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Yeah it's good to just tell the players "I'd like to have control over how often you rest, with the promise that I won't use it to gently caress you over, and we'll have a much better game overall because the attrition mechanics will work like they should"
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Apr 14, 2018 16:25
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Malpais Legate posted:I also struggle with my group insisting they long rest between basically every encounter. With Leomund's Tiny Hut and ritual casting, they've got safe full rests nearly anywhere. At least part of the group is so cautious and deliberate that it's frustrating that I can't provoke even SLIGHTLY reckless behavior. Leomund's can be dispelled. If they aren't setting a watch they can walk out, step on a newly setup trap and trigger an ambush. It doesn't have to kill them, it doesn't have to happen every time. You just need to send the message that it isn't risk free. gradenko_2000 posted:Yeah it's good to just tell the players "I'd like to have control over how often you rest, with the promise that I won't use it to gently caress you over, and we'll have a much better game overall because the attrition mechanics will work like they should" This works too.
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Apr 14, 2018 16:30
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gradenko_2000 posted:Yeah it's good to just tell the players "I'd like to have control over how often you rest, with the promise that I won't use it to gently caress you over, and we'll have a much better game overall because the attrition mechanics will work like they should" I might test the waters with that, but I don't know how well it will go. My problem child player complains vocally about literally everything from the Concentration mechanic preventing him from trivialing every fight as a wizard to Legendary Actions being 'basically cheating." I like them having control over their pacing, but as you said, it's ruining any sense of an attrition mechanic. I've punished them before with the Leomund's Tiny Hut bit before, but I don't think enough to make them rethink it as a solution to all of their problems. This is my first time ever DMing, although I've been at a year. I'm keeping notes on poo poo I'd like to have done differently and curtail in future games, and this is definitely on that list.
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Apr 14, 2018 17:25
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You might want to just tell your problem child to chill, because he’s affecting others’ enjoyment. If he doesn’t, it might be that he’s a negative to the game that you want to drop. Is he an experienced player?
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Apr 14, 2018 17:27
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That was a bit of an exaggeration but yeah, he's the most experienced player in that he's been at this since 1st Ed. I get a lot of "they ruined this in 5e" and "this was better in Pathfinder" stuff. He says he hates the system but stays because he likes "the story" or "the roleplaying" so I guess I'm doing something right. These complaints have settled down after a while (this game turned a year old last month, I think), but I still get offhanded comments like "oh right 5e ruined this too" that are more annoying than they are disruptive to the group.
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Apr 14, 2018 17:49
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Keep in mind that you can only have a long rest once every 24 hours, so they’re only going to get one encounter per day, not three. This should free you up a bit, since you can now give them tasks that must be completed in 24 hours, not just in 8. Also keep in mind that the world is not static and can react to the players. If they’re advancing really, really slowly, then information about what the party is doing can and should spread through their foes so they can prepare countermeasures. Whether those countermeasures are an ambush in the middle of the night made possible by dispel magic, triggering a cave-in on top of the dome, or even just standing around the dome patiently waiting to kill everyone when the dome pops is up to you. (Also keep in mind that the dome is hemispherical and can be burrowed up through.)
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Apr 14, 2018 17:58
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Malpais Legate posted:That was a bit of an exaggeration but yeah, he's the most experienced player in that he's been at this since 1st Ed. I get a lot of "they ruined this in 5e" and "this was better in Pathfinder" stuff. He says he hates the system but stays because he likes "the story" or "the roleplaying" so I guess I'm doing something right. This kind of nonsense is really common with players who are super invested in the way a system (i.e., Pathfinder) works and I am sorry you've encountered one in your first game. "They ruined ______" is a nonsense statement that only makes sense if you assume all parts of all systems are iterations of each other, and if you assume all games have precisely the same design goals. Pathfinder for instance makes assumptions about how rules model reality that 5e doesn't and if he can't get on board with the system after a year of playing it he needs to stop complaining about it.
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Apr 14, 2018 18:04
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Also 5e hasn't really ruined anything that wasn't already broken in previous editions as far as I can tell.
