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KakerMix posted:Since when did the Vive controllers become hot garbage? Mine seem to be just peachy with their cool white-from-my-walls battle damage. I dunno I can't keep up with the hot VR memes. It's more that the Touch controllers are a masterpiece of ergonomics in comparison; the one thing I really don't like on the Vive wands is the touchpads from the Steam Controllers which were just never a good idea in the first place and I seem to hear about Vive wands breaking in various ways when the Touch controllers seem seriously indestructible (and much cheaper to replace just in case). Also I complained when I first heard the Touch controllers were going to use a single AA in each but they pulled off some straight up voodoo poo poo where they last for 6 loving months with near daily use for me.
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Apr 10, 2018 23:16
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My Vive controllers were also partially hosed from the start (there was an early firmware update that helped, but the same top right quadrant on both of mine are fucky), so they're fine for simpler stuff, but games with more complex interactions that need the touchpad to work as anything but just a button ranges from mildly to extremely frustrating, and that's ergonomics, low number of buttons, and a bad grip button aside. Edit: I do still think they're better for guns though
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Apr 10, 2018 23:25
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KakerMix posted:Also what's up with you guys turning via the controllers in Skyrim rather than just physically turning your body? That's the point of VR right? Sometimes I play while sitting, and would rather not tangle the cord around my chair. Pro tip: setting the max player height in the .ini to ~50 will let you adjust your height to eye-level while sitting with motion controllers. Default max is 10.
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Apr 10, 2018 23:29
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Ciaphas posted:Anyone have both a tpcast AND a vive deluxe audio strap? Wondering if they'll play nice together form factor wise before I buy the strap. Yeah, they're fine together.
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Apr 11, 2018 01:15
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Vive Pro showed up today. I'm not sure if I'll even have time to play with it tonight, but there's one thing I can say for sure. If you've got a big noggin (7 3/4 hat size) and wear glasses, it's a huge improvement. My glasses are wide and inflexible metal and to put the old Vive on I'd take my glasses off, cram them into the Vive about where they needed to end up, then put the Vive on, then grab the temples of my glasses and push them forward or back until they got to a comfortable spot. The Pro I can just put on how you're supposed to (put it up to your face, flip the headgear backwards). It doesn't get caught on my glasses and mash them into my face or press the temples into the side of my head.
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Apr 11, 2018 01:24
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rage-saq posted:The Lighthouse system is probably better overall, but right now it’s a trade off of slightly larger tracking area (Vive) over slightly less occlusion due to more sensors (3 or 4 with Rift). Out of curiosity, how is it that Lighthouses are so much better? Rift needs 3 sensors to do adequate roomscale and then maxes out an entire USB controller and then some to transmit all the data, and the Lighthouses are just like lol, shoot some lasers, beam it all over to the PC with no cable whatever.
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Apr 11, 2018 03:25
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While the Oculus Rift is probably the superior complete package at the moment, I still think the Vive has (or at least the potential for) the far better long-term ecosystem. With the Oculus Rift, what you get is largely all there is to it as a complete device until whenever Version 2 gets made. And then you're quite possibly buying the whole thing a second time. The Vive, on the other hand, rolled out with an unused second USB port on the headset and told developers "have at it". Already we're starting to see stuff like foveated lens inserts and wireless adapters that can be just mounted onto an existing headset. There's also a bunch of weird and interesting brain-interface stuff being tried by developers, and all they've done is mount and plug their prototype to the existing HMD. There's no doubt a Version 2 would integrate a lot of that, but it's not the end of the world for existing owners who can ship-of-theseus their way up. Even the Vive Pro, despite its obscene price, just plugs in nicely to the existing desktop box and Lighthouses.
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Apr 11, 2018 03:37
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Ciaphas posted:Anyone have both a tpcast AND a vive deluxe audio strap? Wondering if they'll play nice together form factor wise before I buy the strap. As Edison said, they work but TPCast is a pain in the rear end. It's OK when it works, but I literally spent hours (yes HOURS) getting it to work a dozen times or so. After all of the hassle I just returned it and will hope for a better version sometime soon. Also there are serious downsides even when it does work. The green line sucks, causing you to change where you place the lenses so it's not directly in your line of sight (but you can still see a reflection of it). The weight on your head makes the headset way less comfortable. All and all if it was free I would have kept it but hate the hassle.
