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Agent355 posted:Some classes do things others cant. This is part of making characters have interesting strengths and weaknesses and while the balance isn't perfect pointing out it exists as if that is a bad thing is foolish. Don't you think it sucks that I can't just decide, as a part of my character's background, that I can use something like a longbow? I think it sucks.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:06
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Agent355 posted:Some general rules like no multilclassing helps a ton (exceptions for people who want to multiclass for lore reasons on rare occasion). See, this speaks of a fundamental misunderstanding of the system because, outside of two cases, multi-classing doesn't make characters that are more powerful than going single-class, and even those two cases are arguable. You're actually working against your intentions of making sure players make diverse characters with a focus on flavor rather than function. So banning multi-classing helps you filter out min-maxers in the same way that bulimia helps you lose weight.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:07
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Xae posted:DnD's core is a group power fantasy of being fantastic people with fantastic abilities. Did you hear a sharp whistling noise above you when you made this post, asking for a friend.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:07
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The Gate posted:Casters actually really do want martials around at high levels for combat. Martial classes, assuming you optimize some, can deal a lot more damage, more consistently, than a caster assuming you have enough encounters per day. Especially on bosses where legendary resistances and actions can ruin a caster's day, it helps immensely to be able to buff the guy who's dealing a bunch of damage a turn and can soak most mechanics. Reminds me of how the wizard in my older group was consistently the most useless member of the party. And he only came into the game at level 8 to 11, I assume the guy eventually got frustrated by how things were going for him, cause he eventually just vanished and never told anyone why.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:10
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Waffles Inc. posted:Don't you think it sucks that I can't just decide, as a part of my character's background, that I can use something like a longbow? I think it sucks. No I don't. You have tons of choices within boundaries that are set because you need weaknesses as a character. I make tons of stupid allowances for fun character concepts, I would totally allow the archer/monk crossclassing somebody mentioned earlier. One of my players has 'proficiency (siege weapons)' and another 'proficiency (grill)' which aren't part of the core rules. If you had some reason you wanted longbows and were willing to give something else up for the same reason 'I grew up being a rogue in a hunting town so I learned longbows but never learned to lockpick because nobody locks their doors' or w/e is fine. You can't have everything, thats okay. It's not a bad thing. So many of the arguments I'm seeing brought up are people who want to do everything in the party and you just can't. This is dnd. 
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Apr 15, 2018 20:11
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Waffles Inc. posted:Don't you think it sucks that I can't just decide, as a part of my character's background, that I can use something like a longbow? I think it sucks. I kind of see where you're coming from here, but in this case the longbow is both a balance and a flavor consideration. Granted, 1d6 versus 1d8 is small enough to be a statistical nonissue after like level 6, but there's more to it than that. I'm also not going to pretend that this balance factor was carefully considered by 5e's design team. I fundamentally agree with you but one of the costs of class systems generally is that sooner or later you run into this kind of poo poo. If it isn't proficiency, it's class abilities, or saving throws, or whatever. Granted I think feats can be alternate rewards in the same way that magic items are.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:12
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Mendrian posted:I kind of see where you're coming from here, but in this case the longbow is both a balance and a flavor consideration. Granted, 1d6 versus 1d8 is small enough to be a statistical nonissue after like level 6, but there's more to it than that. I'm also not going to pretend that this balance factor was carefully considered by 5e's design team. I've read enough posts about how 5e rapiers "literally" break the game by being so much better than short swords it would blow your mind.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:16
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Yeah the balance of the game isn't great. I wish they took more time with it. But I don't think the answer to that is doing everything you can to eek every bit out of everything and focusing on doing that is missing the forest for the trees. The example earlier of '+longbow profficiency -lockpicks' is just pulled otu of my rear end and not balanced at all, but the point is in a game like this you have to make those choices. You can't do everything and if you can name some crazy character concept that you can't make because of the system and that makes you feel the entire system is bad, the onus is on you. There are thousands and thousands of perfectly good characters that do exist in the system, combat is most of the rules because its the part of the game that most clearly needs neatly delineated boundaries, but it is just one part of the game and not even the most interesting part.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:16
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The insane concept of "uses a bigger bow". loving mental, mate.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:18
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The thing is there are systems where you can decide that your character can use a longbow and pick locks and then they can do that The fact that D&D is not one doesn't make D&D bad per se, but it becomes a matter of expectations. You can't be whatever your fantasy is in D&D and still be good at the two things that D&D offers mechanically: combat and skills So you have to put yourself into specific boxes, which limits your RP possibilities, or you have a character who is bad at the two things you play D&D as a system to do
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Apr 15, 2018 20:20
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Gotta draw the lines somewhere.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:20
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Agent355 posted:Yeah the balance of the game isn't great. I wish they took more time with it. But I don't think the answer to that is doing everything you can to eek every bit out of everything and focusing on doing that is missing the forest for the trees. Longbow Proficiency does seem like the kind of thing you just talk to your GM about and work out a custom background. "Yeah, I was a the gamekeeper for Lord Whatshisface. I would like Proficiency in Longbow and Survival as skills and then Otherplaceish and Randomplaceish as language proficiency as I would be expected to converse with his guests."
