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Ok, so just to clarify something for me: On mixed units (say Astra Militarium), with the heavy weapon team in the infantry units, how do wounds work? If that unit takes 2 wounds, he can assign one wound to a Guardsman and one to the Heavy Weapons Team. So he'd lose a Guardsman and have a wound on the Heavy Weapons team, right? My opponent isn't required to assign both wounds to the Heavy Weapons Team because wounds are assigned prior to damage and they don't spill over, correct?
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Apr 8, 2018 01:51
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I thought each model rolled individually? No, per vehicle rules you roll 1d6 per model disembarking, after all the disembarking is done, and for every 1 you choose a model to kill.
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Apr 8, 2018 01:53
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I thought each model rolled individually? Nah, the rules say you disembark everything, then roll a D6 for each model, and for each 1 you have to remove a model, but it's not done model-by-model or unit-by-unit
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Apr 8, 2018 01:54
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Dawgstar posted:So I really like you can make a Prophet of Flesh Haemonculus Warlord that just won't die. His Obsession means his Invulnerable save is 4+. Neat. He can take the Nightmare Doll which means that Inured to Pain works on a 4+. Cool. And as a Warlord trait, he can have Master Regenerist which lets him heal D3 wounds at the start of each turn. There is a lot of neat stuff for Covens among warlord traits, obsessions, strategems, but I don't know if it's enough to make them viable. I feel like the other stuff is just so much better point for point. I also loooooooove the coven models, but $36 for 5 wracks? 
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Apr 8, 2018 02:03
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I don't know if it's any good, but it delights me.
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Dawgstar posted:So I really like you can make a Prophet of Flesh Haemonculus Warlord that just won't die. His Obsession means his Invulnerable save is 4+. Neat. He can take the Nightmare Doll which means that Inured to Pain works on a 4+. Cool. And as a Warlord trait, he can have Master Regenerist which lets him heal D3 wounds at the start of each turn. Auto-Healing D3 wounds per turn is awesome. Tech-Priests get that too. Really fun. I want to make a brute squad of just 5 Techpriests that run around healing themselves and each other. The dark Eldar one sounds amazing though, since you get additional buffs.
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Apr 8, 2018 02:24
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EvilBeard posted:Ok, so just to clarify something for me: Have to remove whole models where possible. So if you put 1 wound on the team the next wound would also have to go there. I’m not next to the rule book but I’ve never seen it done any other way.
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Apr 8, 2018 02:24
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:There is a lot of neat stuff for Covens among warlord traits, obsessions, strategems, but I don't know if it's enough to make them viable. I feel like the other stuff is just so much better point for point. I feel like taking a pack of Prophets of Flesh Wracks would make great objective grabbers and holders, but we'll have to see when I actually play such things out.
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Apr 8, 2018 02:31
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kommisar posted:Have to remove whole models where possible. So if you put 1 wound on the team the next wound would also have to go there. I’m not next to the rule book but I’ve never seen it done any other way. He would be removing one, the Gaurdsman. I think my question boils down to, is he required to put both wounds on the Heavy Weapons Team, or does splitting them 1 and 1 follow the way the rules of Hit->Wound->Assign->Save->Damage? So if you have a unit of models with multiple wounds, when you take 2 wounds, do you put one on each and then resolve damage? So, a unit of 4 models that take 2 wounds takes 2 wounds from an attack. None of them have any previous wounds on them. You assign one each to two of the models. Say they were D3 damage. Each rolls 1. You now have half the unit with 1 wound on them. Then you have to wound those models until they are slain. I think I thought myself into circles arguing about this while drinking tonight. I was a bit tilted by my Dragoon getting 1 shot off the field. EvilBeard fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 03:16
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EvilBeard posted:He would be removing one, the Gaurdsman. As long as you put the first wound on the guardsman, then yes. You have to remove one model before moving on to putting wounds on the next.