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Apr 11, 2018 03:53
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Phenotype posted:Out of curiosity, how is it that Lighthouses are so much better? Rift needs 3 sensors to do adequate roomscale and then maxes out an entire USB controller and then some to transmit all the data, and the Lighthouses are just like lol, shoot some lasers, beam it all over to the PC with no cable whatever. It's because they use completely different systems. The Rift has those 3 camera look at lights on the HMD and controllers, while the Vive just does math. The lighthouses send out light in a predictable pattern and then the HMD and controllers look at when the lights pass specific sensors and can determine the exact position that way. This is also part of the reason you get months of battery life out of Touch controllers and hours of battery life out of Vive wands.
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Apr 11, 2018 03:55
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It's a very elegant system, and probably has a long life in it with the v2 being able to support multiple stations in a large area, for experience VR or arcade setups. Its a bit of a dead end for home users in the long run, but it's a great gen 1 solution.
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Apr 11, 2018 04:08
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Phenotype posted:Out of curiosity, how is it that Lighthouses are so much better? Rift needs 3 sensors to do adequate roomscale and then maxes out an entire USB controller and then some to transmit all the data, and the Lighthouses are just like lol, shoot some lasers, beam it all over to the PC with no cable whatever. The sensors for the Rift are on the Outside looking In. The sensors on the Vive are Inside looking Out. Right now, that gives the Vive a better overall experience, in exchange for cost. Each tracked item (headset, wands, puck, etc.) is riddled with sensors which are looking for the beams put out by the dumb lighthouses. It's not entirely unlike the old tracking systems where a sensor, typically a webcam, would look for a QR code or B&W marker to guide it. The difference here is that the marker is a properly timed IR laser grid. You have a lot less chance of occluding the sensors enough to ever lose tracking. The math is done on the devices themselves, as well, so the only thing that gets sent to the computer is positional data. Any number of tracked objects can be within the same volume, though more and more do add more chances for occlusion. The Rift, however, has better potential in the open-ended future with its constellation system. In constellation, the "dumb" devices aren't the lighthouses/sensors placed around the room, the dumb devices are the objects being tracked. The headset and controllers are riddled with IR LEDs, which pulse in time and in certain patterns. The sensors are actually IR cameras, which pipe video data to the PC very quickly. The CPU then interprets the video, taking note of which LEDs are on and where they're located. The current constellation system only supports so many LEDs and patterns, and can only track one additional object at the moment (typically a third controller.) It's this piping of video from each sensor that takes up so much bandwidth. Where the constellation system has a greater potential future over the lighthouses (for at-home VR, anyway) is the fact that it relies on computer vision. While both systems require "help" to allow the sensors to determine where they are and keep track of their environment and the objects they're tracking, there are already headsets out there that do not require markers to maintain both rotational and positional tracking. Constellation can potentially grow into a system like the Kinect, without the need for IR grids or patterns to track objects. I wouldn't be surprised if, within 10 years, we see computer vision systems that allow an entire human body to be tracked just from a few cameras, for instance. Computer vision is advancing rapidly, and facebook (thus oculus) has the money to throw around. Not having to equip awkward pucks on your feet and hips would be a nice change.
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Apr 11, 2018 04:33
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but facebook gonna know how my dick looks e: full-body tracking means that if i play naked mark zuckerberg will personally stare at my penis while i play
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Apr 11, 2018 04:42
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:but facebook gonna know how my dick looks sold
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Apr 11, 2018 04:44
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Ciaphas posted:Anyone have both a tpcast AND a vive deluxe audio strap? Wondering if they'll play nice together form factor wise before I buy the strap. They work fine together. I actually uninstalled my tpcast because a lot of the games I've been playing lately are either seated or forward facing and it's a bit of a hassle getting it up and running every time you wanna play something. If I ever get a hankering for more Serious Sam, Onward or anything else where being wireless is desirable it won't take me too long to set it back up.
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Apr 11, 2018 04:46
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I bought a Vive like 6 months ago but hardly used it for anything, a little bit of Subnautica(which made me kind of sick) and some Elite Dangerous(which didn't make me sick at all). I saw Skyrim VR was released recently and was excited because I have 1000 hrs in Skyrim but never played SSE. When I learned mods were compatible I bought it but after playing the first 20 minutes of the game I seriously felt like I needed to throw up. I went to work the next day and posted a thread on the Steam forum for the game asking if anyone could help me out, and it was suggested that I stand up to play rather than sit. It has made all the difference, I can go for like 90 minutes before the Vive strap digging into my skull forces me to take off the headset, but no simulation sickness. So if anyone is like me and doesn't have VR legs yet and you happen to be sitting down, try standing and see if that helps.
