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the palestinians elected hamas because of decades of brutality at the hands of israel. the israelis have no excuse for electing far right hawks.
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Apr 11, 2018 20:00
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Groovelord Neato posted:the palestinians elected hamas because of decades of brutality at the hands of israel.
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Apr 11, 2018 20:09
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Dead Reckoning posted:How do you square this with people arguing that Israeli civilians are legitimate targets because they support a government that targets and oppresses Palestinians? I don't think anyone's argued that in a dozen pages or more. It also seems to be off-topic, given that sitting Israeli ministers are currently declaring Palestinian civilians to be legitimate targets, and uniformed Israeli soldiers are using live fire against them.
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Apr 11, 2018 20:53
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Groovelord Neato posted:the palestinians elected hamas because of decades of brutality at the hands of israel. ... also because Fatah was corrupt.
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Apr 11, 2018 21:05
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Dead Reckoning posted:Defusing or marginalizing this bad blood would be necessary for any durable solution. The very first step to defuse the bad blood is to stop generating it. The way to stop generating it is extremely simple: full, total, complete and unconditional Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territory. Palestine becomes a free and sovereign nation with control over its airspace, its borders, its underground resources and its territorial waters. All settlements are dismantled and evacuated. As long as Israel does not do this, it should be given the status of a rogue state, subjected to UN sanctions.
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Apr 11, 2018 21:15
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Also the Palestinians didn't all vote for Hamas and aren't all supporters of Hamas.
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Apr 11, 2018 21:16
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Also the vote in question was loving twelve years ago.
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Apr 11, 2018 21:36
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Cerebral Bore posted:Also the vote in question was loving twelve years ago. Perfect, then it's time for the talking points to switch back to "Israel can't be expected to negotiate until elections are held".
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Apr 11, 2018 21:50
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Horrible Lurkbeast posted:In my idle moments I wish for some empire to form over all of the Levant, many people will die but the current regimes are just that bad. If Erdogan keeps going all-in on Ottomania you might get your wish.
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Apr 11, 2018 22:00
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Would he dress in full Lord Humongous regalia?
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Apr 11, 2018 22:05
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Dead Reckoning posted:How do you square this with people arguing that Israeli civilians are legitimate targets because they support a government that targets and oppresses Palestinians? I don't. Civilians *anywhere* are never legitimate 'targets'. Armed illegal settlers are a different situation in my mind but because they tend to have entire families with them I still don't support military action against them. quote:Why do you think that equality of arms has any bearing on moral rightness of combatants' actions? Because a nuclear power with overwhelming military advantage should be expected to observe fully the rules of warfare when engaging in military activities against a subjugated population. That elements within the subjugated population resist with patently illegal acts, should not open up widescale bombing, killings, retributions etc. The painting of both sides as equal is part and parcel of portraying Palestinians as evil; a unique threat that must be stopped. For if both sides are equal, why is only one launching rockets at houses? quote:Why do you find pointing out that there are Palestinians who want to kill/punish Israelis and Israelis who want to kill/punish Palestinians objectionable? Defusing or marginalizing this bad blood would be necessary for any durable solution. Read what I said again. There's a difference between saying 'Mohammed bin Abdullah Al-Nablusi said he wants to kill all Israelis. Here, look at what he said. This worries me.' Not racist. 'Palestinians want to kill Jews.' Racist. Equally, 'Jews eat Palestinian babies'. Racist. 'Moshe Zimmerman said that Palestinians are crocodiles who must be destroyed'. Not racist. There's temptation to say 'well, there's racism on both sides, therefore' or 'racism seems more prevalent among the Palestinians'. Regarding the former, equality of arms comes back into the equation - the fact that the Israeli government is super racist and has overwhelming military power is deeply problematic. Regarding the latter - that's generally a racist take, although the person holding it might not be racist.
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Apr 12, 2018 09:42
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There is no such thing as 'legitimate targets', now stop murdering people Bibi. 
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Apr 12, 2018 10:14
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Dommolus Magnus posted:If Erdogan keeps going all-in on Ottomania you might get your wish. Israel vs. Turkey sounds like something that should be written by the ghost of Tom Clancy. Anyone with a good ouija board?
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Apr 12, 2018 11:55
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rear end
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Apr 12, 2018 12:42
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Indeed. That was incisive commentry you got there. Have you considered a career in diplomacy? The crisis needs your particular skills.
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Apr 12, 2018 12:50
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Horrible Lurkbeast posted:Indeed. That was incisive commentry you got there.
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Apr 12, 2018 12:59
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I unironically want to get this idiot in the same room as Bibi, Ardoan and other rear end in a top hat leaders and then lock the doors.