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Apr 14, 2018 18:17
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Speaking of encounter design, I almost accidentally killed a character last night because I picked a flavorful, CR appropriate monster without reading all its abilities first. Turns out CR5 zombie beholders still have disintegration ray 
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Apr 14, 2018 18:36
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Kaysette posted:Speaking of encounter design, I almost accidentally killed a character last night because I picked a flavorful, CR appropriate monster without reading all its abilities first. Turns out CR5 zombie beholders still have disintegration ray It’s not like you’re forced to use it just because it’s there, if you think it’s overpowered!
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Apr 14, 2018 18:44
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Subjunctive posted:It’s not like you’re forced to use it just because it’s there, if you think it’s overpowered! Obviously. I like rolling for what eye stalks to use for beholders and was surprised when a 4 came up and I got an effect that does the same damage as the CR13 version. This is about poor creature design, not how to rectify it on the fly.
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Apr 14, 2018 18:53
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kidkissinger posted:Also 5e hasn't really ruined anything that wasn't already broken in previous editions as far as I can tell.
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Apr 14, 2018 18:53
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Kaysette posted:Obviously. I like rolling for what eye stalks to use for beholders and was surprised when a 4 came up and I got an effect that does the same damage as the CR13 version. This is about poor creature design, not how to rectify it on the fly. Yeah, fair enough.
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Apr 14, 2018 18:54
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Anyone seen any good alternative currencies or means of exchange? I'm looking for something for the Feywild. Part of the allure of this party going there is they hear all these idiot fey just throw gold at anything because they don't care about it. So I want to keep gold around as something they can use to buy mundane items from visitors from the prime plane -- weapons, armor, tools, etc., but make buying from fey a bit more interesting. Favors and unique things are gonna factor into it a lot but I figure something a *little* more fungible between various fey could be good to have. I can't go have them capturing a Bogle every time someone needs information.
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Apr 14, 2018 19:28
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Anyone seen any good alternative currencies or means of exchange? I'm looking for something for the Feywild. Part of the allure of this party going there is they hear all these idiot fey just throw gold at anything because they don't care about it. So I want to keep gold around as something they can use to buy mundane items from visitors from the prime plane -- weapons, armor, tools, etc., but make buying from fey a bit more interesting. Favors and unique things are gonna factor into it a lot but I figure something a *little* more fungible between various fey could be good to have. I can't go have them capturing a Bogle every time someone needs information. What about four leaf clovers? And they only grow in really precarious positions like on the very tip of a crumbling cliff? And the second they get to the cliff a bunch of pixies will try to polymorph them into bears that makes the cliff collapse beneath them?
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Apr 14, 2018 20:21
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>gotta go find book in magic library >library is in prestigious university >DM expects us to show college dean signed treaty from our boss who the college knows, will let us in >instead we enroll in the college after a series of high rolls and a lot of gold >library off limits for first years >time to study Good luck with his derail, it’s time for the high school arc that he definitely did not prepare for
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Apr 14, 2018 22:15
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Thumbtacks posted:>gotta go find book in magic library This sounds awesome. My players just stole a book from Gromph Baenre’s chambers in Sorcere but I kind of wish they’d gone the Drow Mage Academy Dating Simulator route. e: they aren’t doing OotA but this was inspired by that campaign and by a homebrew recreation of Scholomance for 5e.
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Apr 14, 2018 23:20
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Anyone seen any good alternative currencies or means of exchange? I'm looking for something for the Feywild. Part of the allure of this party going there is they hear all these idiot fey just throw gold at anything because they don't care about it. So I want to keep gold around as something they can use to buy mundane items from visitors from the prime plane -- weapons, armor, tools, etc., but make buying from fey a bit more interesting. Favors and unique things are gonna factor into it a lot but I figure something a *little* more fungible between various fey could be good to have. I can't go have them capturing a Bogle every time someone needs information. One of my favorite things in the lore of Nobilis is the chapter on currencies. In the game PCs are demigods of a singular concept (Winter, Triangles, Fire, Pop Music) and there's a Vampire: The Masquerade level of political play among your Angel and Demon bosses. This comes with a whole bunch of setting-specific currency since there are Demigods of things like Gold, Wealth, Money, and Minerals who can all conjure up a solid gold helicopter at will. This means that Nobles trade in stuff like: Dreams - which are extremely deflationary with tomorrow's dreams being worth a lot and 3 day old dreams being near worthless. Tokens that represent the bond between family members. Izikel, which is tied to the destruction of foes. It's described as being worth "A bushel of one's enemies."
