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Expect My Mom posted:also lol that you rather blame sexual harassment jokes on an entire country's culture rather than lovely out of touch old people, you are bending so far over backwards I fully admit to not be an expert on Japanese culture, which is why i put '/anime culture' there. I am just going off what i've read and heard about Japan when it comes to sexism and homophobia which paints a picture of it being not very progressive. Obviously that could be pretty biased since it's all second hand information though. Do you have anything i can read that would change my view on that?
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Apr 7, 2018 19:07
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Seriously, there's plenty of old people who used to be super radical in the 60s and 70s (like the aforementioned student riots). Yoshiyuki Tomino is becoming more and more of a bitter old leftist with each passing year and still makes anime. I want the old team back because I feel they had a better grasp of things like that, or at least better handled the themes they tackled in their stories. Also Kazuma Kaneko is amazing and I want him to come out of the flower field.
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Apr 7, 2018 19:12
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CJ posted:Can someone who feels this way please give me an outline of how you would "fix" the story of Persona 5. I mean the game has you overthrow the government and then the 'authority' of society manifest into a god. In what way do you think it was toeing the line? Is it just that it takes an optimistic view of people at the end? Pablo Nergigante posted:The Phantom Thieves organize into a vanguard socialist party Also maybe make the only gay people in the world of the narrative into not a Sexual Assault/Rape joke? And bring in some discussion of their struggles and maybe the struggles of the various ethnic groups that Japanese society loves to poo poo on all the time (The Zainichi Gaikokujin or maybe the Ainu) Maybe make a game about how society brutalizes and abuses the most vulnerable in society actively be about the most vulnerable in society? Or just maybe have some talk about them instead of literally nothing (or in the case of LGBT people use them as a punch line repeatedly)? The game itself is supposed to be about this big cancer in society that is the power hungry, the violent, the bigoted, but it's ultimate arguments against it and their implied values and solutions to the problem make the whole criticism feel toothless. It's like the Breakfest Club, only worse because the Breakfest Club didn't advertise itself with the phrase "YOU ARE A SLAVE, DO YOU SEEK EMANCIPATION?" and then be a game mostly about faffing about and not dealing with the ills of society outside of a handful of very specific instances.
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Apr 7, 2018 19:13
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Basically if you wanna write about the political and struggles of the oppressed maybe do a little research cause most of the easy criticisms of the system have been made and made better by someone else. Hell, someone up thread mentioned Tomino and he's been doing this poo poo for nearly 50 years at this point. It's well trodden ground.
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Apr 7, 2018 19:17
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I always found it weird that you can date your teacher in a game where kamoshida exists
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Apr 7, 2018 19:18
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Manatee Cannon posted:I always found it weird that you can date your teacher in a game where kamoshida exists Yeah there's also a lot of this bullshit where they're trying to talk about what's hosed up about situations like that while also gleefully indulging in the same garbage. But like I said, moral cowards.
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Apr 7, 2018 19:23
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Thread leaps gleefully from gross virulent ageism to othering a sex worker, this troll has really brought out the best in everyone
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Apr 7, 2018 19:26
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Manatee Cannon posted:I always found it weird that you can date your teacher in a game where kamoshida exists it's so strange. here's a dungeon and entire story arc about how creepy this teacher is, now go and gently caress your meido teacher. So dumb.
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Apr 7, 2018 19:32
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also the fortune teller and doctor. e: the game up through the end of Kamoshida's arc feels so at odds with the rest in pretty much every way, whether it be tone, how you pick through dungeons, or combat difficulty. Some of that's inevitable as more options open up, but it's kinda crazy how fast any sort of resource management or tension evaporates in favor of single-runs to another lame boss. Motto fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Apr 7, 2018 |
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Apr 7, 2018 19:38
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No Mods No Masters posted:Thread leaps gleefully from gross virulent ageism to othering a sex worker, this troll has really brought out the best in everyone If it upsets you to the point where you feel the need to lie to emphasize how bad it is, then maybe just leave
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Apr 7, 2018 19:42
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Arist posted:If it upsets you to the point where you feel the need to lie to emphasize how bad it is, then maybe just leave What am I lying about? Do I really need to go back 1 page and cite some quotes of people saying all olds should be swept into the garbage, or 0 pages to cite some people who attack a sex worker before they attack the system that forced her into that position?
