|
"Nobody travels more than one hundred miles a day. Everything EV related is as good as it will ever be and there's no point in desiring anything better. The i3 does not look weird."
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2018 22:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 13, 2024 00:24 |
|
|
RZA Encryption posted:"Nobody travels more than one hundred miles a day. Everything EV related is as good as it will ever be and there's no point in desiring anything better. The i3 does not look weird." Welcome to the new normal.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2018 23:00
|
|
|
RZA Encryption posted:"Nobody travels more than one hundred miles a day. Everything EV related is as good as it will ever be and there's no point in desiring anything better. The i3 does not look weird." Right, we should all be driving full size extended cab trucks with 40 gallon gas tanks because we occasionally have to move bulky stuff across town or do some major lawn work. I'm guessing people that drive more than 100 miles a day in a personal car are exceedingly rare and even most of them are out of lifestyle decisions rather than actual personal or professional needs.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2018 23:01
|
|
|
Installing huge amounts of DC chargers really isn't that massive of a problem. Electricity and parking lots are everywhere. But you are right that a DC charger isn't where you would want to go to do your weekly fill of electricity. That should ideally be a parking space, even if you don't own it. Fitting parking spaces with charging options is much easier than DC. Every lamp post could have a Type 2 connector.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2018 23:06
|
|
|
Three Olives posted:Right, we should all be driving full size extended cab trucks with 40 gallon gas tanks because we occasionally have to move bulky stuff across town or do some major lawn work. Now that's just not arguing in good faith. There is grey between "level 2 only, low range EVs" and "everyone needs a truck just in case". If we're talking about making things palatable for a huge shift (gas -> pure electric), people need to know that their needs aren't just covered 99% of the time, but like 110% of the time. They aren't going to want to cut it close, ever. Yes, this is excess, but it's not F450 levels of excess. How many days a year does someone need to drive 100 miles per day for you to feel that having a car that can do it is justified?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2018 23:09
|
|
|
He’s not wrong, though. About chargers, anyway... Once a BEV hits a 200 or 300 mile unrecharged range threshold, destination charging and L3 charging becomes MUCH less necessary. Charging at home should be an expected standard for anyone considering a BEV, with apartment/high density dweller occasionally able to own them in extremely high density areas because of the presence of convenient L3 charging infrastructure. Id wager that a vast majority of people aren’t using 300+ miles of range in a single day. L3 charging is for THAT use case, not charging a car on the way to work that just spent thirteen hours parked in a driveway. That’s what L2 charging is for. ...And also why new-construction should be required by code to have a dedicated 220v50a circuit accessible at the driveway/garage/carport. The cost of the larger electrical service and the circuit/outlet itself is probably under $100, if installed at construction.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2018 23:11
|
|
|
Surely you can agree that they need to exist, though? I completely agree that the vast majority of charging will be level 2, overnight, in a garage, but level 3 needs to exist literally everywhere it might need to be used. People aren't going to always route their day around their charge. People are going to forget to charge overnight or be unable to for some reason. What reason? Doesn't matter, infrastructure has to be planned for any case. "Too bad for them, they can be delayed hours at a mall and they'll know better next time." isn't acceptable.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2018 23:23
|
|
|
RZA Encryption posted:Surely you can agree that they need to exist, though? Absolutely, but the numbers of installations that are being thrown around here are probably extremely high. In a mature system (with large numbers of BEVs, or even 100% BEVs,) probably as much of 90% of metered power delivered to personal vehicles could probably be delivered via L2 charging overnight, and during other downtimes. (Work charging is another super-important piece of the puzzle.) I don’t see how forgetting to charge your car and having to go a bit out of your way, and spend a bit of extra time plugged into a (probably very expensive to use) L3 charger is any more unacceptable than being late for something because you ignored the low fuel warning, and had to wait/walk for fuel. The things don’t need to be on every street corner. Commercial vehicles and fleet vehicles are an entirely different animal, of course.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2018 23:32
