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Uroboros posted:Yeah, my point was more about that general strategy isn't what gets people, but forgetting small rules that can make or break a game. It was the difference between a dead Guilliman and dead Stormlord. I was more fishing for a story than anything. That sounds like a painful thing to have happen.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:59
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TKIY posted:Yeah I might be overestimating the value of the sniper barge, but with the Staff it looks like a good combo? Could swap the Cryptek and Szeras, have to see how the points work out. I definitely want to keep the Veil so I'm down a CP for the relics with the barge too. I'd have to drop one wraith to fit in Szeras and a Lord. I'll save Anrakyr and the Lychguard for when I get a Night Scythe or Monolith for beaming-in goodness.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:02
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S.J. posted:drat. Well, I'm trying to convince him to do something non-Imperial anyways. Too many of those loving armies in the game. Orks are the always the correct answer.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:06
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Pendent posted:I was more fishing for a story than anything. That sounds like a painful thing to have happen. It was how our game on the Twitch stream ended. To be honest our opponent made a big mistake by ever having it close enough to get charged in the first place, but the overwatch on 5s strat dropped G man to 2 wounds, and if I had been further away he would've survived because the flamers wouldn't of hit him.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:08
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Uroboros posted:It was how our game on the Twitch stream ended. To be honest our opponent made a big mistake by ever having it close enough to get charged in the first place, but the overwatch on 5s strat dropped G man to 2 wounds, and if I had been further away he would've survived because the flamers wouldn't of hit him. I need my Twitch Prime sub to reset so I can go back and take a look. It sounded like an interesting game to watch from the Badcast.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:15
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Broken Record Talk posted:Orks are the always the correct answer.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:32
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Oh I know. Orks are my jam. I played them for 10+ years even when they were poo poo.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:41
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S.J. posted:drat. Well, I'm trying to convince him to do something non-Imperial anyways. Too many of those loving armies in the game. Nothing in 8th is too bad to be fun in casual games tbh. If you want to finish top 10 at a GT pure GKs is a non-starter but for tooling around in semi-competitive games with friends they'll be fine. Mef989 posted:There is something pretty funny about remembering all of the "counts as" GK armies in 5th and the suggestions now of painting GK gold and using them as a "counts as" custodes army. I instinctively fear GKs purely thanks to 5th.
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Apr 5, 2018 19:52
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Orks is best.
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Apr 5, 2018 20:03
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The Sex Cannon posted:I'm always happy to chill with my 40k dad. And don't worry about Campbell. He told me in private that he is quitting the hobby due to all of the extensive and expensive surgery to become and actual space wolf. He can't do both, apparently. i told you that in confidence, daniel Artum posted:Sure I'd be up for it if you have the space, I'd worry about being bad but SRM also on the shortlist takes that pressure off. I'm really lucky to live in Boston where I can be reminded both of my badness and where I belong on just about any walk I take: 
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Apr 5, 2018 20:23
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The weird thing is they finally gave the different types of Terminator armor their own little niche uses but now nobody is gonna use them because the meta is really heavily focused around high volume multi-damage fire.
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Apr 5, 2018 20:41
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They really should have dropped the invuln and given terminators a rerollable armour save, that'd go a long way to fixing them since they'd be virtually impervious to small arms outside of extremes.
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Apr 5, 2018 20:47
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your new place is lookin good
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Apr 5, 2018 20:50
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Artum posted:They really should have dropped the invuln and given terminators a rerollable armour save, that'd go a long way to fixing them since they'd be virtually impervious to small arms outside of extremes. 3+ Armour save, but you roll 2d6. Old termies best termies.
