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fart simpson posted:So you’re saying you’d rather have a type of government corruption where nothing gets done rather than government corruption that results in lots of useful infrastructure? Somehow I don’t think you’d be complaining if Germany was building “too many” high speed rail lines Tell me more about how authoritarian regimes are great because they can build lots of railroads. I hear that they can make them run on time too!
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Apr 9, 2018 01:30
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Well we aren't talking about "is China's government better than Canada's government" overall. You were talking about a choice between the elites enrich themselves through graft on development contracts and the elites enrich themselves through seeking rents. I know which one I'd pick
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Apr 9, 2018 01:37
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The Great Autismo! posted:the Shinkansen in Japan is a lot better than the high speed trains in China, but it is a lot more expensive. This is good as you get people who sit there quietly and read as opposed to a fat smelly guy on one side of you watching a Korean drama on his phone loudly with no headphones on, and an elderly person on the other side of you that has taken off their shoes and socks and is clipping their toenails Agreed, Shinkansen is better because No Poors Allowed even though it's basically the same in other ways
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Apr 9, 2018 01:38
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fart simpson posted:Well we aren't talking about "is China's government better than Canada's government" overall. You were talking about a choice between the elites enrich themselves through graft on development contracts and the elites enrich themselves through seeking rents. I know which one I'd pick The first is only "better" if you assume that more infrastructure is always good, which it isn't, especially when non-elites have literally zero say in its construction.
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Apr 9, 2018 01:42
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Are the grope trains not HSR?
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Apr 9, 2018 01:52
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More infrastructure is always good, even if it's not always an optimal use of resources
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Apr 9, 2018 01:53
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fart simpson posted:More infrastructure is always good, even if it's not always an optimal use of resources Only in video games.
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Apr 9, 2018 02:04
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Fojar38 posted:Only in video games. Easy for you to say when a fair amount of people in the world still don't have electricity, running water, public transportation. Whether it's a slow train, fast train, traffic jam long distance bus, intercity public transportation gave people a lot of opportunity to literally get out of poverty. There are lots of other environmentally destructive infrastructure projects you can mention, but HSR is really one of the lesser one. fart simpson posted:More infrastructure is always good, even if it's not always an optimal use of resources Not always, water management projects like : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea
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Apr 9, 2018 02:31
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I never liked the Aral Sea anyway
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Apr 9, 2018 02:40
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caberham posted:Not always, water management projects like : The interesting thing about the Aral Sea was not only was it an ecological disaster but really fundamental to Central Asian states surviving through the post-Soviet breakup (and a reason why water levels only accelerated their decline after 1991 into late 2000s). Kind of goes back to the issue of China, can populations survive beyond borderline starvation without ecological damage?
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Apr 9, 2018 02:58
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I don't post in the thread too often Fojar but you're basically tilting at windmills here and it's baffling. You've asserted that there are "probably" many lines of rail/public transportation infrastructure in China of poor use for every useful one without evidence. As someone who lives in Canada I think I can for damned sure say that a line that barely anyone uses is still a good thing, I used to be able to take the train from Rigaud to Montreal for school/work, it'd be the one train 6 am in the morning and be back 6 pm at night but you know what it let me go to school from my podunk middle of nowhere failed tourist trap that only survives thanks to the Federal customs college and from desperately sucking on the transcanadian highway for trucker money. You know what I can't do anymore? I can't take the train anymore. Why? Because it's 300,000$ a year that our shithead corrupt incompetent mayor doesn't wanna pay because not enough people use the train; our train stop is discontinued, I'm not even sure if the train even stops in Hudson, maybe a little. He's so bad even my dad I think tried to run for mayor against him. It forced me to move downtown, it made it impossible to continuing living in Rigaud while still being able to interact with Montreal. So you don't get to lecture me one "useful allocation of resources", I would've liked to be able to still take the train; and I bet there are a lot of people in China who find those "inoptimal" trains to be useful and convenient.