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Apr 15, 2018 02:51
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Razorwired posted:Dreams - which are extremely deflationary with tomorrow's dreams being worth a lot and 3 day old dreams being near worthless. This got me thinking of something I really like. John Mulaney had a joke about how at some high school rager of a party, a friend of his stole the host's family photo albums. He later learned he does this at any party where he can and had an entire little nook plastered in other peoples' family photos "because it's the one thing you can never replace." I could totally see Fey trafficking in the written word. Love letters, secret plots, mundane business contracts -- anything written that creates a bond between two people. And if the players get sneaky enough to try to fake their own, they might find how the Feywild thinks about contracts and promises.
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Apr 15, 2018 05:19
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Super late, but someone was talking about Haste not providing two sneak attacks. It does, but with some delay: you use the extra weapon attack to trigger sneak attack. Then you use the main action you already had to ready the attack action. The trigger is "the start of the next person's turn" or whatever satisfies your DM for readied action triggers. Then you sneak attack on the next turn, because sneak attacks are only limited on a per-turn basis.
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Apr 15, 2018 16:46
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Oh wow, I didn't even think of that. Thats pretty clever.
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Apr 15, 2018 16:50
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Nickoten posted:Super late, but someone was talking about Haste not providing two sneak attacks. It does, but with some delay: you use the extra weapon attack to trigger sneak attack. Then you use the main action you already had to ready the attack action. The trigger is "the start of the next person's turn" or whatever satisfies your DM for readied action triggers. Then you sneak attack on the next turn, because sneak attacks are only limited on a per-turn basis. This should work (and works with Action Surge as well). However, keep in mind that if you also have Extra Attack, you’ll only get one attack with your readied action (because Extra Attack specifies that it’s on “your turn”, and your readied attack will take place on another PC/creature’s turn). That’s my understanding of RAW based on some quick googling and checking, anyway. Goes without saying in 5e, but any strategy to get an extra sneak attack per round is also going to be quite DM dependent. Outside of SA, my impression is that many people think getting sneak attack once a round is too powerful as-is, so I’m sure they’d balk at letting a rogue get it twice (whether through readying an extra action or through an opportunity attack). escalator dropdown fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Apr 15, 2018 |
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Apr 15, 2018 17:20
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Nickoten posted:Super late, but someone was talking about Haste not providing two sneak attacks. It does, but with some delay: you use the extra weapon attack to trigger sneak attack. Then you use the main action you already had to ready the attack action. The trigger is "the start of the next person's turn" or whatever satisfies your DM for readied action triggers. Then you sneak attack on the next turn, because sneak attacks are only limited on a per-turn basis.
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Apr 15, 2018 17:20
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escalator dropdown posted:Goes without saying in 5e, but any strategy to get an extra sneak attack per round are also going to be quite DM dependent. Outside of SA, my impression is that many people think getting sneak attack once a round is too powerful as-is, so I’m sure they’d balk at letting a rogue get it twice (whether through readying an extra action or through an opportunity attack).
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Apr 15, 2018 17:24
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Splicer posted:Any GM that thinks a chance of dealing +3d6 damage is a gamebreaking use of a 3rd level spell slot is an idiot. I fully agree. I'm just noting that whenever I see discussion of rogues elsewhere, the general tone is "sneak attack / hiding with cunning action is too OP how do I gently caress them over," so unless you know your GM isn't an idiot, don't be surprised if they house-rule sneak attack as being once per round rather than once per turn. Hell, I think most people think that's already the RAW, much like how most people think surprise rounds still exist.
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Apr 15, 2018 17:30
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Wait what's this about surprise rounds
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Apr 15, 2018 17:59
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I'd be way more likely to smack that down for rules lawyering and gamey behavior than for breaking the difficulty curve. It just rubs me the wrong way when people spend more time thinking about how to be the most effective highest numbers boi than how to make a cool personality and roleplay better. Not that it doesn't work in other DM's tables, just not mine.
