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RZA Encryption posted:I'm talking about an ideal state that currently only works in the case the car manufacturer provides the charging infrastructure. Why is that required? My car presents charge rate in (rated) km/hr when connected to any charger I’ve used it with. It’s assuming that it will have consistent power throughout the charge, but that seems reasonable.
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Apr 12, 2018 16:26
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People aren't going to micro manage charging or graciously go to the lower capacity plug if they know they need less range (see people who buy 93 octane fuel for their car because it's "premium" when it runs better on 89.) The only way this will work is if we have the highest capacity chargers that the local grid will support and then create a rate schedule that exploits human nature to manipulate people into both balancing the load but not hogging the spots. So, algorithms based on local grid capacity and demand.
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Apr 12, 2018 16:31
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Cockmaster posted:In that Bloomberg article, I noticed that even the crazy expensive S and X are outselling everything else except the Prius Prime. Why is that, I wonder? Is it simply name recognition? Or possibly the lack of high-speed charging infrastructure apart from the Superchargers? Big part could be that there are no alternatives. If you want a car with Model S specs, that is the one you'll get. Audi, BMW, Lexus, M-B, Volvo, they're pretty much interchangeable. You get the one you happen to fancy.
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Apr 12, 2018 16:33
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Subjunctive posted:Why is that required? My car presents charge rate in (rated) km/hr when connected to any charger I’ve used it with. It’s assuming that it will have consistent power throughout the charge, but that seems reasonable. Sorry, I don't think I did a good enough job of communicating this. I'm talking about before you get to the charger. Like, choosing which one to route to based on charging speed and charger availability. Imagine plugshare built into your car's nav, but every charger shows live status info and pricing regardless of brand. Now imagine the infrastructure and partnerships needed to provide this level of interoperability both between chargers and car units. That's what I think is needed, and I don't know who would do it.
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Apr 12, 2018 16:47
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RZA Encryption posted:I'm certainly not saying people can't figure it out, I'm just saying ideally the charging stations and the car would interoperate so the "miles added per hour" figure could be presented. I'm talking about an ideal state that currently only works in the case the car manufacturer provides the charging infrastructure. Going from 5 minutes at the pump to 45 minutes or more at the charger is going to be a big shift in thinking for drivers. The easier things are communicated the more likely they'll put up with it. You may have a point, but many cars already have some sort of time display, how long left to 100%. I may sound unempathetic, but I don't mean to. It's just that people use complex engineering all the time without knowing much about how it works. Making payment and queuing less annoying is a lot more important in my opinion.
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Apr 12, 2018 16:53
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Liquid Communism posted:Puts them solidly in Delorean Motor Company range for uptake! Some damning praise right there.
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Apr 12, 2018 17:06
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Ola posted:You may have a point, but many cars already have some sort of time display, how long left to 100%. I may sound unempathetic, but I don't mean to. It's just that people use complex engineering all the time without knowing much about how it works. Making payment and queuing less annoying is a lot more important in my opinion. 100% agree that payment is more important. I don't mean to imply that you aren't empathetic, just that for mass adoption the architects of the charging infrastructure shouldn't settle for "they can figure it out/get used to it". I just love thinking about this stuff and what it would take to replace even a small fraction of the gas stations in the US. I don't think it's a 1:1 replacement. The length of time at a pump or charging bay is way different, so you'd either need more bays per station or more stations. In some locations you might charge an occupancy rate when charging is complete, in others you might need a valet to keep cars cycling through the chargers efficiently. I find myself searching commercial real estate from time to time looking for abandoned restaurants, motels, or laundromats. I think you need to provide people something to do while they're there, and I think you need a variety of what you combine with the charging stations. Sit down and eat in some, coffeeshop style co-work in others. Shared space for some, private rooms for others. Problem is, as soon as you invest in a bunch of charging facilities centered on 30+ minutes of downtime, there will be a new charging standard that goes 0-10% in two minutes, and we're back to resembling a gas station.