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Apr 9, 2018 04:26
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Forjar hates everything chinese. He expects a country where people were routinely experiencing famines 50 years ago to have its problems solved already. If China had no trains it must be a sign of how backwards the chinese are. Because there are a profundity of high speed rail lines now they must be a sign of profligacy because they're chinese. What the chinese do or don't do is immaterial, the fact that they exist is enough to make him melt down.
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Apr 9, 2018 04:30
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So is infrastructure why there’s no Aral Sea anymore or would more infrastructure have stopped the Aral Sea from going away? It’s not clear what the Aral Sea has to do with trains in China.
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Apr 9, 2018 04:35
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Peven Stan posted:Forjar hates everything chinese. He expects a country where people were routinely experiencing famines 50 years ago to have its problems solved already. If China had no trains it must be a sign of how backwards the chinese are. Because there are a profundity of high speed rail lines now they must be a sign of profligacy because they're chinese. Fojar can be pretty obsessively negative about China, but I'm pretty sure he'd say that the counter-example of Taiwan shows that China's problems are due to its government, not the inherent backwardness of "the chinese."
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Apr 9, 2018 04:36
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Pirate Radar posted:So is infrastructure why there’s no Aral Sea anymore or would more infrastructure have stopped the Aral Sea from going away? It’s not clear what the Aral Sea has to do with trains in China. I think the idea is that infrastructure for infrastructure's sake without a thought to need or sustainability can result in disasters like the Aral Sea. Trains are a pretty good and safe investment though.
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Apr 9, 2018 04:42
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It took my parents like 2 days to get to beijing by rail in the 1980s, now it takes 9 hours. The same amount of time it takes someone to travel from st. louis to chicago by rail in the US.
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Apr 9, 2018 04:50
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Silver2195 posted:Fojar can be pretty obsessively negative about China, but I'm pretty sure he'd say that the counter-example of Taiwan shows that China's problems are due to its government, not the inherent backwardness of "the chinese." Doesn't Taiwan have a bunch of bunkers and defence stuff they aren't using that have no economic utility, but only some potential hypothetical use? I think maybe an argument could be made about a double standard being applied.
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Apr 9, 2018 04:59
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Raenir Salazar posted:Doesn't Taiwan have a bunch of bunkers and defence stuff they aren't using that have no economic utility, but only some potential hypothetical use? I think maybe an argument could be made about a double standard being applied. I think this is a weird comparison because you could say the same about any country’s military expenditures.
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Apr 9, 2018 05:10
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Pirate Radar posted:I think this is a weird comparison because you could say the same about any country’s military expenditures. Right, I'm making the argument that to be consistent Fojar should also be complaining about those but isn't.
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Apr 9, 2018 05:16
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Raenir Salazar posted:Right, I'm making the argument that to be consistent Fojar should also be complaining about those but isn't. So he’s in the clear if he also criticizes every country that has a military.
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Apr 9, 2018 05:36
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Except China, I suppose, since that would be doubling down and that’s unfair. So he can either criticize China’s infrastructure spending or its military spending.
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Apr 9, 2018 05:37
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Surely the Heavenly Emperor wouldn't waste money on prestige projects that have no real value or benefit
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Apr 9, 2018 05:43
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Darkest Auer posted:Surely the Heavenly Emperor wouldn't waste money on prestige projects that have no real value or benefit No, Mexico will pay for the wall.
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Apr 9, 2018 05:45
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/982954355509907457 when's the XI-Trump golf charity invitational just let me be POTUS already it can't be that hard
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Apr 9, 2018 06:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:Doesn't Taiwan have a bunch of bunkers and defence stuff they aren't using that have no economic utility, but only some potential hypothetical use? I think maybe an argument could be made about a double standard being applied. I'm sure that Taiwan would be perfectly happy to have to spend less on defense, it's almost as if there's some reason they need to fortify themselves. Wonder what it could be... 