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Apr 15, 2018 18:06
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kidkissinger posted:Wait what's this about surprise rounds They aren’t a thing. They don’t exist. They have ceased to be.
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Apr 15, 2018 18:06
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Hey guys, I'm starting a group soon that's mostly new players. My wife seems iffy about buying the starter set for the group so I was wondering if there were any cheap or free adventures out there that are good to teach with. The one in the OP doesn't work.
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Apr 15, 2018 18:07
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kidkissinger posted:Wait what's this about surprise rounds Kaysette posted:They aren’t a thing. They don’t exist. They have ceased to be.
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Apr 15, 2018 18:11
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Elblanco posted:Hey guys, I'm starting a group soon that's mostly new players. My wife seems iffy about buying the starter set for the group so I was wondering if there were any cheap or free adventures out there that are good to teach with. The one in the OP doesn't work. The adventure in the starter set is actually pretty good and ppl in this thread can give you specific pointers about how to run it best for total noobs. The DDAL05 series of adventurers league modules on DMs Guild are a decent intro as well if you want to spend a bit less.
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Apr 15, 2018 18:12
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Agent355 posted:I'd be way more likely to smack that down for rules lawyering and gamey behavior than for breaking the difficulty curve. It just rubs me the wrong way when people spend more time thinking about how to be the most effective highest numbers boi than how to make a cool personality and roleplay better. Not that it doesn't work in other DM's tables, just not mine. I sorta get this perspective, but there's nothing in D&D as a system that means a min-maxed for combat character would be "bad" for roleplaying A Rogue that I min max for awesome combat will be equally min maxed for her out-of-combat skills D&D is a combat game, why would you not do everything you can to make your character good in combat?
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Apr 15, 2018 18:12
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Waffles Inc. posted:I sorta get this perspective, but there's nothing in D&D as a system that means a min-maxed for combat character would be "bad" for roleplaying I think it's more just the attitude. Like you can be the world's best roleplayer and also a power gamer, but I don't see that very often. I think people tend to lean one way or another even if they aren't by definition mutually exclusive. This sort of stuff would make me question the motives of the people at my table, but then I run a tight ship and vet my players, have open conversations about the sort of game I'll be running and the expectations of the players, and I"m not afraid to boot people from the group if they seem to be going against the grain. So largely my groups consist of people like minded to me, so even if I'm incorrect or being unreasonable about it, I think curating the most homogenous group of player-types is the best outcome anyway. Also min maxed for out of combat skills does not good roleplaying make. I know you probably weren't trying to imply that directly, so I'm not trying to call you out or anything, but still. You don't 'win' roleplaying just by having high skills.
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Apr 15, 2018 18:16
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Agent355 posted:I think it's more just the attitude. Like you can be the world's best roleplayer and also a power gamer, but I don't see that very often. I think people tend to lean one way or another even if they aren't by definition mutually exclusive. This sort of stuff would make me question the motives of the people at my table, but then I run a tight ship and vet my players, have open conversations about the sort of game I'll be running and the expectations of the players, and I"m not afraid to boot people from the group if they seem to be going against the grain. So largely my groups consist of people like minded to me, so even if I'm incorrect or being unreasonable about it, I think curating the most homogenous group of player-types is the best outcome anyway. Oh no no I totally agree. The only reason I mentioned the skills and such is that, as far as D&D as a system is concerned, the character sheet only matters for combat and skills; everything else is just roleplaying. But yeah I get you, I just think it's weird that there's any player who wouldn't min-max, roleplayer or not. In D&D, there's no downside to being as effective in combat as possible, so why wouldn't every player just learn what's good and maximize that?