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Apr 8, 2018 03:24
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kommisar posted:Have to remove whole models where possible. So if you put 1 wound on the team the next wound would also have to go there. I’m not next to the rule book but I’ve never seen it done any other way. Just to be clear: I assume the same goes for Celestine? If she has taken damage, you have to keep putting wounds on here even if both her Geminae ressurected?
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Apr 8, 2018 03:36
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GET INTO DA CHOPPA posted:Just to be clear: Yes. That's something you need to be quite careful about when using her.
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Apr 8, 2018 03:38
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EvilBeard posted:He would be removing one, the Gaurdsman. There are no guardsmen in a Heavy Weapons Team. The Heavy Weapons Team is a single model with 2 wounds, a lasgun and a heavy weapon. EDIT: Oh, I see what you're saying. You're talking about an infantry squad with at least 1 guard model and 1 hwt. Yes, you can assign one wound to the guard model (removing it) and one to the hwt (not removing it).
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Apr 8, 2018 03:47
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This whole conversation has me questioning if I've been doing multiple wounds wrong. edit: though in this case its really easy to read the rules as allocating all of the wounds first and then rolling saves, which would be an insane boost of survivability for models with 2W units. Der Waffle Mous fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 03:48
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I just called a game after 5 hours or so at the bottom of turn three. It turns out that a poxwalker heavy Death Guard list against a deliberately soft Primaris heavy Blood Angel list can drag on for loving ever. My opponent had this gigantic blob of Poxwalkers he was buffing up to S5/T5 that he kept adding more bodies to and most of my killing power was lost when a standard Nurgle Demon Prince managed to tank Captain Smash using Honor the Chapter along with a 10-man squad of Death Company. I was significantly ahead on points when we called it because I was playing objectives while he marched down the field trying to kill stuff but goddamn did it take a stupidly long time to play. Edit: Oh, I should add that my Intercessors buffed by the Standard of Sacrifice vs the big blob of buffed was the most hilarious slap fight. Even with smite and the like raining down I was making FNP after FNP save but couldn't make any real headway against the horde of T5 Poxwalkers. Pendent fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 04:11
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Der Waffle Mous posted:This whole conversation has me questioning if I've been doing multiple wounds wrong. Technically all attacks are supposed to happen sequentially, and doing multiple attacks at the same time is just a way to shortcut. If anything like that benefits the defending player then it's not there with different sequencing.
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Apr 8, 2018 04:17
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I've been thinking hard about the kabals, cults and covens and here are my conclusions: Kabals: They're all great. They're all so great that any option is good, you can't go wrong. However, Black Heart deserves some special discussion: - They give 6+ FNP to vehicles which makes them unambiguously the best vehicle kabal. - Raiders can transport DRUKHARI infantry, not <Kabal> infantry - A lot of Black Heart's greatness is in its Warlord Trait and Stratagem. The conclusion here is that Black Heart is a fantastic Kabal to take a single detachment of consisting of a single archon, a single warrior squad, and all of your army's Raiders. Add some dirt cheap characters or beasts to add slots for Raiders. All the others are, again, amazing. Obsidian Rose is probably best for footslogging DE, but Flayed Skull's ability to ignore cover is incredible for all your many 0-AP weapons, and Serpent's Kiss is probably best if you want to get right into someone's face. Cults: Cursed Blade and Strife are the big two contenders. Red Grief is cool but really gimmicky, and its gimmick relies on its stratagem. And while it is cool to jump out of a raider, kill everyone, and then backflip back onto the raider, you can only do it with a single 10-Witch squad at a time. While Cursed Blade naturally lends itself to the big 20 girl blob of Wyches, and is definitely what you want if you're intending to run more than a single big unit of them, I think the Cult of Strife is actually the best pick here for a single unit of 20 Wyches + 12 Reavers. Here's why: - You need a way to deal with morale on your big Wych blob. You have one! Everyone gets Insane Bravery as a 2CP stratagem and