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Apr 7, 2018 19:46
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No Mods No Masters posted:What am I lying about? Do I really need to go back 1 page and cite some quotes of people saying all olds should be swept into the garbage, or 0 pages to cite some people who attack a sex worker before they attack the system that forced her into that position? The first of those is disingenuous as gently caress and I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to in the second because the post I think you're talking about doesn't say that at all
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Apr 7, 2018 19:48
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CJ posted:I fully admit to not be an expert on Japanese culture, which is why i put '/anime culture' there. I am just going off what i've read and heard about Japan when it comes to sexism and homophobia which paints a picture of it being not very progressive. Obviously that could be pretty biased since it's all second hand information though. Do you have anything i can read that would change my view on that? Endorph fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Apr 7, 2018 |
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Apr 7, 2018 19:50
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It's not really comparable when Kamoshida called girls into his office to sexually abuse them and the Kawakami thing is instigated entirely by Joker. If we're talking about dissonant ideas though, the biggest one for me was Ann's big moment being how she wasn't just a sexual object, and then the rest of the game she was just "the sexy one" who wore a latex body suit and stuck her butt in the air when she fell over. I feel like they should have made her thing be wanting to be actress rather than a model so she could use that skill to help out the phantom thieves. It would have probably tied in better with the reclaiming her sexuality thing if she used her acting skills and looks to be "the woman in the red dress" as part of a scheme or something.
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Apr 7, 2018 19:53
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Arist posted:The first of those is disingenuous as gently caress and I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to in the second because the post I think you're talking about doesn't say that at all I think they're trying to concern troll and make me saying "It's a little hosed up that they allow you to date your teacher both given the power dynamics involved in such a relationship and the fact that it follows an arc explicitly about how those power dynamics are often abused and how bad that is" to be me attacking her for working at a Maid Cafe. NMNM isn't very bright or concern trolling, either way ignore them.
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Apr 7, 2018 19:53
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Arist posted:The first of those is disingenuous as gently caress and I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to in the second because the post I think you're talking about doesn't say that at all I'll give you that the hatred of sex workers on this page is implicit, but I really don't think I'm reaching when people post "old people are garbage who belong in the garbage can", "old people are bad, hth", "even if some good old people die, gently caress it the lord will sort em", etc. etc. I guess if the posts are being made ironically that makes it disingenuous to point out that the content is disgusting?
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Apr 7, 2018 19:54
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Yeah, this is the dude who says ironic ageism towards the middle-aged is a real systemic issue, makes sense
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Apr 7, 2018 19:54
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No Mods No Masters posted:What am I lying about? Do I really need to go back 1 page and cite some quotes of people saying all olds should be swept into the garbage, or 0 pages to cite some people who attack a sex worker before they attack the system that forced her into that position?
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Apr 7, 2018 19:54
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CJ posted:It's not really comparable when Kamoshida called girls into his office to sexually abuse them and the Kawakami thing is instigated entirely by Joker. It's still bad because the power dynamics are still absolutely hosed up and skewed to one side of that relationship. Just because it's a teenage boy and an older women instead of the other way around doesn't make it better and it DEFINITELY not any better because "Well he was asking for it!"
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Apr 7, 2018 19:56
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I don't feel bad for making fun of old people because old people have made my life and countless others worse by refusing to understand why they should care about other people. There are cool and good people. There just aren't a lot of them, so I'm not picky about who age takes at this point. I love my grandma but the good woman has some narrow-minded ideals. this is to say nothing about people in Politics.CJ posted:I fully admit to not be an expert on Japanese culture, which is why i put '/anime culture' there. I am just going off what i've read and heard about Japan when it comes to sexism and homophobia which paints a picture of it being not very progressive. Obviously that could be pretty biased since it's all second hand information though. Do you have anything i can read that would change my view on that? I also don't like the idea that sexual harassment and queer-phobia and media is strictly a Japanese thing and that American media doesn't have it either.