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Apr 15, 2018 18:21
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It's just not that important. Like the enjoyment in the game isn't in the combat or dealing the big numbers. All of the combats are meant to somehow add to the narrative, they're just a tool in playing out this cooperative story building experience. Sure they're a big part because in an adventure story there is going to be an awful lot of conflict. But it's pretty easy to just make yourself be 'good enough' at combat and then not really worry about it, which is typically what I do as a player. Its not bad or anything, but IME players who are big into one are not big into the other, and I mean big. Everybody does some amount of both, but for real crazy power gamers the roleplaying is just an excuse to get back to the combat, and vice versa. Alot of the chat in this thread, probably a wide majority (that isn't edition wars), is all about how to best multiclass something or eek every bit of power out of their level 6 caster. It's good and fine and I'm not here to rain on anybody's parade but I find none of that talk to be very productive in actually increasing the enjoyment of the game. I like when people bring up better ways to handle various encounters or how to respond to various DM/player actions. No multiclassing, no power gaming, no rules lawyering, are stamped in big red ink on my forehead during the game so nobody forgets. Agent355 fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Apr 15, 2018 |
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Apr 15, 2018 18:28
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Agent355 posted:It's just not that important. I get you, I guess for me, I'm at the point where I just think like, the rules of D&D as a system are skill and combat based--that's the core of what the rules of the game are. Everything that's not skills or combat can be roleplayed exactly the same, regardless of system, so if as a player or DM combat and skills don't interest you, then why play D&D?
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Apr 15, 2018 18:36
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Waffles Inc. posted:Oh no no I totally agree. The only reason I mentioned the skills and such is that, as far as D&D as a system is concerned, the character sheet only matters for combat and skills; everything else is just roleplaying. There are degrees of min/maxing though. At least from my experience most people have a cool concept or idea in their head and want to play it, even if it isn't the best possible class or subclass. They're open to optimization within that concept though.
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Apr 15, 2018 18:37
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I like the fantasy and the setting, it's an easily recognizable name so it's not hard to convince other people to play. I can and do play other systems but also I enjoy the sort of characters you play in DnD. Not all roleplaying systems even use 'adventurers' that are meant to ultimately succeed and grow. Some systems have throwaway characters who are really meant to be disposable, others you just get really weird poo poo that I don't have fun roleplaying like in gamma world. On top of it 'why play dnd if you just want to roleplay' can be ascribed to most systems. The roleplaying doesn't change much, just the systems beneath so its not that DnD is particular compelling as much as it just suits my needs. I've played rules heavy dnd games that were practically just strategy combat games with a few skill checks thrown on top and its just intensely uninteresting. If I wanted to engage in the systems and balance of a game I'd just play a video game. Xae posted:There are degrees of min/maxing though. Also this a bit. One o fmy favorite characters was a rogue assassin who was blatantly not min maxed at all in skill choice or power but it fit the theme I was going for.
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Apr 15, 2018 18:39
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kidkissinger posted:Wait what's this about surprise rounds Surprise is more like a Condition in 5e than a separate round. A surprised creature takes no action on its turn in the first round, and ceases to be surprised once its turn ends. The reason this is relevant is because once its turn ends, it is no longer surprised and can now use reactions, and no longer triggers an Assassin's Assassinate auto-crit feature, etc. But I'm pretty sure most people just use a surprise round. Agent355 posted:I'd be way more likely to smack that down for rules lawyering and gamey behavior than for breaking the difficulty curve. It just rubs me the wrong way when people spend more time thinking about how to be the most effective highest numbers boi than how to make a cool personality and roleplay better. Not that it doesn't work in other DM's tables, just not mine. Agent355 posted:Its not bad or anything, but IME players who are big into one are not big into the other, and I mean big. Everybody does some amount of both, but for real crazy power gamers the roleplaying is just an excuse to get back to the combat, and vice versa. I get that this is a reaction to a particular type of problem player, but... as you acknowledge, there's no reason people can't do both things. You can simultaneously work on understanding how to be effective mechanically and develop a cool personality/roleplay for the character. Personally, I'd prefer to encourage people to engage both aspects of the game. Because IMO, it's only the combination of the two that makes D&D-type TTRPGs worth choosing in the first place rather than something else.
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Apr 15, 2018 18:41
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Without the combat rules, though, why are you paying for a big, fancy set of rulebooks? I can get not wanting to turn the game into Spreadsheet Simulator 20X6, but a player sucking at what they do is very likely to just make them tune out of the game. And good enough may not be good enough when another player can perform literal feats of heroism or rewriting of reality. Also, yeah, there's some major Stormwind Fallacy going on over here. Not only is nothing stopping someone from liking numbers and story, but they're such different pillars of the game its confusing to me to compare the two. Why not just talk with players about what they want out of DnD instead of drawing circles of salt to protect against powergaming?
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