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Apr 11, 2018 05:19
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Phenotype posted:Out of curiosity, how is it that Lighthouses are so much better? Rift needs 3 sensors to do adequate roomscale and then maxes out an entire USB controller and then some to transmit all the data, and the Lighthouses are just like lol, shoot some lasers, beam it all over to the PC with no cable whatever. I didn’t say they were much better, and for the time being I would argue based on the results the Rift with 4 sensors is clearly superior. As I mentioned the Vive approach (a gen1 assisted inside out system) has some drawbacks. 1 being that it puts a lot of the sensing and processing equipment inside the HMD and controller, which is a large part as to why the Vive wands are so bulky and inferior to the Touch controllers. 2 being that it was designed for only 2 sensors, which introduces occlusion issues that cannot be solved because you cannot add more sensors. With both systems if your turn towards 1 sensor and your back blocks the other sensor you drop from dual precision tracking to single precision tracking which will cause a small tracking glitch. If you always have at least 2 sensor precision by having more than 2 sensors you never run into this problem and in fact increase tracking quality by reducing jitter from having 3 or more sensors. Various jitter and accuracy tests have shown the rift is within margin of error compared to the Vive with 2 sensors and better with 3+.
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Apr 11, 2018 05:21
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Both of the current tracking systems have limitations. Though with Lighthouse you don't have to run USB cables around/over your space. I really hope Oculus comes up with a solution for full controller tracking with inside-out HMD tracking for Rift CV2. Or hell, inside-out controller tracking... Neddy Seagoon posted:While the Oculus Rift is probably the superior complete package at the moment, I still think the Vive has (or at least the potential for) the far better long-term ecosystem. With the Oculus Rift, what you get is largely all there is to it as a complete device until whenever Version 2 gets made. And then you're quite possibly buying the whole thing a second time. The Vive, on the other hand, rolled out with an unused second USB port on the headset and told developers "have at it". Also what are foveated lense inserts?
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Apr 11, 2018 09:53
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I have a Rift and it's a huuge pain in the rear end setting up Oculus Sensors are for roomscale. I've got it down to a science in my own house now but trying to take it anywhere, yeesh. The stands have a tendency to fall over especially since there's a cord attatched to the top and you probably have it across the room. Even if they don't fall it's easy for them to move. You could put it on a tripod, which is nice but now you have to bring a tripod (plus the USB cord + extender). Overall, for roomscale it's not exactly elegant. I swear wireless sensors would almost be better than a wireless headset right now. Of course we're in gen 1 of VR so I don't think this is that bad, but the Vive seems a little easier to set up and go. The controllers are so good though that it's probably worth it. Seriously, Oculus Touch controllers are a marvel in design. There's a video from one of the previous Oculus Connects on how they designed he controller which is pretty great. https://youtu.be/7kJ409ML6_U AndrewP fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Apr 11, 2018 |
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Apr 11, 2018 14:56
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PerrineClostermann posted:Right now, that gives the Vive a better overall experience, in exchange for cost. Each tracked item (headset, wands, puck, etc.) is riddled with sensors which are looking for the beams put out by the dumb lighthouses. It's not entirely unlike the old tracking systems where a sensor, typically a webcam, would look for a QR code or B&W marker to guide it. The difference here is that the marker is a properly timed IR laser grid. You have a lot less chance of occluding the sensors enough to ever lose tracking. The math is done on the devices themselves, as well, so the only thing that gets sent to the computer is positional data. Any number of tracked objects can be within the same volume, though more and more do add more chances for occlusion. Thanks for the explanation, do you know why the lighthouses have motors in them?
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Apr 11, 2018 15:01
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I finished doom VFR last night and had my first experience of "heights related nervousness" in VR in the section where you work your way up the tower by teleporting and using the jump pads. That section is just really well done and really gives a good sense of being really high up on precarious and small platforms while cacodemons and imps are trying to knock you off. This game is way fun and deserves a second look.