while 2CP is a lot, Dark Eldar actually have tonne of CP due to dirt cheap troops. - This cost drops to effectively 1CP on battle round 3 when you can use Architects of Pain to push them to Round 4 fearless. Round 4 and onwards you've got fearless anyway. - Your Wyches will be charging or be being charged 100% of the time - Strife's stratagem is bananas good. Especially for Reavers. Being able to dart them 18' over your opponents screens, put 4 blasters into a tank or a character, and then put four more blasters into something else? Plus the 16 splinter shots you get as a bonus, /and/ the followup charge, is utterly monstrous. - Also Reavers bladevines are Strength 4 regardless of modifiers so they get nothing from the +1 strength. Covens: I think the Prophets of Flesh +1 Invuln is the best choice for their intended role. What your Coven detachment brings is: - +1d3 command points - Infantry that are tougher than plague marines with T5/4++/6+++ - 1/2 the price of plague marines. - The ability to Tide of Traitors their way back to full health in the enemy's backline if they somehow do take casualties. So I'm in favour of 4 Kabal detachments, 1 Strife detachment, one Prophets of Flesh detachment. Thanqol fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 04:21
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Stanyer, your yellow mans are v handsome
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Apr 8, 2018 04:27
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Pendent posted:I just called a game after 5 hours or so at the bottom of turn three. It turns out that a poxwalker heavy Death Guard list against a deliberately soft Primaris heavy Blood Angel list can drag on for loving ever. My opponent had this gigantic blob of Poxwalkers he was buffing up to S5/T5 that he kept adding more bodies to and most of my killing power was lost when a standard Nurgle Demon Prince managed to tank Captain Smash using Honor the Chapter along with a 10-man squad of Death Company. I was significantly ahead on points when we called it because I was playing objectives while he marched down the field trying to kill stuff but goddamn did it take a stupidly long time to play. Jesus, unless I'm at home drinking and bullshitting while playing the game I don't know how a game could last that long.
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Apr 8, 2018 04:28
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panascope posted:
Cross post
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Apr 8, 2018 04:34
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NovemberMike posted:Technically all attacks are supposed to happen sequentially, and doing multiple attacks at the same time is just a way to shortcut. If anything like that benefits the defending player then it's not there with different sequencing. Ah. OK, so the other example I had, you'd roll for damage and assign wounds removing 1 model for the 2 D3 damage rolls, because while wounds are assigned before damage, they should be done one at a time, so do the multiple wounds one at a time removing the proper number of models. Bonus: finally got the last few colors needed to finish Cawl. It's been a long week of painting. 
EvilBeard fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 04:35
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So let's say I can get an Armiger for 40 bucks. Is it worth picking up to convert into a Mega or Meka Dread?
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Apr 8, 2018 04:49
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S.J. posted:So let's say I can get an Armiger for 40 bucks. Is it worth picking up to convert into a Mega or Meka Dread? They seem a bit small for that.
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Apr 8, 2018 05:52
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:They seem a bit small for that. Bigger than a regular dread, smaller than a knight?
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Apr 8, 2018 06:12
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What’s the generally best loadout for a hive tyrant in this brave new world of 8th? No “it depends on your army” responses please because so far that is my army, but the SC! box is probably next. I answered the siren call of the Hive
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Apr 8, 2018 07:08
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It's going to be hard to answer that question until the next FAQ/Errata drops because flying Hive Tyrants are going to get some sort of a nerf but who knows what else might happen at the same time.
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Apr 8, 2018 07:18
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S.J. posted:It's going to be hard to answer that question until the next FAQ/Errata drops because flying Hive Tyrants are going to get some sort of a nerf but who knows what else might happen at the same time. Awesome, thanks for letting me know. Will hold off on assembling until then!