|
|
|
RZA Encryption posted:How many days a year does someone need to drive 100 miles per day for you to feel that having a car that can do it is justified? There are a lot of variables there, efficiency of the drivetrain, storage density of the batteries, battery cost per KwH accessibility of level 3 chargers, cost of electricity, off peak discount availability, cost of a rental car, etc, etc but I bet if you actually broke down the dollar cost and time it would be a lot, lot less than what it is in your and other people's mind. You do understand that a longer range EV has real costs in both efficiency and price, right? The price difrence between an identically specced S 750D with 259 mile range and an S 100D is $20,000 for an extra 76 miles of range. That's before you get to the efficiency costs of dragging all those extra batteries around.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2018 23:32
|
|
|
MrYenko posted:Absolutely, but the numbers of installations that are being thrown around here are probably extremely high. In a mature system (with large numbers of BEVs, or even 100% BEVs,) probably as much of 90% of metered power delivered to personal vehicles could probably be delivered via L2 charging overnight, and during other downtimes. (Work charging is another super-important piece of the puzzle.) Think about the last mall or office park you went to. Think about the amount of parking spaces. What percentage of parking spaces do you envision one day having L2 charging? Say, in a time where >50% of cars are BEV. MrYenko posted:I don’t see how forgetting to charge your car and having to go a bit out of your way, and spend a bit of extra time plugged into a (probably very expensive to use) L3 charger is any more unacceptable than being late for something because you ignored the low fuel warning, and had to wait/walk for fuel. The things don’t need to be on every street corner. Sorry if I was unclear making that point, I was referring to it being unacceptable to expect someone to rely on L2 charging due to poor planning or forgetting to charge. Not L3. Also, while I don't think they need to be on every corner, I do think they need to be prevalent enough to ensure there is one close to where you need it. I wouldn't expect them to all be constantly at capacity, but I would expect them to be redundant so you don't have to intentionally route through them. Again, this is in the "everyone or most everyone has a BEV" parallel dimension. There would be a monetary incentive to charge at home, and that would cover most use cases, but L3 has to be present and effective when you need it. Three Olives posted:There are a lot of variables there, efficiency of the drivetrain, storage density of the batteries, battery cost per KwH accessibility of level 3 chargers, cost of electricity, off peak discount availability, cost of a rental car, etc, etc but I bet if you actually broke down the dollar cost and time it would be a lot, lot less than what it is in your and other people's mind. Gas cars offer the ability to not care about any of that. If we want to usher in the glorious EV future, we need to make sure drivers don't have to care about that stuff either. It should all "just work". (go further than needed with the ability to add more range quickly)
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2018 23:53
|
|
|
RZA Encryption posted:Think about the last mall or office park you went to. Think about the amount of parking spaces. What percentage of parking spaces do you envision one day having L2 charging? Say, in a time where >50% of cars are BEV. This is a good exercise to do for apartment buildings, too.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:05
|
|
|
RZA Encryption posted:If we want to usher in the glorious EV future, we need to make sure drivers don't have to care about that stuff either. It should all "just work". (go further than needed with the ability to add more range quickly) Because people are morons about the economics, efficiencies and actual consumer need of 150+ mile EVs and level 3 charging we should just build a fuckton of them at huge cost for the sake of feels instead of just re-educating consumers? At least in the US the only BMW that can be spec-ed without a CD player is the i3 which offers no CD player. Also every US BMW has USB audio, Bluetooth audio and Aux in and has for YEARS. How much money do you think BMW has spent in warranty, R&D, development, licenses and associated other costs to put an audio format in every single car they sell that no one gives a gently caress about anymore and hasn't for years? I bet it is in the millions but I bet they do it anyways because they are afraid some 50 year old is going to go into the dealership and say "What, this doesn't have a CD player? I guess I'm buying the Mercedes that does."
