaller and more homogenous as well.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:36
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:At that point, why not just advocate for mass suicide? i mean, you said it first, not me
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Apr 5, 2018 18:37
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also your kids will live lives of unspeakable poverty and suffering and die cursing your name, assuming you don't do any of the dozens of other things to make them hate you before the world ends
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Apr 5, 2018 18:41
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Oxxidation posted:also your kids will live lives of unspeakable poverty and suffering and die cursing your name, No, that isn't actually a real thing any science says and is actually just some made up doomsday cult thing that weirdos are trying to glue to the actual real problem of climate change.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:42
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:No, that isn't actually a real thing any science says and is actually just some made up doomsday cult thing that weirdos are trying to glue to the actual real problem of climate change. your flaccid technofetishism is worse than anything the denialists have posted and i hope an armenian tabby cat mauls your idiot face clean off
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Apr 5, 2018 18:43
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Oxxidation posted:also your kids will live lives of unspeakable poverty and suffering and die cursing your name, assuming you don't do any of the dozens of other things to make them hate you before the world ends Most of the current problems in first world countries can be directly traced to the decisions and culture of relatively close generations (e.g. the Boomers). Do you intend to die cursing your parents/grandparents name?
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Apr 5, 2018 18:45
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Most of the current problems in first world countries can be directly traced to the decisions and culture of relatively close generations (e.g. the Boomers). Do you intend to die cursing your parents/grandparents name? ohhhhh, absolutely
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Apr 5, 2018 18:47
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Yeah probably.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:48
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Most of the current problems in first world countries can be directly traced to the decisions and culture of relatively close generations (e.g. the Boomers). Do you intend to die cursing your parents/grandparents name? I get along well with my father, but I literally do not have a single kind thing to say about the Baby Boomers or the Silent Generation. When they die we should grind their bodies into mulch.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:48
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Okay then. I personally disagree, but I can definitely understand that.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:48
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:No, that isn't actually a real thing any science says and is actually just some made up doomsday cult thing that weirdos are trying to glue to the actual real problem of climate change. I mean climate change certainly doesn't help but income inequality is widening, antibiotics are rapidly becoming useless, there's about a billion wars and multiple genocides happening right now with the US taking on a trade war with Russia and China that could feasibly become a massive war in and of itself. Add climate change to that equation. Even if your children lead humdrum middle class lives in the United States the odds that they'll be mentally ill, drug addicted, or murdered by a spree killer are pretty good and climbing.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:50
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Oxxidation posted:also your kids will live lives of unspeakable poverty and suffering and die cursing your name, assuming you don't do any of the dozens of other things to make them hate you before the world ends Not empty quoting. AFancyQuestionMark posted:Most of the current problems in first world countries can be directly traced to the decisions and culture of relatively close generations (e.g. the Boomers). Do you intend to die cursing your parents/grandparents name? Definitely.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:51
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Perry Mason Jar posted:I mean climate change certainly doesn't help but income inequality is widening, antibiotics are rapidly becoming useless, there's about a billion wars and multiple genocides happening right now with the US taking on a trade war with Russia and China that could feasibly become a massive war in and of itself. Add climate change to that equation. Even if your children lead humdrum middle class lives in the United States the odds that they'll be mentally ill, drug addicted, or murdered by a spree killer are pretty good and climbing. So you're saying they will have as good or better lives than most people in developing countries have right now?
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Apr 5, 2018 18:54
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Spiking posted:You're fighting against a moral philosophy that's never going to happen, and you're wrong at the same time. That's a lol. Don't worry, the corporate overlords will continue to protect your right to fly around and meme with cats even after the countries of the world descend into nationalistic protectionist fervor. It's profitable to let rich people like you do that, so you'll be fine. Namaste! Okay? So like, you are admitting that your dream of weird global eternal austerity is a non-starter. But like your plan is to sulk about it and beat your fist that you didn't get your way than go forward and look for solutions that improve lives?