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Apr 5, 2018 20:53
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Artum posted:They really should have dropped the invuln and given terminators a rerollable armour save, that'd go a long way to fixing them since they'd be virtually impervious to small arms outside of extremes. Terminators' problem isn't that they aren't tough enough, it's that they aren't good enough at shooting or close combat. They're more generalists, just with heavier armor. And generalists are already low value in the game before you start paying for a more expensive version of them
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Apr 5, 2018 20:55
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The best terminators are 
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Apr 5, 2018 20:59
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Fashionable Jorts posted:3+ Armour save, but you roll 2d6. Old termies best termies. Enjoy having to make 40 separate saving throws one at a time.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:01
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TheChirurgeon posted:Terminators' problem isn't that they aren't tough enough, it's that they aren't good enough at shooting or close combat. They're more generalists, just with heavier armor. And generalists are already low value in the game before you start paying for a more expensive version of them Fashionable Jorts posted:3+ Armour save, but you roll 2d6. Old termies best termies.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:02
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Just give them 4 plus invul or native FnP.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:05
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Artum posted:I half disagree, the few times they've gotten in close combat for me they've wrecked face but its extremely easy to just waste them before they can. Though they really could do with ws2+ if they're gonna be toting all -1 to hit weapons all the time. Even when they get into combat, having only two attacks and a 4+ to hit with power fists severely limits the damage they can do and it also limits the types of targets they should be taking on. Lightning claws don't really solve the problem, either. if I were tweaking them, I'd give them WS 2+ and BS 2+. Sets them apart from Primaris and Centurions, clearly marks them as veterans, and makes them significantly deadlier without requiring that you redo all their equipment
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Apr 5, 2018 21:06
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Assault terminators are ok. Regular terminators? 2 power fist swings each at 4+, or 4 bolter shots each, just isn't that impressive at 40 points a model. There's a lot of 2+ damage weapons going around that make their extra wound kinda moot. They're great at tanking small arms but that's not that impressive in 8th edition.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:11
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Der Waffle Mous posted:The weird thing is they finally gave the different types of Terminator armor their own little niche uses but now nobody is gonna use them because the meta is really heavily focused around high volume multi-damage fire. At some point I want to do a deathwing army with the different types of terminator armor. Obviously not competitive, but man Terminator armor is awesome.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:14
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Just imagine how rad Primaris Terminators would look! (Yes, I mean Primaris Terminators, not Gravis Armor.) Dude on Shapeways got his Howling Griffons-esque vehicle insignias done. I will be back to painting them in a few weeks!
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Apr 5, 2018 21:20
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Pendent posted:Enjoy having to make 40 separate saving throws one at a time. Very good point. The rule worked better when a "large" space marine force was like 20 models. Giving them something like an armour save re-roll, or resistance to AP would be pretty good, and far more interesting than just FNP or higher toughness. Or gently caress it, give them a 0+ save, so that AP 4 weapons would still be a 4+ to save on. The buff storm bolters got was a nice touch, but yeah, hitting on a 4+ with a whopping 2 attacks in melee is pretty terrible in the 8th meta. Everything else either has a dozen attacks, or hits on 2s with re-rolls.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:24
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I don't even know that Assault Terminators are particularly usable even. They're just too slow and really don't do enough damage without access to rerolls- 2 attacks base when you're hitting on 4's just isn't good enough for something that expensive. They'll do sort of OK against something really tough but struggle to get there and will likely only get to hit one thing before getting kited to death. Being good at assault these days relies on either having insane damage output (Beserkers), good mobility (anything with a jump pack) or enough numbers to soak up wounds and lock up a ton of stuff in combat (Ork Boyz). Terminators have decent durability, barely passable damage output, and are slow. Fashionable Jorts posted:Very good point. The rule worked better when a "large" space marine force was like 20 models. Exactly, yeah. If I go through the effort to get something that slow and expensive into combat they'd sure better be able to kill whatever they're fighting. I've consistently had them fail to do more than a couple wounds to anything that's worth fighting against and that's playing Blood Angels where they're wounding almost anything on a 2. Pendent fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 21:24
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Yeah, I don't know why people keep fixating on the durability. They just don't have enough damage output in either shooting or melee and even if you kit them for melee, they're too slow to chase targets around the table and don't get enough attacks/hits. Their problem is that they aren't good enough at any one thing to be worth using and that shouldn't be a surprise because they're basically "Tactical squads, only condensed into 5 models, and without ObSec"
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Apr 5, 2018 21:28
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dexefiend posted:Just imagine how rad Primaris Terminators would look! (Yes, I mean Primaris Terminators, not Gravis Armor.) Saturnine Mk. 2?
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Apr 5, 2018 21:33
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I mean sure, the buff to storm bolters definitely is nice, and is better than not having a buff. But like for the cost of 5 terminators with storm bolters and an assault cannon you can just about have two assault cannon razorbacks. They don't do shooting good enough or melee good enough to be worth what you pay for them, and you rarely need a unit to do both of those things. And they're really not tough enough to be noteworthy either. You're not going to want to hold an objective with them because a 5++ and 2 wounds doesn't actually provide that much protection against the multi damage melee and shooting options that have proliferated, and they're too expensive to do it too. Their role seems to be "Models that are ok at shooting infantry and fighting slow stuff in melee, and if you drop them in cover will shrug off AP-1 1 damage weapons". That's not a super useful role.