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Apr 7, 2018 19:59
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Endorph posted:nobody is saying that kawakami is a bad person for being a sex worker, just that it's weird you, the 16 year old protagonist, can engage in a romantic relationship with her, a woman that has to be pushing 30 at least. this isn't even a criticism of kawakami, but of the writers. heck, it doesn't even relate to her being a sex worker. all of the super weird social link stuff would probably work better if the series was willing to let you make mistakes, even. like okay sure you can hit on your teacher and then there are some negative consequences to that course of action. or maybe she even turns you down no matter how many times you select the top dialogue option. this is of course impossible because persona is the mainstream franchise now. how i long for the more mature and nuanced days of lovecraft references and mechahitler.
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Apr 7, 2018 20:07
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:It's still bad because the power dynamics are still absolutely hosed up and skewed to one side of that relationship. Just because it's a teenage boy and an older women instead of the other way around doesn't make it better and it DEFINITELY not any better because "Well he was asking for it!" It's obviously bad in reality but in the context of the game there's barely a power dynamic between Joker and Kawakami so i don't have a problem with it. If they made an update with a female protagonist i wouldn't suddenly have a problem with it if it was a male teacher if it was presented the same way either. I don't think the situation is comparable to Kamoshida using his power to pull girls into detention so he can rape them or whatever is implied.
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Apr 7, 2018 20:08
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Expect My Mom posted:I'll totally admit Japan is a conservative country, that's true. But Persona 5 is an extremely mainstream video game and mainstream media does not always reflect the ideals of a nation and it's people Like it's not perfect or the wokest thing ever, but like, it's a thing that exists in a very mainstream thing in Japan and is pretty inoffensive at worst. There's politicians and VAs and singers and stuff who are openly gay/trans and like, obviously they deal with some poo poo but they're still visible members of society. Japan has tons of issues in relation to LGBT rights and its cultural perceptions of LGBT people but its not some hellhole where literally nothing positive involving an LGBT person can ever exist, and a lot of its issues are due to Japan's politics being highly controlled by conservative old people due to a lack of youth engagement in politics (and a lack of youth in general). And that isn't some ageism thing, just that when you have the same people in power for thirty, forty years, even the people in that group who once seemed progressive read as kind of conservative, and people who started out conservative suddenly seem draconian. Politics progress as time goes on, and while obviously some people keep up with that as they age, it's pretty rare. The actual cultural attitude towards these things is trending positive, and there are some steps being taken on a legal level. It's just that there's no driving political force for it in the system, not that Japan doesn't have a thriving LGBT community or that there aren't a whole lot of people who don't really get it but just see gay people as people without thinking that much about it. Heck, even ignoring wokeness and just focusing on it as a gag, the gay gags in Persona 5 are just... old? It'd be like playing a slick modern triple A game and then the characters suddenly start doing a punch and judy routine as if this is just how jokes in slick modern products aimed at teens are.
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Apr 7, 2018 20:09
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Endorph posted:Heck, even ignoring wokeness and just focusing on it as a gag, the gay gags in Persona 5 are just... old? It'd be like playing a slick modern triple A game and then the characters suddenly start doing a punch and judy routine as if this is just how jokes in slick modern products aimed at teens are. this got to me too like, does anyone actually still find this stuff funny, it's frigging amateur hour at this point
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Apr 7, 2018 20:17
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Endorph posted:Even by extremely mainstream standards Persona 5 is insanely out of touch in terms of how it depicts stuff like that. Like My Hero Academia is one of the biggest manga running in Japan and it has some random side character whose bio just mentions that he's a transman who got surgery a long time ago, and like, weird thing to toss in there and I guess there's a gag of him being in a team that's all-female except for him and thus having the same goofy cat outfit the girls do, but they're never really played as weird or off-putting or anything and the fact that they're trans doesn't even come up in the narrative near as I remember, it's just a random thing tossed into their character info page. If anything the implication is that he joined the team before he was out and when he came out to the team they didn't kick him out or anything they just reoriented their shtick, which is kind of sweet in an understated way. Like, there are definitely some unwoke things that could be read into those characters, but it's very obvious that the author's heart is in the right place. Terper fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Apr 7, 2018 |
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Apr 7, 2018 20:18
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Terper posted:There's also a scumbag villain who consistently and intentionally misgenders another trans person in Hero Academia, which is explicitly pointed out to be a Real Bad Thing by other characters.