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Apr 12, 2018 17:29
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RZA Encryption posted:Sorry, I don't think I did a good enough job of communicating this. I'm talking about before you get to the charger. Like, choosing which one to route to based on charging speed and charger availability. Imagine plugshare built into your car's nav, but every charger shows live status info and pricing regardless of brand. Now imagine the infrastructure and partnerships needed to provide this level of interoperability both between chargers and car units. That's what I think is needed, and I don't know who would do it. Waze offers some of this with gas stations, so it's still likely to be a 3rd party application. But although they have a lot of users, most people don't use it. People still get their traffic info from the radio. Yeah, actual modulation of the EM spectrum. It tells them "trucker strike means long lines at gas stations!". When you drive an ICE car and encounter a station with a cheap price and massive queues, you make a decision based on need and desire to queue up or try the empty station across the street for 5c more per liter or just keep going because you don't need to fill up right now. Or you get Waze to tell you where the cheap gas is, and see if people are reporting long lines there. Why different for electricity? Knowing all that in advance is a nice to know for some users, but it isn't need to know for all users. So integrate it into Waze, don't reinvent the wheel.
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Apr 12, 2018 17:40
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RZA Encryption posted:100% agree that payment is more important. I don't mean to imply that you aren't empathetic, just that for mass adoption the architects of the charging infrastructure shouldn't settle for "they can figure it out/get used to it". From my experience with charging away from home any time its been a Level 2 charger it hasn't been a huge concern because its been at a location I was already going to spending time at ie: shopping/movie/event/work so charging time wasn't a critical concern. When I've used a CHAdeMO fast charger I've been content to play games on my phone and listen to music while sitting in my car for the 20 or so minutes I needed to charge before I reached the charge state I needed to be at. If 20% of gas station installed a CHAdeMO or CCS charger or two on their property and there were level 2 chargers available at most shopping centers/restaurant parking lots it would make EV's viable for the majority of people. Add to that lvl1 outlets in work parking lots and even people without home charging would be good to go.
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Apr 12, 2018 17:49
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Finger Prince posted:Waze offers some of this with gas stations, so it's still likely to be a 3rd party application. But although they have a lot of users, most people don't use it. People still get their traffic info from the radio. Yeah, actual modulation of the EM spectrum. It tells them "trucker strike means long lines at gas stations!". When you drive an ICE car and encounter a station with a cheap price and massive queues, you make a decision based on need and desire to queue up or try the empty station across the street for 5c more per liter or just keep going because you don't need to fill up right now. Or you get Waze to tell you where the cheap gas is, and see if people are reporting long lines there. Why different for electricity? Knowing all that in advance is a nice to know for some users, but it isn't need to know for all users. So integrate it into Waze, don't reinvent the wheel. I'm 10 minutes away from the site of the 2nd gas station in the US. It was built in 1907. People have been building gas stations for a long time before the technology existed for them to provide data directly (i.e. without needing an engaged group of people self-reporting). If EVs are to one day replace or even rival gas cars in numbers, the amount of charging stations currently in existence is negligible. We're already starting from scratch, so why aim for parity with what has existed for >100 years? I'm not willing to entertain the thought "piecemeal user reported data is good enough, don't dream bigger." kill me now posted:From my experience with charging away from home any time its been a Level 2 charger it hasn't been a huge concern because its been at a location I was already going to spending time at ie: shopping/movie/event/work so charging time wasn't a critical concern. When I've used a CHAdeMO fast charger I've been content to play games on my phone and listen to music while sitting in my car for the 20 or so minutes I needed to charge before I reached the charge state I needed to be at. "What we have works for me therefore it will work for everyone." kill me now posted:If 20% of gas station installed a CHAdeMO or CCS charger or two on their property You're casually suggesting 35,000-70,000 DC chargers be built (one or two chargers built on 20% of gas stations) and I'm telling you that's still not enough. You're describing what would be needed for a higher rate of EV adoption. I'm talking about eventually making the sale of new gas cars illegal. Wayne Knight fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Apr 12, 2018 |
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Apr 12, 2018 17:52
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RZA Encryption posted:100% agree that payment is more important. I don't mean to imply that you aren't empathetic, just that for mass adoption the architects of the charging infrastructure shouldn't settle for "they can figure it out/get used to it".