chutche2 fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 21:35
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I can tell you from experience that TH/SS terminators wreck my poo poo every time they manage to get into my AdMech lines.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:36
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TheChirurgeon posted:Yeah, I don't know why people keep fixating on the durability. They just don't have enough damage output in either shooting or melee and even if you kit them for melee, they're too slow to chase targets around the table and don't get enough attacks/hits. Their problem is that they aren't good enough at any one thing to be worth using and that shouldn't be a surprise because they're basically "Tactical squads, only condensed into 5 models, and without ObSec" I fixate on the durability, since that's what terminators are supposed to be. They slog forward, ever so slowly as enemy fire harmlessly glances off of their armour. Man-sized tanks if you will (they do wear Tactical Dreadnaught Armour) By having a slow, yet somewhat unkillable unit available to the space marines would fill a roll thats more interesting than another damage dealer. We already have centurions and aggressors for the firepower role.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:36
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S.J. posted:Just give them 4 plus invul or native FnP. Agreed. Blightlords play exactly how Terminators should for this reason.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:39
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Terminators already struggled to find a role *before* Primaris marines with Vanguard/Sternguard Veterans, Dreadnoughts, and Centurions, but in the post-primaris world, there's nothing that causes them to stand out.Fashionable Jorts posted:I fixate on the durability, since that's what terminators are supposed to be. They slog forward, ever so slowly as enemy fire harmlessly glances off of their armour. Man-sized tanks if you will (they do wear Tactical Dreadnaught Armour) And my point is that even if you give them FNP, they still aren't going to be worth taking. Blightlords aren't exactly killing it either. A slow, unkillable unit with subpar firepower and fighting ability is still garbage. Your unit has to actually *do* something
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Apr 5, 2018 21:39
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TheChirurgeon posted:Terminators already struggled to find a role *before* Primaris marines with Vanguard/Sternguard Veterans, Dreadnoughts, and Centurions, but in the post-primaris world, there's nothing that causes them to stand out. They can't even use that durability to hold objectives properly because they're not obsec, too. Slow, unkillable guys that are ok at shooting and ok at melee could be used as an objective holder, but they're too expensive for it and aren't obsec. And if you want to clear an objective then you want assault terminators.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:45
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TheChirurgeon posted:Terminators' problem isn't that they aren't tough enough, it's that they aren't good enough at shooting or close combat. They're more generalists, just with heavier armor. And generalists are already low value in the game before you start paying for a more expensive version of them TheChirurgeon posted:Yeah, I don't know why people keep fixating on the durability. They just don't have enough damage output in either shooting or melee and even if you kit them for melee, they're too slow to chase targets around the table and don't get enough attacks/hits. Their problem is that they aren't good enough at any one thing to be worth using and that shouldn't be a surprise because they're basically "Tactical squads, only condensed into 5 models, and without ObSec" Yeah these are good posts. There's no job a Terminator squad does that an equivalent cost of specialists doesn't do better. It's the affliction of the MEQ statline in general - they pay for all-rounder stats and good saves but most of that stuff is irrelevant in 8th compared to being able to either specialise and be amazing at one thing, or be cheap so you're another body to shovel into the grinder. There's just no need to be mediocre at two things.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:46
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PierreTheMime posted:Agreed. Blightlords play exactly how Terminators should for this reason. And honestly, they're terminators. They should have 2-3 extra special rules just for being terminators, bonuses to their bolters, overwatch, AP values on 6's, etc, etc.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:46
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chutche2 posted:They can't even use that durability to hold objectives properly because they're not obsec, too. Slow, unkillable guys that are ok at shooting and ok at melee could be used as an objective holder, but they're too expensive for it and aren't obsec. And if you want to clear an objective then you want assault terminators. They're especially useless now that Intercessors are a thing which are obsec and literally half the cost for almost the same durability.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:47
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Durable units are only good if their offensive output necessitates your opponent spending the effort to kill them.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:48
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S.J. posted:And honestly, they're terminators. They should have 2-3 extra special rules just for being terminators, bonuses to their bolters, overwatch, AP values on 6's, etc, etc. When resolving attacks against a model in this armor, reduce the armor penetration value by 2, to a minimum of 0. Additionally, reduce the damage characteristic by 1, to a minimum of 1. PierreTheMime fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 21:49
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All Marine veterans should hit on 2s...
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Apr 5, 2018 21:50
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PierreTheMime posted:When resolves attacks against a model in this armor, reduce the armor penetration value by 2, to a minimum of 0. Additionally, reduce the damage characteristic by 1, to a minimum of 1. Sure, why not? Give em three wounds even. Who cares. Terminators should be loving terrifying. Uroboros posted:All Marine veterans should hit on 2s... Seriously.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:52
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