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Apr 12, 2018 13:18
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Horrible Lurkbeast posted:I unironically want to get this idiot in the same room as Bibi, Ardoan and other rear end in a top hat leaders and then lock the doors. "This idiot" would unbirth them all.
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Apr 12, 2018 13:23
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Horrible Lurkbeast posted:I unironically want to get this idiot in the same room as Bibi, Ardoan and other rear end in a top hat leaders and then lock the doors.
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Apr 12, 2018 13:31
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this broken hill posted:absolutely world peace Bring it back, adult swim.
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Apr 12, 2018 13:55
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man, gently caress Sam Hyde posted:the Adult Swim standards department repeatedly found coded racist messages in the show, including swastikas, which were removed ahead of broadcast. E: loving die in a fire Sam hyde. posted:In 2017, Hyde reportedly pledged $5,000 towards the legal defense fund of Andrew Anglin, the founder and editor of The Daily Stormer. By popular demand fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Apr 12, 2018 |
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Apr 12, 2018 14:03
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FlamingLiberal posted:The pro-Israeli groups are doing the Jewish people a great disservice, in that they are always crying ‘anti-Semitism’ against any criticism of Israel’s actions. This then gives the actual anti-Semites cover because the smear has been overused in the wrong way. This claim is utter garbage, it's a trope that's continually repeated with zero evidence. If you look at the mainstream American Jewish groups, re: not insane people like JDL or ZOA, they're not criticizing legitimate anti-occupation groups like the New Israel Fund. They're criticizing groups like JVP that consistently apologize for and minimize anti-Semitism, that harbor insane conspiracy theories about "Zionist" control of the media or governments, that posit racist garbage, that advocate mass ethnic cleansing. The main issue I have with If Not Now is their full throated defense of the dyke march anti-Semitism (Beinart is wrong on the facts in what I linked, see the direct testimony that was posted here about the march months ago), and similarly, Louis Farrakhan. Both of those were spineless and pathetic, and destroyed their credibility. If INN was solely focused on ending the occupation, they wouldn't really be controversial at all. The mainstream American Jewish community does not shun left wing organizations like NIF, T'ruah, UFRJ, etc... Groovelord Neato posted:the palestinians elected hamas because of decades of brutality at the hands of israel. Most Mizrahim, the plurality ethnic group in Israel, are victims of mass ethnic cleansing by Muslim majority countries.* Israel was further traumatized by the second intifada, the Palestinians were in a markedly better position before that. The only hope for Palestinians is de-escalating the conflict, not pouring gasoline by supporting ethnic supremacists like Hamas. That just leads to a cycle of violence that can only end in misery for them. *By the same token, Israel should have more empathy for this reason, but it's hard to feel empathy when you're blinded by rage and revenge. Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Apr 13, 2018 |
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Apr 13, 2018 03:06
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God, just stop posting already.
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Apr 13, 2018 03:55
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Kim Jong Il posted:*By the same token, Israel should have more empathy for this reason, but it's hard to feel empathy when you're blinded by rage and revenge. I wish my boyfriend would stop hitting me, but I understand, he's blinded by rage and revenge for my perceived wrong-doing. I will strive to do better.
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Apr 13, 2018 03:58
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Lightning Knight posted:I wish my boyfriend would stop hitting me, but I understand, he's blinded by rage and revenge for my perceived wrong-doing. I will strive to do better. Your response sure is idiotic. I was arguing for more empathy, and was responding to someone justifying support for Hamas because of violence.
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Apr 13, 2018 04:06
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Kim Jong Il posted:Your response sure is idiotic. I was arguing for more empathy, and was responding to someone justifying support for Hamas because of violence. Hamas utilizing violence indiscriminately is bad, but the violence of Hamas and the violence of Israel are not equal. Hamas has bottle rockets. Israel has F-16s. Hamas makes passive-aggressive statements about Israel in public. Israel assassinates journalists with snipers and rolls tanks through the city streets to quell protests. Your "empathy" is contingent on unrealistic expectations of perfect behavior of Hamas and Palestinians generally, while you trip over yourself to minimize and downplay what Israel does at every turn.
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Apr 13, 2018 04:08
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Kim Jong Il posted:*By the same token, Israel should have more empathy for this reason, but it's hard to feel empathy when you're blinded by rage and revenge. This is nonsense; the Palestinians have a far, far, far better reason to be angry, to the extent that it's not even comparable with that of the Israelis. There's a good chance that any random Palestinian, especially if they're in Gaza, personally knows someone who has been killed or injured by Israel. Thousands will have had friends/family killed or maimed. And that's not even getting into the impact Israel's blockades, etc, have on their day to day life. The same isn't true for Israelis, who mostly are just afraid at the possibility that they might be one of the rare people unlucky enough to be hit by one of the rockets.