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Apr 11, 2018 15:02
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Obsurveyor posted:Thanks for the explanation, do you know why the lighthouses have motors in them? Because they sweep across, like a turning lighthouse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J54dotTt7k0
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Apr 11, 2018 15:03
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Obsurveyor posted:Thanks for the explanation, do you know why the lighthouses have motors in them? As I understand it, the way the lighthouse works is it pulses IR light 60 times a second, and after each pulse it sweeps a laser through the space horizontally or vertically (they alternate). The sensors on the devices notice the IR light pulse, then time how long it takes for it to see a laser. This information is used to determine its position in 3D space. The motors are what spin the lasers so they sweep across the room. When I say "sensor," it's actually quite a simple setup. They're just plain old photodiodes.
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Apr 11, 2018 15:04
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rage-saq posted:I didn’t say they were much better, and for the time being I would argue based on the results the Rift with 4 sensors is clearly superior. As I mentioned the Vive approach (a gen1 assisted inside out system) has some drawbacks. I wasn't calling them "better" in a console warrior sense, just wanted to understand how Oculus sensor data is such an enormous load and then Vive manages it without even having to plug them into the PC. I didn't realize it was offloading most of the work into the headset and controllers, but even then, it seems like a pretty big step to manage the tracking data through controller wireless and a single USB cable that's also being used for headset data. Has Oculus made any noises about their next gen tracking? I can't imagine they wouldn't want to go with a similar model unless they've been making huge strides in paring down the needed sensor data. I'm not arguing that the Rift sensors work well enough, but it seems like a lot more overhead.
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Apr 11, 2018 15:44
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Both are chasing the holy grail of inside-out tracking using cameras capturing the area around the user, aka put it on anywhere and it works. Neither are there yet but oculus has a building with 30+ computational imaging optics doctorates feverishly working on it. Valve has ... well, rolling desks, no accountability, and people doing whatever they feel like that day.
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Apr 11, 2018 15:48
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Phenotype posted:Has Oculus made any noises about their next gen tracking? To be clear, the solution that Bhodi is talking about is implemented by Oculus in its Santa Cruz prototype, which is functional but the timeline to being consumer ready is ???? The Windows MR branded kits also handle it that way. You can google it for reviewers impressions, to see what it looks like, and so on.
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Apr 11, 2018 15:59
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Zero VGS posted:The feel of going from Touch to WMR is like going from an official Dualshock controller to one of those $10 MadCatz specials from GameStop. Aside from the cheap plastic and the fact that sometimes whacking them on a table or wall will make them shut off, they're fine.
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Apr 11, 2018 16:14
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Protocol7 posted:Aside from the cheap plastic and the fact that sometimes whacking them on a table or wall will make them shut off, they're fine.
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Apr 11, 2018 16:19
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Protocol7 posted:Aside from the cheap plastic and the fact that sometimes whacking them on a table or wall will make them shut off, they're fine. They also communicate using Bluetooth, so you need a good Bluetooth connection on your computer. I've done some VR talks and in one there was bad EM interference and the WMR controllers would hardly work (I got 3DOF but not 6DOF) while they work fine on that computer in other circumstances. For my main VR desktop, I had to get a Bluetooth USB dongle and the controllers hardly work at all. I had to get a USB extension and even then the controllers only track when within a couple of feet of the Bluetooth USB dongle. Just a heads-up that Bluetooth connection strength is the Achilles heel of WMR tracking.
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Apr 11, 2018 16:25
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Bhodi posted:Both are chasing the holy grail of inside-out tracking using cameras capturing the area around the user, aka put it on anywhere and it works. Neither are there yet but oculus has a building with 30+ computational imaging optics doctorates feverishly working on it. Valve has ... well, rolling desks, no accountability, and people doing whatever they feel like that day. But what does HTC have since they are doing most of the vive work
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Apr 11, 2018 16:28
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Phenotype posted:I wasn't calling them "better" in a console warrior sense, just wanted to understand how Oculus sensor data is such an enormous load and then Vive manages it without even having to plug them into the PC. I didn't realize it was offloading most of the work into the headset and controllers, but even then, it seems like a pretty big step to manage the tracking data through controller wireless and a single USB cable that's also being used for headset data. Has Oculus made any noises about their next gen tracking? I can't imagine they wouldn't want to go with a similar model unless they've been making huge strides in paring down the needed sensor data. I'm not arguing that the Rift sensors work well enough, but it seems like a lot more overhead. Well, for one thing, the tracking now works fine over USB 2.0. That's a lot less bandwidth needed than when they would max out USB 3.0 connections.
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Apr 11, 2018 16:29
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Protocol7 posted:Aside from the cheap plastic and the fact that sometimes whacking them on a table or wall will make them shut off, they're fine. If you have a higher standard for quality, no they are not. Serviceable yes, fine? No. For 200 bucks. They fit the package. But fine isn’t the word id use.