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Apr 12, 2018 17:53
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RZA Encryption posted:Sorry, I don't think I did a good enough job of communicating this. I'm talking about before you get to the charger. Like, choosing which one to route to based on charging speed and charger availability. Imagine plugshare built into your car's nav, but every charger shows live status info and pricing regardless of brand. Now imagine the infrastructure and partnerships needed to provide this level of interoperability both between chargers and car units. That's what I think is needed, and I don't know who would do it. Ok, I thought you meant while charging, but that's a fair point. Changing from kW to range gained per time doesn't make that big of a difference in practice I think. The Ioniq does one part of the job, it can tell you X minutes to full charge if connected to a fast charger, Y minutes if connected to a slow etc, and you can configure which charging power it uses to calculate. It's not far from that to a website you could access from the car, perhaps through your phone, store your car type and do routing, charging suggestions etc. There are online route planners that sort of does this, but they don't take availability into account. There's also the problem of seeing into the future, will it be available when I get there? Published average usage stats can be useful here. I see these main points as big steps towards a smoother fast charging infrastructure: 1. A common form of payment, preferably ultra slick. 2. Some basic API which various relevant availability parameters. 3. Overbookable charging parks, so in a queue you can hook your car up and go do something else instead of creeping gradually forward for 30 minutes. 1 and 2 relies on companies cooperating, which they suck at. Hopefully CCS can cooperate for a long time on many aspects and new companies will join in on the established standards. Could also be that they don't do anything outside the specifics of charging the car. Payment can of course just be a bank card terminal, but the best thing is just to read your cars ID through the CCS port which is then connected to your credit card somehow. This means CCS needs to be on board and a single payment provider. Perhaps it's not very difficult for different payment providers to use the same method, that would be the best I guess. Computer, please try this ID on each element in this list of payment providers until it returns true. 3 is what Tesla already has, in that 2 and 2 charging points share 1 charger. This principle can be scaled any which way, 5 outlets per charger etc. The point is that the ones to arrive before there's a queue get full power, if there's a queue you have to share. It's better to get slow power than to wait But i.f the queue is big enough, you will have to sit and wait no matter what, under any system. This also means that a fixed minute price gives you peak pricing, as you'll get less power for your money if there's a big queue, which means you are incentivized to move on more quickly. Loads of babbling words, but in sum, you should be able to see queue status before you get there, park the car, plug it in and go and do something else for a while. That makes it simple to use and fairly predictable, which is what users want. All of this is already possible on the Tesla Superchargers by the way, including live usage status and linking car ID to payment.
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Apr 12, 2018 17:56
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Ola posted:Ok, I thought you meant while charging, but that's a fair point. Changing from kW to range gained per time doesn't make that big of a difference in practice I think. The Ioniq does one part of the job, it can tell you X minutes to full charge if connected to a fast charger, Y minutes if connected to a slow etc, and you can configure which charging power it uses to calculate. It's not far from that to a website you could access from the car, perhaps through your phone, store your car type and do routing, charging suggestions etc. Agree with all of this. I think the main takeaway from all of this is that Tesla has the right idea on what the charging experience should be, and it will either take a whole lot of inter-organizational cooperation or a single entity to replicate it for non-teslas.
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Apr 12, 2018 18:05
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RZA Encryption posted:I'm 10 minutes away from the site of the 2nd gas station in the US. It was built in 1907. People have been building gas stations for a long time before the technology existed for them to provide data directly (i.e. without needing an engaged group of people self-reporting). If EVs are to one day replace or even rival gas cars in numbers, the amount of charging stations currently in existence is negligible. We're already starting from scratch, so why aim for parity with what has existed for >100 years? I'm not willing to entertain the thought "piecemeal user reported data is good enough, don't dream bigger." Aren't we a long way off from that, though? How long until we get a vehicle that is capable of towing a camper, even a small <3,000 pound one? I am not likely to turn my 4 hour drive into a 7 or 8 hour one so I can stop 2 or 3 times to get to my camping location.
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Apr 12, 2018 18:08
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TraderStav posted:Aren't we a long way off from that, though? How long until we get a vehicle that is capable of towing a camper, even a small <3,000 pound one? I am not likely to turn my 4 hour drive into a 7 or 8 hour one so I can stop 2 or 3 times to get to my camping location. The Model X has a 5000lb towing capacity. There are articles out there analyzing range impact, but I’d be surprised if it doubled the trip, given my experience with superchargers.