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Apr 13, 2018 04:32
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The only thing that I've seen the government actually react to is the BDS and I'd like to encourage this sort of popular and nonviolent resistance. The Israeli population at large is completely willing to accept the violence and terror as the cost of living, actual economic repercussions and boycotts could shift this.
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Apr 13, 2018 04:56
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Lightning Knight posted:Hamas utilizing violence indiscriminately is bad, but the violence of Hamas and the violence of Israel are not equal. Hamas has bottle rockets. Israel has F-16s. Hamas makes passive-aggressive statements about Israel in public. Israel assassinates journalists with snipers and rolls tanks through the city streets to quell protests. Violence is unequal today, but the roots of today are because of the orgy of violence during the second intifada. There was direct, clear causation between Palestinian suicide bombing and restrictions on freedom of movement. I'm advocating that Israelis need to get over it and loosen the grip. But those feelings did not come out of thin air or pure hatred. Horrible Lurkbeast posted:The only thing that I've seen the government actually react to is the BDS and I'd like to encourage this sort of popular and nonviolent resistance. BDS is collective punishment, a class of conduct that cannot be justified by any reason. And BDS is not focused on the occupation. As long as the goal of BDS is the right of return, it's advocating a profound, historic level of violence. BDS demands "resistance" (aka permanent war) until every single demand is met, compromise is collaboration. Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Apr 13, 2018 |
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Apr 13, 2018 06:11
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Kim Jong Il posted:Reprehensible bullshit. Wounding Gazans en masse during border protests simply because they're Palestinian and due to past fears is understandable, yet BDS is "collective punishment." gently caress yourself, you goddamn monster. I mean, seriously, what the gently caress is wrong with you? And don't bother quoting me and trying to make some evil argument, I want a simple answer: what problem do you have with your brain? A Terrible Person fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Apr 13, 2018 |
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Apr 13, 2018 06:29
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I'm sure we all remember how profoundly evil the Montgomery Bus Boycott was too. That poor city just trying to make sure that white folk knew they were appreciated and valued.
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Apr 13, 2018 07:17
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boycotting apartheid south Africa was also collective punishment, but it was still the morally correct choice when the alternative is economically and politically supporting a racist ethnostate imho
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Apr 13, 2018 07:33
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Using collective punishment to refer to non-violent action is stupid. Nobody has to buy products from Israel or invest in Israel and anyone is entitled to petition their government to sanction another government that performs such gross human rights violations. This is the same poo poo as people who call "not buying products from companies that advertise on Fox News" a "violation of free speech," writ large.
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Apr 13, 2018 07:38
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XMNN posted:boycotting apartheid south Africa was also collective punishment, but it was still the morally correct choice when the alternative is economically and politically supporting a racist ethnostate imho Absolutely. It's not just a moral matter, it's a matter of survival: The system just isn't working for anyone but wealthy oligarchs both here and abroad. The rest of us have to fund this insane defensive apparatus or worse, live in fear of bombs and bullets. I saw how things got worse and worse since Rabin was assassinated, politically and defensively and economically. If we don't end this war it definitely will end Israel.
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Apr 13, 2018 07:42
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Kim Jong Il posted:BDS is collective punishment, a class of conduct that cannot be justified by any reason. And BDS is not focused on the occupation. As long as the goal of BDS is the right of return, it's advocating a profound, historic level of violence. BDS demands "resistance" (aka permanent war) until every single demand is met, compromise is collaboration. This is just way too on the nose.
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Apr 13, 2018 07:52
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I remember one of the Palestinian men who attacked and killed an Israeli being shot dead during the attack, which was a reasonable response, and then the IDF demolishing his house and rendering his family homeless for literally no reason other than collective punishment, which was not Or the Hamas police chief who had his house missiled and 18 family members killed while he was at his station, a far more strategic target It's embarrassing to pretend an economic boycott is even in the same time zone as poo poo like that and everything else KJI regularly minimises and apologises for
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Apr 13, 2018 08:58
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This is your daily reminder that anyone under the age of 28 in Gaza was literally born in prison and has not been free for a single day of their life. Remember this whenever some idiot starts bloviating about how refusing to buy a Sodastream or let Ann Coulter speak at your university is literal fascism.
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Apr 13, 2018 09:54
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Guys if you don't buy from Israel then you're punishing them. Just like you're punishing Ford every time you buy a Toyota.
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Apr 13, 2018 13:25
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Also equating BDS with ‘war’ What universe are you living in?
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Apr 13, 2018 13:40
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BDS is war, but gunning down unarmed civilians is ok because they might have voted for the wrong people more than a decade ago.
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Apr 13, 2018 13:51
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