Crabtree posted:

Well he is a Republican so I'm always curious at how bloodthirsty the man can be, combined with his speed that we are still hearing about everything he's done when its far to late to stop it as its already occurred days, if not months ago, save for Trump having the balls to just mass fire everything.

And if not Mueller, what about Rosenstein or the FBI as a whole, after a year or two of being poo poo talked by the administration and the right over and over, just snapping right around October.

Bubbacub posted:

Didn't that flavor get invented by a janitor at the company? I've never tried them, but it's a story

Griffen posted:

Speaking as a Christian from the South, I think a bigger issue is that the religion as a whole has been dumbed-down by Evangelicals. Tim Keller did an interesting article outlining how Evangelicals have stopped being evangelical, that is, the political block no longer represents or upholds the tenets of the faith (https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/can-evangelicalism-survive-donald-trump-and-roy-moore). It is a sad joke now how Evangelicals failed the most absurd of hypothetical tests: would you support a known philanderer, would you support a legitimately accused child molester? The fact that the GOP and its Evangelical wing came out in full-throated support of Trump and Roy Moore shows just how fall they've fallen.

To me, it stems from the fact that Evangelicals don't really understand Christianity, so of course they don't practice it. Growing up, most sermons I heard involved what not to do, but very little about to do. When you look at Christianity from a perspective of wrongs, you begin to judge people by wrongs. Add onto that our human nature to want to see ourselves in a good light, we'll craft that to where we look at other people's faults to such an extreme extent so we don't see our own. Case in point is homosexuality and "the defense of marriage." Marriage is a sacrament, and yes, it should be defended. Yet notice how quiet Evangelicals are about adultery? Infidelity, financial woes, mid-life crises - these are all far more likely to end a marriage than one of them somehow being overcome by "the gay agenda" or something. Yet homosexuality is trumpeted and banged on the war drums far more than adultery. My hunch is that is because more Evangelicals are likely to have their own infidelities (and thus don't want to call attention to it) than are homosexual themselves - thus it is a perfect distraction for them to base their cognitive dissonance on, i.e. "I'm better than those gays."

The problem is, that's not how Christianity works. Even if there was a massive Gay Agenda (TM) based out of 'Frisco, I as a Christian shouldn't care. The apostle Paul wrote in 1st Corinthians 5:12-13 "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked person from among you.'" as an instruction that we're not the world's moral police. Christians are to witness what we know, but we have no right or authority to impose the Gospel onto others. If Christianity was supposed to usher in some theocratic nation-state, Jesus would have done it himself. Likewise, you don't hear too many Evangelicals trumpeting Jesus' line from Matthew 22:37 “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Evangelicals have lost this. These aren't hidden messages, or ambiguous teachings. You don't need a theology degree to understand this, but most Evangelicals are ignorant of it, because to them Christianity is no longer an obligation on their own actions in fealty to God, but a measuring stick to prove their worth over other people and a political cudgel.

In the past few years Evangelicals have done more damage to the Christian message than since probably the Jim Crow era, at it really bothers me. The Atlantic had a good article about how they got here, but it reads like a preventable tragedy (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/04/the-last-temptation/554066/). I think a good observation to point out is that the more liturgical denominations (Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, etc.) tend to be a bit better about staying evangelical, and not Evangelical, as there is less focus on "everything is open to your own interpretation."

evilweasel posted:

https://twitter.com/JTSantucci/status/983718041035988992

i think trump is starting to realize how hosed he is if he doesn't even think he can talk his way out of this anymore

Soonmot posted:

So basically Mueller is Ozmandias and Trump is Night Owl?

dogtax is my avatar

Xae posted:

Every time Dukat says "I did it for Cardassia" mentally replace it with "I did it for the Reich" and see if he is "morally grey".

Xae posted:

Every time Dukat says "I did it for Cardassia" mentally replace it with "I did it for the Reich" and see if he is "morally grey".

canepazzo posted:

Speaking of , this is hilarious:

https://twitter.com/politicalmiller/status/983690174415687680

I imagine Trump will withdraw Pompeo's nomination now.

TulliusCicero posted:

Gul Dukat's whole excellent morally gray character got ruined by the dumb over the top pah wraith villain garbage and it makes me sad

Crow Jane posted:

Yeah, Reverend Richard Wayne Gary Wayne of Indiana

Prester Jane posted:

Thank you very much for this post, this is exactly the sort of introspection and open conversation that I personally feel Christianity in the US needs right now. While I myself am not a Christian and have no intention of joining the church, I was very much raised as a Christian and indeed was raised in the heart of the Evangelical political machine. I genuinely think that posts like yours above, (and the discussions they will hopefully Inspire amongst other Christians)- are one of the healthiest things the average Christian can do for our country right now.

So again from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

AvesPKS posted:

Aww man, for half a second I thought there was a Mr Show sketch I'd never seen before.

Griffen posted:

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

Everyone thinks "If people just read christianity and the bible right they'd have the same values as me!". On all sides. The bible says enough stuff you can justify anything and declare anyone as doing it wrong. (and I'm applying this to both evangelicals with their readings AND people saying "evangelicals aren't real christians, if they read the bible right they'd have my exact faith!"). Every denomination thinks they read the bible right. It's not a useful part of an argument.

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

I just realized I mentally switched gul dukat and garrick and I was freaking out at the bad opinions this thread had.