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Apr 12, 2018 18:10
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TraderStav posted:Aren't we a long way off from that, though? How long until we get a vehicle that is capable of towing a camper, even a small <3,000 pound one? I am not likely to turn my 4 hour drive into a 7 or 8 hour one so I can stop 2 or 3 times to get to my camping location. Stealing Gitlin's thunder here - "A pass-through at the dash lets you carry 24 planks of 2x4. Standard sheets of plywood will fit in the back, and it can carry 5,000lb loads while towing a similar mass behind it." https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/goes-off-road-carries-big-loads-the-bollinger-b1-electric-truck/
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Apr 12, 2018 18:11
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Subjunctive posted:The Model X has a 5000lb towing capacity. There are articles out there analyzing range impact, but I’d be surprised if it doubled the trip, given my experience with superchargers. Oh word? drat I'm misinformed.
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Apr 12, 2018 18:12
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Just read this, long way to go before it's a viable towing solution https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-range-and-charging-while-towing-a-trailer.html
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Apr 12, 2018 18:19
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RZA Encryption posted:
I agree, I would love to work with this. Here's a bit more on how I think a highway rest stop charging park should work: There are, say, 20 chargers but 50 charging outlets. The charger isn't directly placed where the outlet is, but power gets switched around through underground cables. If you arrive as #1, you can pick whichever bay you want. Once more than 20 cars are there, queue mode begins. The first 20 gets the highest share of power, but it's less than what it would have been without a queue. The remaining cars in the queue gets some minimum "breadstick" power which they can munch on while waiting for the main course. In addition, they can share whatever is left from the first 20, because when the first 20 get closer to 100% the requested charging power will drop and more watts will be available to the queuers. This saves a whole bunch of time compared to cars today using a fast charger one by one, as when the charging power drops at high %, the surplus wattage is unused while the queue just sits there and waits. Once car #1 stops charging, either by reaching 100% or plugging out, the queue shifts one up and car #21 gets full power. And once max capacity of 50 is reached, a red light comes on at the entry, perhaps a gate drops, and you'll have to sit and wait for a spot to open. Can't help it on a busy day, no matter how you scale it. But with a system like this, you can handle 2.5x the cars for every 1x of installed electric power capacity. In cities, for overnight or resident charging, big parking garages with 2-3 kW spot power will work. You can make this a better business by having vehicle to grid. If your car doesn't support it, you pay more, but if it does and your car can sit there and discharge 5-6 kWh during the morning peak, you get a discount.
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Apr 12, 2018 18:20
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Yeah that sounds rad. The amount of charging facilities needs to be high enough that you could pass a full one for the next one.TraderStav posted:Aren't we a long way off from that, though? How long until we get a vehicle that is capable of towing a camper, even a small <3,000 pound one? I am not likely to turn my 4 hour drive into a 7 or 8 hour one so I can stop 2 or 3 times to get to my camping location. Yeah, we're not close. I know I'm dreaming here. I do think EV adoption will follow charger availability, though. Waiting for demand to build chargers is going to make distance charging miserable or just unattainable for some time. The comfort of seeing chargers around you before you have an EV will make that decision all the easier.
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Apr 12, 2018 18:31
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Ola posted:There are, say, 20 chargers but 50 charging outlets. Tesla HPWCs can bond together and distribute available power according to the number of connected cars. Works quite well: my last job had about a dozen HPWCs that were fed enough power for 6.
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Apr 12, 2018 18:34
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RZA Encryption posted:I'm 10 minutes away from the site of the 2nd gas station in the US. It was built in 1907. People have been building gas stations for a long time before the technology existed for them to provide data directly (i.e. without needing an engaged group of people self-reporting). If EVs are to one day replace or even rival gas cars in numbers, the amount of charging stations currently in existence is negligible. We're already starting from scratch, so why aim for parity with what has existed for >100 years? I'm not willing to entertain the thought "piecemeal user reported data is good enough, don't dream bigger." By all means dream bigger. But accept that of the number of people who would actively use all that powerful networked, collated, and integrated data, and want it from their car's infotainment system instead of on their phone is a minority compared to the number of people who just drive to the store, or work, and if the plug thing blinks they just say Hey Siri/Galaxy/Google find me a car charger, or just drive to Ikea because there's always one there and they can get some meatballs. Early adopters, tech geeks, those people might share your dream. Most people don't give a poo poo. I give the example of Waze, because I was a full convert and it saved me hours and probably multiple strokes when I was commuting by car, and I would tell everyone how great it was and how much all that info would change their lives for the better. Can you guess how well that went? People still arriving late saying "I saw the break lights ahead and got off the highway just in time!" "lucky, I was stuck in that." I worked with people who still had flip phones and 100mb data plans (if they had one at all). These are the people you're trying to reach. If they need to charge while they're out, they're still going to drive to the mall with the chargers because they know there's chargers there, and then complain that all the chargers are busy or slow. And you can show them exactly how to avoid that by touching things on the big screen, and they'll still drive to the mall with the chargers, and still complain about it, because that's what people do.