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Apr 11, 2018 16:43
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Stick100 posted:They also communicate using Bluetooth, so you need a good Bluetooth connection on your computer. I've done some VR talks and in one there was bad EM interference and the WMR controllers would hardly work (I got 3DOF but not 6DOF) while they work fine on that computer in other circumstances. For my main VR desktop, I had to get a Bluetooth USB dongle and the controllers hardly work at all. I had to get a USB extension and even then the controllers only track when within a couple of feet of the Bluetooth USB dongle. I can't speak to em saturated environments but in my experience wmr bluetooth has had the opposite problem where when I try to switch between computers in different rooms the controllers will pair with the previous computer they were used with. The fact they have to be in front of the headset is the worst part, you can't really use a bow and arrow realistically because it loses track of the drawing hand
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Apr 11, 2018 16:47
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Wow, Echo Arena is fuuuuun. I'm terrible at it, but the community seems to be really good at helping newbies.
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Apr 11, 2018 17:54
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For all the talk about Vive tracking, my brother had a hell of a time covering up and taking down all the pictures on the walls because the lasers were getting disrupted (disrupted as in the Vive lost tracking bad enough that it would pause the game), he spent like 3 days troubleshooting. But yeah with either tracking system, if you can put up trackers once and never screw with them then things are usually OK. Having to move rooms or take them to a friend's is a slog.Protocol7 posted:Aside from the cheap plastic and the fact that sometimes whacking them on a table or wall will make them shut off, they're fine. The touchpad and joystick just felt clunky to me and positioned/angled wrong, the grip button was like a microswitch with no travel at all, and it just generally felt uncomfortable. Yeah it works but I guess my standards are a little higher.
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Apr 11, 2018 17:56
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I really can't wait for the knuckles to come out. They seem like they'll be much better, though I don't really hate the original controllers as much as some people seem to.
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Apr 11, 2018 18:06
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WMR controllers EAT batteries. 2 hours of use and your batteries die. It's crazy.
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Apr 11, 2018 18:09
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Oh, speaking of, I actually found that I could get away just fine with setting up one Lighthouse on top of a bookcase and the other on a shelf about chest-height. Was just gonna be so I could try it all out before going out to get some stands or something, but hey the wands are never losing tracking so  .Apogee15 posted:I really can't wait for the knuckles to come out. They seem like they'll be much better, though I don't really hate the original controllers as much as some people seem to. My only complaint is the Grip button's not exactly comfortable for repeated use in long sessions. I think if/when we actually get Knuckles will be a ways off though, because the Vive Pro's not coming with them even though it's got the Lighthouse Mk.2's. If there was a proper time for a release, it would've been as a full Vive 1.5/2.0 package. They've also probably gotta redesign them a little to take advantage of the 2.0 Lighthouses.
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Apr 11, 2018 18:11
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Wow, Echo Arena is fuuuuun. Echo Arena is hands down the best VR game right now. The community really is great, there's a bunch of kids who can be annoying and there are issues with Smurfs/parties that are being worked on, but the people by and large are really great at helping new people out and being kind and creating a positive environment. If you're interested in taking part more there's a discord I encourage you to join the discord https://discord.echo.games/ also when you go into the lobby right now you get to see my big dumb face 
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Apr 11, 2018 18:15
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I think if/when we actually get Knuckles will be a ways off though, because the Vive Pro's not coming with them even though it's got the Lighthouse Mk.2's. If there was a proper time for a release, it would've been as a full Vive 1.5/2.0 package. They've also probably gotta redesign them a little to take advantage of the 2.0 Lighthouses. Vive Pro does not come with Lighthouse Mk.2 yet. They showed some new wands but there are no announced plans to release the Pro with lighthouse 2 or controllers yet. The Pro HMD has the updated sensors so it can work with lighthouse 1 or 2, but right now only lighthouse 1 are purchasable.
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Apr 11, 2018 18:15
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Stick100 posted:Vive Pro does not come with Lighthouse Mk.2 yet. They showed some new wands but there are no announced plans to release the Pro with lighthouse 2 or controllers yet. The Pro HMD has the updated sensors so it can work with lighthouse 1 or 2, but right now only lighthouse 1 are purchasable. Pretty sure the upcoming full-bundle release as the Pro, the new Wands and Lighthouses, doesn't it?
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Apr 11, 2018 18:18
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