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Apr 8, 2018 07:20
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Thanqol posted:I've been thinking hard about the kabals, cults and covens and here are my conclusions: I guess my big question here is, with Strife what are you getting out of the 20 Wych blob out of deep strike? Wyches have no natural way to solve the 9" charge problem, and Red Grief gives them their best bet of doing it since they gain the charge re-roll - which combined with the option for the CP re-roll gives you (IIRC, I'm bad at binomial distributions) something like a 70% chance of making the charge instead of 28% (e: using Architects of Pain I guess? can you do that since they're not on the board?). Same for the Reavers, there's a lot of value also in being able to Advance and charge when it means you get a 26" move out of it. I think you're also overstating the value of the Strife stratagem - you have to kill a unit, and your average damage from 4 blasters (assuming you didn't advance) is 6. That isn't enough to kill any vehicle worth killing (maybe a single Scout Sentinel or Kastelan Robot), and your opponent is going to have to be dumb as poo poo to let you snipe a character that way. Obviously this comes down to target priority and softening something up for them first, but that also increases the points of failure in the plan, whereas you get quite a lot of certainty from a 26" base move before charging. Re: Kabals, I envision the core of Kabals as warriors in boats making GBS threads out splinters and darklight all over the place - on which basis Flayed Skull is the clear winner, since you up the mobility of the boat, get the re-rolls to hit and ignore cover (who wrote that, it's an insanely good bonus). I'm thinking my LGT list (which can't take advantage of the Patrols spam) might be Ravagers + Archon in a Black Heart detachment so they get the FNP and access to Agents, and then him with the re-roll 1s Relic so that he's giving them re-rolls to hit and wound by just hanging out at the back, then the rest of the Kabals in Flayed Skull. Living Image fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 08:40
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The thing about deep striking and being left standing there holding your soft bits in hand in front of a gun line is that if you haven't got sacrificial distraction bait then you are going to get shot by everything then counter charged immediately. Then there are some armies you probably don't want to deep strike against. Like Custodes or Tyranids who will likely be welcoming you with open arms. Transports and fast attack have their place, is what I was trying to say but badly. DancingShade fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 09:03
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DancingShade posted:The thing about deep striking and being left standing there holding your soft bits in hand in front of a gun line is that if you haven't got sacrificial distraction bait then you are going to get shot by everything then counter charged immediately. There's something to be said for how fast the army is, since you can conceivably drop the Wyches out of the webway when you've already pushed 12 Reavers and a ton of Raiders in their face and shooting at Wyches isn't the top priority, but a big part of their purpose is to pop out and clear screening chaff and non-Red Grief ones aren't that good at it. Here's my first thoughts for LGT: Det 1 (Flayed Skull) - Battalion Archon (blast pistol, huskblade) Archon (blast pistol, huskblade) Warriors (10, 2 blasters, 1 splinter can) x2 Warriors (5, 1 blaster) Venoms (2 splinter cans) x5 Det 2 (Black Heart) - Spearhead Archon (blaster, huskblade) - Warlord with Labyrinthine Cunning, Relic for re-roll 1s Ravagers (3 dark lances) x3 Raiders (1 dark lance) x4 Voidraven (void lances, missiles) Det 3 (Prophets of the Flesh) - Patrol Urien Rakarth (will get the Prophets WT) Wracks (10) I have 44pts spare but not quite sure where to go with them yet. I'm trying to keep this to roughly things I already own to minimise buying - the only things I don't have are 1 of the Raiders, Drazhar and the Incubi. The tournament restrictions are 3 detachments, no duplicate types, so you can't do Patrol spam or any more than 3. What this gives me is 13 moving dark lances, 9 of them on Ravagers being supported by an Archon with re-roll 1s to hit and wound bubbles and all with 6+ FNP, 3 blasters + 2 pistols also moving about and firing off the boats, 12 splinter cannons and a shitload of rifles all on platforms which let them re-roll 1s to hit, and a tough home objective sitter. Probably the biggest question is around the Drazhar/Incubi combo - they're 200pts which can probably be better spent, potentially on a Voidraven. e: Yeah that's way better with a Voidraven actually. Living Image fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 09:16
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Corrode posted:I guess my big question here is, with Strife what are you getting out of the 20 Wych blob out of deep strike? Wyches have no natural way to solve the 9" charge problem, and Red Grief gives them their best bet of doing it since they gain the charge re-roll - which combined with the option for the CP re-roll gives you (IIRC, I'm bad at binomial distributions) something like a 70% chance of making the charge instead of 28% (e: using Architects of Pain I guess? can you do that since they're not on the board?). Can't re-roll a re-roll.