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Apr 12, 2018 18:37
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Finger Prince posted:By all means dream bigger. But accept that of the number of people who would actively use all that powerful networked, collated, and integrated data, and want it from their car's infotainment system instead of on their phone is a minority compared to the number of people who just drive to the store, or work, and if the plug thing blinks they just say Hey Siri/Galaxy/Google find me a car charger, or just drive to Ikea because there's always one there and they can get some meatballs. This is a really interesting perspective. You think that using a phone to find a charger would be the norm for non-enthusiasts, and that early adopters and tech geeks are the ones that would want it integrated into the infotainment system. I think it's the opposite. I'm talking about data sharing and integrations, but for the purpose of the end user never having to think about that. There is a network connected screen in the car they are already using. Presenting the data there rather than on a different device is the more frictionless route. Have the info there when navigating and built into the routing, or when not navigating just pop it up contextually if you're getting lower and are further away from your home area. Finger Prince posted:I worked with people who still had flip phones and 100mb data plans (if they had one at all). These are the people you're trying to reach. Which is why it should happen through their car and not through their phone.
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Apr 12, 2018 18:56
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RZA Encryption posted:Sorry, I don't think I did a good enough job of communicating this. I'm talking about before you get to the charger. Like, choosing which one to route to based on charging speed and charger availability. Imagine plugshare built into your car's nav, but every charger shows live status info and pricing regardless of brand. Now imagine the infrastructure and partnerships needed to provide this level of interoperability both between chargers and car units. That's what I think is needed, and I don't know who would do it.  So like this? It looks like only EVGO and ChargePoint are supported in my area but those are the only common networks besides Blink which is utter poo poo already.
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Apr 12, 2018 19:47
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Yes like that, but more prevalent and with additional info w/r/t charging speed. Also integrated billing.
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Apr 12, 2018 19:54
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TraderStav posted:Just read this, long way to go before it's a viable towing solution One of the main problems he encountered was that he kept getting half way through the battery and not being able to reliably tell whether he had to stop & charge at a charger, or whether he could go on to the next one. As it turned out, he probably made a few unnecessary stops. With another 50% or so capacity it would have been a lot less painful I think.
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Apr 12, 2018 20:08
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TraderStav posted:Just read this, long way to go before it's a viable towing solution I just completed a 1,500 mile week long road trip if anyone has any questions! Edit: While towing of course. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/88kcab/1500_mi_roadtrip_with_trailer/
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Apr 12, 2018 21:27
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eeenmachine posted:I just completed a 1,500 mile week long road trip if anyone has any questions! What's the total weight? Hard to tell the size from the pictures. My pop up is 2,900 dry, so closer to 4,000 full with the kayaks strapped to the top.
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Apr 12, 2018 21:36
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TraderStav posted:What's the total weight? Hard to tell the size from the pictures. http://littleguytrailers.com/meerkat/ 900 lbs dry. I get the sense that drag has a bigger effect on range than weight (to a certain degree). Also I've been driving electric for almost a decade now so I might have gotten good at driving more efficiently when needed 
eeenmachine fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Apr 12, 2018 |
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Apr 12, 2018 21:38
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Wow that's really neat.
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Apr 12, 2018 21:40
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RZA Encryption posted:You're casually suggesting 35,000-70,000 DC chargers be built (one or two chargers built on 20% of gas stations) and I'm telling you that's still not enough. You're describing what would be needed for a higher rate of EV adoption. I'm talking about eventually making the sale of new gas cars illegal. A reminder: 30k chargers at low end to service 15k vehicles which are not in any way evenly distributed geographically. There is absolutely no business case to do this.
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Apr 12, 2018 21:48
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Liquid Communism posted:There is absolutely no business case to do this. Correct, comrade. 
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Apr 12, 2018 21:51
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RZA Encryption posted:Correct, comrade. Hey, if we want to build them as public infrastructure it's a different discussion, but at present you're talking about getting gas stations to do it. Plus the whole issue that gas station real estate is based around cars in/out in 10 minutes. I'm trying to imagine how you deal with mass EV charging on, say, the Kansas Turnpike where there are hundreds of miles with just median built small gas stations with attached fast food.