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

I just realized I mentally switched gul dukat and garrick and I was freaking out at the bad opinions this thread had.

evilweasel posted:

I don't believe any of those people sign off on this without convincing themselves with the evidence they already have that they could convict Cohen of serious crimes. And I don't believe you get his communications with Trump without each one of those people also convincing themselves that (assuming Trump was a private citizen and could be prosecuted) that they'd convict him as well. And every one of those people knew they'd face substantial political blowback anyway, even if the search uncovered a literal dead body. And they all know the longer a gap between the search and when they bring whatever charges they're contemplating, the more severe that blowback gets and the more likely it is Trump manages to fire key people to try and derail it.

Trump just got treated like a mob boss, and his lawyer just got treated like a mob lawyer, very publicly, by a number of people who had every reason not to do that unless they could back it up. Some bad poo poo for Donald Trump is going to go down, and it's going to go down soon.

Crow Jane posted:

I mean, you should probably watch The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt regardless

Arglebargle III posted:

Dukat was never morally grey, he was just superficially charming. He was already a genocidaire and a serial rapist before he went nuts. People thinking there was some good to the character because he was charming is why they had to make him chew the walls.

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

Everyone thinks "If people just read christianity and the bible right they'd have the same values as me!". On all sides. The bible says enough stuff you can justify anything and declare anyone as doing it wrong. (and I'm applying this to both evangelicals with their readings AND people saying "evangelicals aren't real christians, if they read the bible right they'd have my exact faith!"). Every denomination thinks they read the bible right. It's not a useful part of an argument.

ReidRansom posted:

So, now he knows they know what he knows, and so he can't lie about it. lol

TulliusCicero posted:

If it's anything like the Catholics I know, they despise him.

Most catholics in the US are socially liberal at this point, and definitely fiscally liberal.

cochise posted:

Oh neat.

https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/983720452412575744

theflyingorc posted:

The reason that religiosity in America is cratering is 2 reasons:

1. Their overall attitude towards gay people
2. Their reprehensible politics outside of that

The Southern Strategy has done more to destroy the American church than basically anything else. They're killing themselves.

Chilichimp posted:

Why the gently caress wouldn't he just ask Condoleeza Rice or Colin Powell? Oh, right.

Nevermind guys, I put it together.

quote:

But now that Pompeo faces a tough confirmation process to become secretary of state himself, he has reached out to Clinton and Kerry, as well as every other living occupant of the office, to ask for guidance. Clinton, for one, has been willing to help.

evilweasel posted:

https://twitter.com/JTSantucci/status/983718041035988992

i think trump is starting to realize how hosed he is if he doesn't even think he can talk his way out of this anymore

cochise posted:

Oh neat.

https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/983720452412575744

Bicyclops posted:

Those are definitely two very, very different characters.

evilweasel posted:

I think that it's basically the end of the beginning. It's worth reiterating how big a deal this raid was. As Trump's people put it: Cohen was just very publicly treated like a mob lawyer. Everyone involved knew this was going to be national news, reviewed personally by the President, and get attacked by his allies. They had an incredibly high bar to clear even if Trump wasn't involved, and when Trump is added into the mix, then jesus. Take Mueller out, he's already pissed off Trump as much as possible. The other people who signed off on this were:

1) Rosenstein, a Trump appointee who knows that Trump continually considers firing him
2) The head of the DOJ criminal division, likely a Trump appointee
3) The Trump-donor, Trump-appointed, former law partner of Rudy Guliani US Attorney for SDNY who is an interim appointee and almost assuredly will not get the official nomination now. Approving this basically cost him his job.
4) A federal magistrate judge and/or a federal district judge (usually magistrate judges handle search warrants, but they are legally speaking basically just assistants to the district court judge - in a case of this magnitude I think it's possible that the district court judge independently reviewed and signed off on this rather than rubber-stamp the magistrate judge decision).
...

Trump just got treated like a mob boss, and his lawyer just got treated like a mob lawyer, very publicly, by a number of people who had every reason not to do that unless they could back it up. Some bad poo poo for Donald Trump is going to go down, and it's going to go down soon.

BarbarianElephant posted:

Since Mexico is a very Catholic country, Catholics are likely to have in their social circle people who have been hurt by xenophobia.

cochise posted:

Oh neat.

https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/983720452412575744

Crows Turn Off posted:

We're about to destroy Syria, aren't we?

evilweasel posted:

He did:


What's newsworthy is he reached out to Democrats as well as Republicans. He didn't only reach out to Democrats.

Hollismason posted:

It's always bizarre to me that "Evangelical" Christians point to Leviticus to condemn homosexuals but never pay attention to the OT stuff about immigrants and how they should be treated.

evilweasel posted:

this isn't really true

the thing about the new testament is that what Jesus said was very simple and internally consistent. love thy neighbor, judge not lest ye be judged, etc. to get at all the nasty stuff that people have used Christianity to justify over two millennia you really have to ignore what Jesus says in favor of (a) the old testament, which Jesus specifically repudiates to the extent that it conflicts with his teachings, and (b) commentary in the New Testament by not-Jesus which is commentary by people who are not Jesus and even if you want to interpret everything as divine writ, you need to then interpret what they're saying as consistent with what Jesus said rather than the other way around.

there's a lot of things where you can argue over the bible despite that and maintain consistency with jesus's teachings. if you are entitled to salvation through works or grace, for example, is a very tricky theological question which has strong support in what Jesus said on both sides.

but when people say that evangelicals are not real Christians, they (and I) mean that evangelicals specifically disregard the overriding themes of Jesus's message. it's not a question of interpreting the bible differently, it's a question of an interpretation that simply cannot be squared with the text. you can't hate immigrants, hate blacks, hate the idea of charity to the less fortunate, and follow what Jesus preached. those are not compatible, full stop. you cannot justify a philosophy of hatred and division by reference to the bible without using an interpretation that is wrong.