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:12
|
|
|
Three Olives posted:Because people are morons about the economics, efficiencies and actual consumer need of 150+ mile EVs and level 3 charging we should just build a fuckton of them at huge cost for the sake of feels instead of just re-educating consumers? At least in the US the only BMW that can be spec-ed without a CD player is the i3 which offers no CD player. Also every US BMW has USB audio, Bluetooth audio and Aux in and has for YEARS. Telling people "you're morons, you don't know what you want, and here do these calculations to find out your optimal range" isn't going to work. You need to understand this.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:15
|
|
|
I drive a lot for work but I'm fine with 150 mile range. I just need some more good-looking options for under 30k pre-rebate. I'm hearing good things about the 2019 Leaf so that might be an option finally.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:16
|
|
|
Wireless charging highways. Never not have electricity.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:26
|
|
|
RZA Encryption posted:Telling people "you're morons, you don't know what you want, and here do these calculations to find out your optimal range" isn't going to work. You need to understand this. So your solution to mass adoption of EVs is to make them all luxury cars?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:29
|
|
|
Where exactly did I propose that as a solution?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:32
|
|
|
Batteries are loving expensive, buying and hauling a bunch of them around every day because you might hypothetically need them every once in awhile to make your life a little more convenient is about as luxury as you can get.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:39
|
|
|
Three Olives posted:People really need to get over the idea that level 3 chargers are equivalent to gas stations and should or will ever be adopted in anything resembling the way we use gas stations. An electric car should be charging overnight on a level 2 station, maybe also at a workplace, level 3 is for unusual trips or emergencies, they aren't even designed to fill up a EV battery, the idea is to get you enough charge quickly enough to get you to a level 2 charger. 'Unusual trips' like driving between cities outside of the coasts. RZA Encryption posted:
Also the ability to not need a tow if they run out of power a quarter mile down the road from a gas station. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Apr 13, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:43
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:'Unusual trips' like driving between cities outside of the coasts. In what context? I made a 90 mile round trip the other week to an adjacent city to see the in-laws without issue in my i3.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:50
|
|
|
Three Olives posted:Batteries are loving expensive, buying and hauling a bunch of them around every day because you might hypothetically need them every once in awhile to make your life a little more convenient is about as luxury as you can get. I'll absolutely grant you that $30k for a new leaf or $37k for a new bolt isn't cheap compared to sentras or cruzes, and in fact are prohibitively expensive for most buyers, but they are not luxury cars. You are exaggerating. Costs will have to come down for EV proliferation, no doubt. Liquid Communism posted:Also the ability to not need a tow if they run out of power a quarter mile down the road from a gas station. BRB patenting the battery powered jerrycan.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:51
|
|
|
Said it before and I'll say it again. I need 300-350 real miles of range, with the AC running, at 80-90mph (80-85mph limit highway on my route) before I'd ever think about a BEV. PHEV like the Volt works great for my needs though, and I'll keep it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:51
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Also the ability to not need a tow if they run out of power a quarter mile down the road from a gas station. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:55
|
|
|
I, personally, had a 120 mile round-trip daily commute for 14 months from 2016 to 2017. It happens and moving usually isn’t an option.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:56
|
|
|
RZA Encryption posted:BRB patenting the battery powered jerrycan. Foiled again!
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:57
|
|
|
Definitely something you can take care of yourself with a pair of hands and a pair of feet, and not a $150 dollar service.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 00:58
|
|
|
Speleothing posted:Definitely something you can take care of yourself with a pair of hands and a pair of feet, and not a $150 dollar service. Unless you feel like lugging a 55lb 5kwh battery pack back from the electricity station, just keep one of these in your trunk. https://www.amazon.ca/Power-Box-Pedal-Powered-Generator/dp/B00EZS8VQS
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 01:02
|
|
|
RZA Encryption posted:I'll absolutely grant you that $30k for a new leaf or $37k for a new bolt isn't cheap compared to sentras or cruzes, and in fact are prohibitively expensive for most buyers, but they are not luxury cars. You are exaggerating. Costs will have to come down for EV proliferation, no doubt. They aren't luxury cars but they are priced like them because batteries are loving expensive and there are far too many of them in the Bolt for what will cover the vast majority of consumer needs. The Bolt battery back costs $15,734.29 or $262kWh, I bet if you cut the range to 120 miles and stripped some standard options that are in there because the base cost is $37k and for $37k people expect some luxury features you could get the car under $30k.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 01:04
|
|
|
Speleothing posted:Definitely something you can take care of yourself with a pair of hands and a pair of feet, and not a $150 dollar service. AAA is less than $150/year, and it doesn’t look like they charge per-incident (just like they don’t for bringing gas). Some trucks are even L3.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 01:06
|
|
|