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Apr 9, 2018 06:07
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Context is key. China developing a competent HSR network does not obfuscate the fact that it has a authoritarian government, substantial problems in freedom of press/expression, a crumbling environment, human rights violations etc etc. Regarding the network itself now, the notion that the Chinese are building "railroads to nowhere" is ludicrous. For reference, here are the actual ridership numbers as more lines are coming online.  As I pointed out in an earlier post, they are methodically constructing a network that is designed to link all major cities in the country with a cheap, dependable and fast (for the citizen, not just the elites) high speed rail service. Their original plan (4+4) is pretty much complete, and they are moving on with the 8+8 plan (8 major lines west-east, 8 lines north-south).  This is the "good" stuff. For the bad stuff, see this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Corruption_and_concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Wenzhou_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Slowdown_in_financing_and_construction Dante80 fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Apr 9, 2018 |
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Apr 9, 2018 07:01
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Peven Stan posted:Forjar hates everything chinese. He expects a country where people were routinely experiencing famines 50 years ago to have its problems solved already. If China had no trains it must be a sign of how backwards the chinese are. Because there are a profundity of high speed rail lines now they must be a sign of profligacy because they're chinese. so this is where you fail in Rappaport’s Rule. Fojar is harsh on China, but it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Peven Stan posted:What the chinese do or don't do is immaterial, the fact that they exist is enough to make him melt down. that is such a dishonest representation of ANYTHING he has ever posted. It’s really bad
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Apr 9, 2018 09:04
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Dante80 posted:Context is key. China developing a competent HSR network does not obfuscate the fact that it has a authoritarian government, substantial problems in freedom of press/expression, a crumbling environment, human rights violations etc etc. Thanks for this post. Good stepping off point for reading.
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Apr 9, 2018 13:57
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Is it called 高铁 (Gotye) because it's high speed or because it's on viaducts.?
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Apr 9, 2018 19:53
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Arglebargle III posted:Is it called 高铁 (Gotye) because it's high speed or because it's on viaducts.? The former I think, short for 高速鐵路.
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Apr 9, 2018 20:50
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trains are really good
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Apr 9, 2018 22:48
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China building lots of good train is good. People using this as evidence that oppressive dictatorships are maybe a good idea because they can "get things done" is where these lovely choo-choo fans get a bit problematic.
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Apr 9, 2018 22:52
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Hitler built highways so he was really bad. Hope this helps.
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Apr 9, 2018 23:04
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Baronjutter posted:China building lots of good train is good. People using this as evidence that oppressive dictatorships are maybe a good idea because they can "get things done" is where these lovely choo-choo fans get a bit problematic. But its not a dictatorship, there's elaborate power sharing between the national government and regional governments. There are elections in China where people have as much choice as they do in the US
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Apr 10, 2018 02:44
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Peven Stan posted:But its not a dictatorship, there's elaborate power sharing between the national government and regional governments. im glad you’ve upped your game from “linking to infowars” to “linking to the wikipedia article on chinese elections” you deserve a pay rise to a full rmb per post imo
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Apr 10, 2018 03:08
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Peven Stan posted:But its not a dictatorship, there's elaborate power sharing between the national government and regional governments. I'm truly curious why you think your link supports the point you tried to make. Did you just blindly link Wikipedia, thinking the mere existence of elections represents a genuine choice?
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Apr 10, 2018 03:21
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Peven Stan posted:There are elections in China where people have as much choice as they do in the US Please don’t say such mean things about China in this thread.
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Apr 10, 2018 03:30
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Peven Stan posted:But its not a dictatorship, there's elaborate power sharing between the national government and regional governments. Gee, if it was already so democratic then why would the people in Wukan start a riot over elections? Well the turn out at the worked out so well huh?
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Apr 10, 2018 03:31
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hypnophant posted:I'm truly curious why you think your link supports the point you tried to make. Did you just blindly link Wikipedia, thinking the mere existence of elections represents a genuine choice? They have about as much choice as americans do.
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Apr 10, 2018 03:31
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I agree with Pevan Stan
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Apr 10, 2018 04:01
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