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Apr 8, 2018 09:30
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adamantium|wang posted:Can't re-roll a re-roll. I know, but you have better odds if you can choose to re-roll everything (e.g. if you roll a 1 and 2) or to re-roll a single dice (e.g. a 1 and a 6, just pick up the 1) than only having one or the other.
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Apr 8, 2018 09:47
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Corrode posted:There's something to be said for how fast the army is, since you can conceivably drop the Wyches out of the webway when you've already pushed 12 Reavers and a ton of Raiders in their face and shooting at Wyches isn't the top priority, but a big part of their purpose is to pop out and clear screening chaff and non-Red Grief ones aren't that good at it. By my count you have more transports than you need - I’d wonder about trying a unit of mandrakes instead of a venom/the spare points, as they would provide a spooky harassment threat. Otherwise this looks fairly filthy, Black Heart archons being able to become mini guilleman then surround themselves with ravagers is utterly bullshit. The only question I have is how well it deals with 150 cultists or ork boyz, both of which seem to be a thing in the uk meta. I came away from BB wanting to reduce my anti tank in favour of more anti chaff.
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Apr 8, 2018 10:18
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One_Wing posted:By my count you have more transports than you need - I’d wonder about trying a unit of mandrakes instead of a venom/the spare points, as they would provide a spooky harassment threat. Yeah I just realised that taking out the Incubi meant there was a redundant Raider. Swapping the Raider out and putting the Incubi back in to ride a Venom, or putting Mandrakes in, seems like a strong choice. As for cultists etc. I guess it's 1 part having 144 splinter cannon shots per turn and 1 part running away with my magical 19" move Venoms and the Fly keyword. Not having much/any screening does concern me, but not as much as it does with a more static list.
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Apr 8, 2018 10:36
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Corrode posted:Yeah I just realised that taking out the Incubi meant there was a redundant Raider. Swapping the Raider out and putting the Incubi back in to ride a Venom, or putting Mandrakes in, seems like a strong choice. Yeah so I’d read the number next to the venoms as 2 rather than 5, which goes a long way to mitigating this, Now I’m back to comparing the craftworld book to this and weeping.
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Apr 8, 2018 10:42
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One_Wing posted:Yeah so I’d read the number next to the venoms as 2 rather than 5, which goes a long way to mitigating this, The Craftworld book is still hella good, but probably has worse internal balance. Mostly it's just not as interesting, it added back a bunch of standard Eldar bullshit but didn't do much very creative. Hopefully I'll get a chance to test the list this week against a fairly hard DAngels/Custodes, which should be a good check of its capabilities.
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Apr 8, 2018 10:48
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Corrode posted:The Craftworld book is still hella good, but probably has worse internal balance. Mostly it's just not as interesting, it added back a bunch of standard Eldar bullshit but didn't do much very creative. Yeah 100% - I don’t thing there’s any single unit in the DE codex quite as good as dark reapers, but I’d trade that in a heartbeat for a better set of options across the board, especially as I don’t like running spam armies. The fact that almost every melee option sucks at killing stuff (other than shining spears, but they need quite specific targets to earn their keep) is also vexing - thanks to the obsessions, an 8 pt wych will probably now outkill either of howling banshees and striking scorpions. It’s also much harder to build a list that can attack all kinds of armies, and I think your list above showcases how the incredible cheapness of some of the DE stuff lets you build a very resilient army with limited weaknesses. Even flyrant spam is going to be given pause by you being able to kill ~2 flyrants a turn with splinter shots alone.