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Apr 12, 2018 21:54
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A reminder: Most (not all) EVs are topped off right at home where they're parked overnight (even most apartment complexes will have charging). I doubt we'd have as many gas stations as we do if most drivers only needed one on a road trip. I've had an electric car as my daily driver for 8+ years and have only charged outside my home maybe 20 times? eeenmachine fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Apr 12, 2018 |
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Apr 12, 2018 21:58
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If my impression from Hollywood movies is accurate, 20% of America's surface area is desolate parking lots behind shopping malls. Put the chargers there. Malls have massive electric power, but are currently being destroyed by Amazon, so the wattage will be available.
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Apr 12, 2018 21:59
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Ola posted:If my impression from Hollywood movies is accurate, 20% of America's surface area is desolate parking lots behind shopping malls. Put the chargers there. Malls have massive electric power, but are currently being destroyed by Amazon, so the wattage will be available. This is actually where most Tesla Superchargers are located!
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Apr 12, 2018 22:00
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Liquid Communism posted:Hey, if we want to build them as public infrastructure it's a different discussion, but at present you're talking about getting gas stations to do it. Nooooo no no no, I'm not suggesting gas stations do it. I don't think there's nearly enough room for it and I don't trust them to not sabotage it. kill me now suggested that: kill me now posted:From my experience with charging away from home any time its been a Level 2 charger it hasn't been a huge concern because its been at a location I was already going to spending time at ie: shopping/movie/event/work so charging time wasn't a critical concern. When I've used a CHAdeMO fast charger I've been content to play games on my phone and listen to music while sitting in my car for the 20 or so minutes I needed to charge before I reached the charge state I needed to be at. I'm not opposed to it being public infrastructure or even run by whatever local power company they'd be supplied from. I think more realistically it will be a series of new franchises formed by owners of excess commercial space looking to rent it out to some franchisee while collecting a sliver of the payment processing. eeenmachine posted:A reminder: Most (not all) EVs are topped off right at home where they're parked overnight (even most apartment complexes will have charging). I doubt we'd have as many gas stations as we do if most drivers only needed one on a road trip. Absolutely. Right now we think about non-home chargers as destination chargers. As in, chargers at your destination. For fast charging I think the chargers will be the destination. (well, a stop on the way at least). Higher range is going to be more common. There will be fewer level two mall chargers and more centralized fast chargers. 4 or 6 level 2 chargers at a mall aren't going to matter if 30% of people drive EVs. (Yes, I'm trying to predict the future) I just don't think we'll ever see parking lots that are 30% charging spots. They're great now while there's relatively few of us driving our niche cars, but if there's mass adoption of EVs, level 2 chargers will be residential only and level 3 will be in dedicated spaces. Wayne Knight fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Apr 12, 2018 |
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Apr 12, 2018 22:00
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eeenmachine posted:This is actually where most Tesla Superchargers are located! Every Tesla Supercharger that I've actually seen (not a Tesla owner) are in the parking lots of Carl's Junior restaurants.
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Apr 12, 2018 22:29
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The Locator posted:Every Tesla Supercharger that I've actually seen (not a Tesla owner) are in the parking lots of Carl's Junior restaurants. But even those are part of a bigger strip mall or commercial complex in my experience.
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Apr 12, 2018 22:41
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People really need to get over the idea that level 3 chargers are equivalent to gas stations and should or will ever be adopted in anything resembling the way we use gas stations. An electric car should be charging overnight on a level 2 station, maybe also at a workplace, level 3 is for unusual trips or emergencies, they aren't even designed to fill up a EV battery, the idea is to get you enough charge quickly enough to get you to a level 2 charger. It's like if you expected AAA to delivery you 10 gallons of gas instead of just enough to get you to the nearest gas station. We really have to break people of the idea that design decisions for ICE cars make any sense for EV cars for most users. Cars have large ranges and fuel tanks because going to the gas station sucks, if oil companies had designed an infrastructure system to slowly deliver 5 gallons of gas into your car in your garage overnight at dirt cheap prices everyone would be doing that and it would seem absurd to keep 3 times that in your car at all times just in case you want to take a road trip or have to drive all the way across town every once in a while and don't feel like spending the extra $5 to fill up at the gas station.
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Apr 12, 2018 22:49
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