Three Olives posted:So your solution to mass adoption of EVs is to make them all luxury cars? Let's be honest. The concept of 100% ev uptake is hinged on forcing the lower and middle classes to accept that car ownership is no longer for them, as they have been priced out. Battery lifespans and the expense of replacing them mean the used market at 20% of retail is no longer a possibility, and at that point nobody making the median us wage can afford to drive.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 01:06
|
|
|
Yeah, my job usually only requires 20 miles of driving a day, but a one to two times a month I have to drive over a mountain range and go to rural areas which can easily hit 200-300 miles a day. I can't simply not go to work, or go a few hours late if I forgot to charge my vehicle or if my hotel didn't have a open charger available.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 01:18
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Let's be honest. The concept of 100% ev uptake is hinged on forcing the lower and middle classes to accept that car ownership is no longer for them, as they have been priced out. Battery lifespans and the expense of replacing them mean the used market at 20% of retail is no longer a possibility, and at that point nobody making the median us wage can afford to drive. And the exurbs are becoming the new inner-city, the middle-class suburban white have started abandoning their exurban tract home lifestyle for the convenience and economies of scale in the city displacing the urban poor who actually need the urban infrastructure. There is a lot going on right now or right around the corner when it comes to housing and transportation. To that point the people that can afford new modern cars in the next 10 years will likely be increasingly closer to work and their general lives and need even less range than many people that can afford a new EV now.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 01:27
|
|
|
Peachfart posted:Yeah, my job usually only requires 20 miles of driving a day, but a one to two times a month I have to drive over a mountain range and go to rural areas which can easily hit 200-300 miles a day. I can't simply not go to work, or go a few hours late if I forgot to charge my vehicle or if my hotel didn't have a open charger available. And in your mind how would renting a car 12 times a year be more expensive than buying a used Leaf for $12k and spending $20 a month charging it?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 01:32
|
|
|
Three Olives posted:They aren't luxury cars but they are priced like them because batteries are loving expensive and there are far too many of them in the Bolt for what will cover the vast majority of consumer needs. The market is going to need short range EVs, long range EVs, and everything in between to get to full adoption, and it's not going to happen tomorrow in any case. Three Olives posted:And in your mind how would renting a car 12 times a year be more expensive than buying a used Leaf for $12k and spending $20 a month charging it? ilkhan fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Apr 13, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 01:34
|
|
|
ilkhan posted:The market is going to need short range EVs, long range EVs, and everything in between to get to full adoption, and it's not going to happen tomorrow in any case. The market thinks it needs a poo poo ton of long range EV and is obsessed with them because consumers are being idiots and hurting themselves because of it. You do know a lot of people were pissed when lead was removed from gasoline, right? Like we had a massive multi-decade public debate if cars should be spewing out a potent neurotoxin because reasons.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 01:43
|
|
|
Three Olives posted:The market thinks it needs a poo poo ton of long range EV and is obsessed with them because consumers are being idiots and hurting themselves because of it. You do know a lot of people were pissed when lead was removed from gasoline, right? Like we had a massive multi-decade public debate if cars should be spewing out a potent neurotoxin because reasons. The only thing people cared about in the switch to unleaded gas was that it cost more. If EVs don't meet people's needs, people won't buy them. People's needs aren't going to change.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 01:45
|
|
|
Three Olives posted:They aren't luxury cars but they are priced like them because batteries are loving expensive and there are far too many of them in the Bolt for what will cover the vast majority of consumer needs. My buddy snagged a volt pack for his ev project (used, great condition and charge) for 4Kish I think. That aint bad. Hilarious part right now is there is tons of salvaged EV cars and no one knows what to do with them or what to sell parts for. You can get things for CHEAP.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 01:46
|
|
|
eeenmachine posted:But even those are part of a bigger strip mall or commercial complex in my experience. Not the one in Gila Bend! Well, it is sort of, there is a Carls, Love's Truckstop/Taco Bell, and a McDonalds, but the Carls has a parking lot that is clearly separate from the others there. The one in Buckeye on the other hand is at the corner of a large shopping area including a Lowes and Petsmart.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 02:36
|
|
|
Two of the ones I’ve used are just at Tesla stores, surrounded by nothing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 02:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 13, 2024 00:24 |
|
|
Speleothing posted:I, personally, had a 120 mile round-trip daily commute for 14 months from 2016 to 2017. It happens and moving usually isn’t an option. My commute is currently 110 miles round trip. Add another 40 miles if I visit my parents after work. Moving is not currently an option. I also drive to the coast (about a 350 mile trip to my normal hotel) at least once, and often 2x per month. Yes, I could get a rental, but that's a huge pain in the rear end as I would need to drive at least 30 minutes in the wrong direction to get to the nearest rental car facility, and since it's a small facility they have normal business hours and are closed on Sunday. Three Olives lives/works in a very vertical metropolitan area I think, and seems to think that nobody else lives in a different situation. I'm personally very interested in EV, but there are just too many logistical issues with them, even the top of the line Model S, for me to consider one currently. Those of us who live out in the wild wild west, sometimes have to drive very far to get to places!
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2018 02:46
|
|