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Apr 8, 2018 10:54
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Corrode posted:I guess my big question here is, with Strife what are you getting out of the 20 Wych blob out of deep strike? One hundred and twenty attacks?* I dunno, the step two of my plan is just "and then you roll one hundred and twenty dice and something dies." Maybe I'm a latent Ork player because that is the conclusion of my thought process. * 2 base +1 weapon +1 strife +1 drugs +1 hyperstim backlash. On the turn with WS2+ that's 33 armour saves at -1, or, 17 wounds off a Knight for 170 points, 2CP and an even-odds charge roll. quote:Wyches have no natural way to solve the 9" charge problem, and Red Grief gives them their best bet of doing it since they gain the charge re-roll - which combined with the option for the CP re-roll gives you (IIRC, I'm bad at binomial distributions) something like a 70% chance of making the charge instead of 28% (e: using Architects of Pain I guess? can you do that since they're not on the board?). Same for the Reavers, there's a lot of value also in being able to Advance and charge when it means you get a 26" move out of it. You don't need to drop them on the first turn. I'm thinking of spending the first turn very cautiously, picking off screening units and staying out of LOS and then bringing in the Wyches when they've got a clear run at something worth spending 120 attacks on. And turn 2 -everybody- gets a charge re-roll from Power From Pain so Red Grief only seems worthwhile for trying to get a crazy turn one footslogger charge. And I don't think Dark Eldar want a turn one anything. With PFP being what it is I easily envision my first few turns being lurking behind terrain features, using Fire And Fade to keep dudes out of LOS and then suddenly springing into the middle of everything when the moment is right. quote:I think you're also overstating the value of the Strife stratagem - you have to kill a unit, and your average damage from 4 blasters (assuming you didn't advance) is 6. That isn't enough to kill any vehicle worth killing (maybe a single Scout Sentinel or Kastelan Robot), and your opponent is going to have to be dumb as poo poo to let you snipe a character that way. Obviously this comes down to target priority and softening something up for them first, but that also increases the points of failure in the plan, whereas you get quite a lot of certainty from a 26" base move before charging. I'll have 6-8 Dark Lance shots across the board from the raiders and mounted warriors before I need to declare my shooting with the jetbikes, getting another 4 of them by doubling my blaster shots is essentially a 50% increase in my anti-tank firepower for the turn. And 6 unsaved wounds is a great deal for 3CP. You're right about making sure targets are softened up before pulling the trigger on the reavers, I hadn't considered that side of things. Thanqol fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 12:07
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S.J. posted:Bigger than a regular dread, smaller than a knight? They seema bit skinny, butif you bulked them out and orkified them. I could see it working.
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Apr 8, 2018 12:07
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How do armigers stack up to relic contemptors? Looks like similar durability with a decent melta weapon and faster but worse in close combat than a contemptor chainfist.
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Apr 8, 2018 15:42
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Thanqol posted:One hundred and twenty attacks?* Yeah one of my flaws as a player is being over-aggressive with deep strikers and I hadn't considered the PfP table, so that's fair enough re dropping on turn 2 with the charge re-roll. That actually makes me want to reconsider my list to throw in a Wych bomb and Lelith instead of the Mandrakes/Urien/Wracks but I'm not sure how valuable the Wyches are vs. the objective huggers and potential CP bonus. Something to think about, I can see a few situations where the Wych bomb goes badly wrong and you end up with 20 girls hanging out in the open ready to be gunned down. I'll try it in a couple of games and see. I don't agree at all on the Reavers though. 8 dark lances is average 12 wounds against one Rhino or equivalent (ignoring re-rolls or whatever, but I don't think you've mentioned any source of them). With the D6 damage that's very swingy, and there's going to be a lot of times when you end up failing to hurt a vehicle enough for the blaster Reavers to finish it off, or alternatively you spike it and kill the thing in one go. It's a strategy which every few games will produce great results, but for me it's not reliable enough to be effective compared to definitely getting to boost 26" across the board and assault a bunch of stuff, which is where Red Grief really shines. The fact that this stuff is even a debate is a good sign for the book though. Living Image fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 16:04
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