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Apr 5, 2018 18:55
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:People that think the solution to environmental issues are to limit people's travel, close borders, remove women's rights or any of that sort of punitive stuff almost always are just being a parasite on environmental causes where they just think they can use it to justify their totalitarian ideals. This literally sounds like a Koch Brothers talking point, the whole false dichotomy between climate justice and social justice. Nobody has said anything about removing freedoms from anyone, especially those in the third world that don't even contribute to climate change in the first place. Instead, what this is is a cynical use of racism and misogyny as shields for a very class-based argument. The only women that need protecting from climate totalitarianism are white, first world, rich ones - the ones that contribute to climate change in the first place. PoC and third world women get a loving pass.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:57
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:So you're saying they will have as good or better lives than most people in developing countries have right now? Developing countries retain communal and spiritual lives, essentially wholly absent in the US and Canada (though not as absent in many European countries), that well insulate against mental illness and drug addiction so it's probably unintuitively worse here. Edit: Oh and people in developing countries shouldn't have children either  Kind of a weird thing to suppose I'm selectively anti-natalist.
Perry Mason Jar fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 18:59
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Perry Mason Jar posted:Developing countries retain communal and spiritual lives, essentially wholly absent in the US and Canada (though not as absent in many European countries), that well insulate against mental illness and drug addiction so it's probably unintuitively worse here. They do? How? Also, if you look, I am sure you can find some welcoming communities or religions that accept outsiders in the U.S. or Canada. If you feel like that would lead you to a better life, you could always try and join them.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:04
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Papal Infallibility posted:I get along well with my father, but I literally do not have a single kind thing to say about the Baby Boomers or the Silent Generation. When they die we should grind their bodies into mulch.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:09
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Perry Mason Jar posted:
Okay, so who SHOULD have children? If it's not women in the developed or developing nations?
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Apr 5, 2018 19:11
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Perry Mason Jar posted:Developing countries retain communal and spiritual lives, essentially wholly absent in the US and Canada (though not as absent in many European countries), So you've been to developing countries, the US and canada and a broad cross section of europe? What about your carbon!
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Apr 5, 2018 19:18
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Okay, so who SHOULD have children? If it's not women in the developed or developing nations? Try Googling antinatalism. It means they believe no one should have kids because of the issue of consent.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:19
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:In real life the only actual thing that has ever worked to fix environmental problems is raising people's standards of living and giving people more freedom. Ahem. INDUSTRIALIZATION IS THE NUMBER 1 CAUSE OF THE SPIKE IN GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS OVER THE PAST 150 YEARS Like, I get what you're trying to say, but much like your views on human spawning and leisure long distance air travel, you're missing the forest for the loving trees.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:20
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:They do? How? Also, if you look, I am sure you can find some welcoming communities or religions that accept outsiders in the U.S. or Canada. If you feel like that would lead you to a better life, you could always try and join them. By having more leisure time and more spaces for community congregation that are free (i.e., not a bar or coffee shop; i.e., parks and libraries and so on). Also by not having the very foundation of their culture built on self-sufficiency and individualism. Owlofcreamcheese posted:Okay, so who SHOULD have children? If it's not women in the developed or developing nations? Anyone who can reasonably expect their child to have a rich fulfilling life. So I can't think of any group right now. Cubans, maybe.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:20
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Okay, so who SHOULD have children? If it's not women in the developed or developing nations? Everyone should just be adopting all those orphans who need parents and apparently grow on trees. Also, can we start rating quality of life somehow? How good does a life have to be to be worth living? Can we measure it in laughter or blowjobs? davebo fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 19:21
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:So you've been to developing countries, the US and canada and a broad cross section of europe? What about your carbon! They invented a way to transfer knowledge of peoples and places without visiting them - you're going poo poo when you discover it. call to action posted:Try Googling antinatalism. It means they believe no one should have kids because of the issue of consent. My view isn't predicated on consent.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:22
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Perry Mason Jar posted:Anyone who can reasonably expect their child to have a rich fulfilling life. So just the rich, cool also I have to just laugh at these conversations when people stoop to "life won't be worth living in 50 years!!!" as if the past 200 years aren't a historical blip as far as humanity is concerned. it's just a reversion to the mean
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Apr 5, 2018 19:22
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Perry Mason Jar posted:My view isn't predicated on consent. Oh, OK. That's the core argument around antinatalism though. self unaware posted:So just the rich, cool So you believe only the rich have lives worth living? Interesting take, seems a bit racist and classist. also lol @ describing catastrophic anthropogenic climate change as a 'reversion to the mean'
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Apr 5, 2018 19:23
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davebo posted:Everyone should just be adopting all those orphans who need parents and apparently grow on trees. There's an estimated 153 million orphaned children. Slim pickings!! self unaware posted:So just the rich, cool Why do you think only the rich can lead fulfilling lives? Or that they necessarily do?
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Apr 5, 2018 19:25
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