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Apr 7, 2018 20:21
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CJ posted:It's obviously bad in reality but in the context of the game there's barely a power dynamic between Joker and Kawakami so i don't have a problem with it. Lol duder we're talking about how the writers seem a little oblivious and missing the point a lot. The context of the game going "No this ones okay, please don't worry" is exactly what we're referring to as bad writing. Like I specifically called it out as trying to have its cake and eat it to because the writers try to downplay to hosed up elements of the gross poo poo they find 'acceptable.'
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Apr 7, 2018 20:21
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Endorph posted:Even by extremely mainstream standards Persona 5 is insanely out of touch in terms of how it depicts stuff like that. Like My Hero Academia is one of the biggest manga running in Japan and it has some random side character whose bio just mentions that he's a transman who got surgery a long time ago, and like, weird thing to toss in there and I guess there's a gag of him being in a team that's all-female except for him and thus having the same goofy cat outfit the girls do, but they're never really played as weird or off-putting or anything and the fact that they're trans doesn't even come up in the narrative near as I remember, it's just a random thing tossed into their character info page. If anything the implication is that he joined the team before he was out and when he came out to the team they didn't kick him out or anything they just reoriented their shtick, which is kind of sweet in an understated way.
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Apr 7, 2018 20:25
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CJ posted:I think it's mainly an american thing to hate police. There's not much animosity towards them in the UK. You mean the filth?
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Apr 7, 2018 20:26
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im pretty sure cj and no mods are just trolling, you guys
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Apr 7, 2018 20:32
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I think it's fair to expect the writers would have grown a little in the near decade gap between Persona 4 and Persona 5.
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Apr 7, 2018 21:01
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With Makoto as Police comissioner and Ren as Prime Minister they pull off a surprise and reform Japan as a socialist utopia together.
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Apr 7, 2018 21:06
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TurnipFritter posted:I think it's fair to expect the writers would have grown a little in the near decade gap between Persona 4 and Persona 5. They made your female teacher a romance option instead of the butt of many un-funny jokes. If that's not progress, what is? (seriously, die-hard P4 fanboy here but every joke at the expense of Hanako and Kashiwagi is the death of comedy)
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Apr 7, 2018 21:10
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The p4 teacher jokes didn't even work internally because they had her voiced by one of the sexist voices in anime dubbing and also made her look like a milf.
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Apr 7, 2018 21:12
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Mr. Mooroka is the true hero of P4
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Apr 7, 2018 21:12
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P3 had your teacher telling you how she liked young guys and couldn't concentrate because she fantasised about you over the MMO too.
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Apr 7, 2018 21:14
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Ibram Gaunt posted:The p4 teacher jokes didn't even work internally because they had her voiced by one of the sexist voices in anime dubbing and also made her look like a milf. Yeah that was the weirdest thing. Mary-Elizabeth McGlynn is amazing and they tried to have her character be portrayed as some ugly old hag
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Apr 7, 2018 21:20
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CJ posted:P3 had your teacher telling you how she liked young guys and couldn't concentrate because she fantasised about you over the MMO too. It was also bad there.
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Apr 7, 2018 21:21
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CJ posted:P3 had your teacher telling you how she liked young guys and couldn't concentrate because she fantasised about you over the MMO too. Yes and I'm glad they realized they hosed up and finally let me gently caress the teacher in P5.
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Apr 7, 2018 21:21
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:It's still bad because the power dynamics are still absolutely hosed up and skewed to one side of that relationship. Just because it's a teenage boy and an older women instead of the other way around doesn't make it better and it DEFINITELY not any better because "Well he was asking for it!" I’m going through the thread and this may no longer be relevant but in this particular case Joker had the ability to absolutely destroy her reputation from the start and they acknowledge it E: which would still make it really skewed either way TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Apr 7, 2018 |
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Apr 7, 2018 21:35
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