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Apr 15, 2018 20:21
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Agent355 posted:Yeah the balance of the game isn't great. I wish they took more time with it. But I don't think the answer to that is doing everything you can to eek every bit out of everything and focusing on doing that is missing the forest for the trees. At the risk of starting another seven page derail, I should point out that the concepts that frequently get flagged for powergaming (rogues, fighters, paladins) typically have to spend a lot of resources to support an increasingly narrow focus while spellcasters get a free pass while being able to literally do everything
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Apr 15, 2018 20:22
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Yeah backgrounds a real good place to get a bit of wiggle room since they add a few things on top of your class skills if what you want is fairly reasonable.Mendrian posted:At the risk of starting another seven page derail, I should point out that the concepts that frequently get flagged for powergaming (rogues, fighters, paladins) typically have to spend a lot of resources to support an increasingly narrow focus while spellcasters get a free pass while being able to literally do everything yeah I agree. I don't like the balance between martials and casters. I get that alot of the powergaming with them specifically is to try and keep up and I think spellcasters don't need to be toned down in power as much as scope. I don't like that they become the class that does everything all the time. Generally I just have a chat with the spellcasters in the group and try to get them to make a gentleman's agreement to not break the game and to let other people have fun too. I don't like that I have to do this, but it's a fine solution. For me personally DnD has 3 real problems. 1. wizards 2. Arbitrary CR monsters 3. Skill DCs are too drat high Luckily all of these are fixed by DMing without too much effort. It's a shame I have to do it at all but it seems silly to throw out an entire system over them when I enjoy alot of other aspects. Agent355 fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Apr 15, 2018 |
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Apr 15, 2018 20:22
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It's weird, if I'm given the capacity to make any character I want, as powerful as I want, I tend to make characters that have flaws. Hey, Agent355: would you be cool with an Eldritch Knight that used charisma or wisdom as a casting stat?
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Apr 15, 2018 20:24
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Agent355 posted:Yeah backgrounds a real good place to get a bit of wiggle room since they add a few things on top of your class skills if what you want is fairly reasonable. But if you're gonna say I can decide which weapons to use by way of background, why have mechanical limitations about weapon use at all? That's my thing is like, if the mechanics are there and you're not going to use them because you want your players to have a better RP experience...then why use those particular rules at all
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Apr 15, 2018 20:25
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Agent355 posted:Sorry bout your broke brain. This is a really weird take. Splicer's take is exactly on point.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:25
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Waffles Inc. posted:But if you're gonna say I can decide which weapons to use by way of background, why have mechanical limitations about weapon use at all? That's my thing is like, if the mechanics are there and you're not going to use them because you want your players to have a better RP experience...then why use those particular rules at all They explicitly give rules for creating custom backgrounds just to cover scenarios like this.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:28
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Gharbad the Weak posted:It's weird, if I'm given the capacity to make any character I want, as powerful as I want, I tend to make characters that have flaws. Yeah probably? I don't know much about eldritch knight but it seems mostly just a flavor thing if you'd rather use a different casting stat. I love flavoring up existing classes with a different set of window dressing just for variety. Doesn't generally make much shift in power. Waffles Inc. posted:But if you're gonna say I can decide which weapons to use by way of background, why have mechanical limitations about weapon use at all? That's my thing is like, if the mechanics are there and you're not going to use them because you want your players to have a better RP experience...then why use those particular rules at all Because backgrounds give things. They already augment your power level some, if you want longbow proficiency instead of whatever else you would normally have gotten in the background thats fine. We're still makign concessions and hopefully the fact that you have it comes up narratively as I'd expect any background to. If you have 99 good thigns and one bad thing why are you using any of the good things?
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Apr 15, 2018 20:28
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Agent355 posted:For me personally DnD has 3 real problems. Because there are options! Shadow of the Demon Lord is literally everything 5e does but better! And there are more divergent-but-similar options like 13th Age and One Ring.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:30
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Conspiratiorist posted:Because there are options! Shadow of the Demon Lord is literally everything 5e does but better! And there are more divergent-but-similar options like 13th Age and One Ring. And yet I like this and why is that such a problem to you? Its not like I haven't played other systems, and yet I still enjoy this one alot so I play it. It's such a weird nonsense argument that 'this game has flaws so play something else' when I'm obviously enjoying it despite the flaws and have played other poo poo and they have flaws too. Everything has flaws. But nvm, this is not even the point of the original 'focusing on character power often signals to me, as a DM, that a player is more interested in stomping battles than engaging with the party or the story' point I was making.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:30
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Agent355 posted:No I don't. You have tons of choices within boundaries that are set because you need weaknesses as a character. I make tons of stupid allowances for fun character concepts, I would totally allow the archer/monk crossclassing somebody mentioned earlier. One of my players has 'proficiency (siege weapons)' and another 'proficiency (grill)' which aren't part of the core rules. If you had some reason you wanted longbows and were willing to give something else up for the same reason 'I grew up being a rogue in a hunting town so I learned longbows but never learned to lockpick because nobody locks their doors' or w/e is fine. 
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Apr 15, 2018 20:32
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Agent355 posted:And yet I like this and why is that such a problem to you? Its not like I haven't played other systems, and yet I still enjoy this one alot so I play it. Just ignore him. He stops by the thread, shits it up and tries to start version war poo poo constantly.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:32
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Since we're really doing this derail, I'm genuinely super curious about what people see as the strengths of 5e D&D that are unique to it.You're only allowed to post positive things unique to 5e DND. I'll go first: - Beyond is very cool and makes it incredibly easy to onboard and monitor players who are new to the game - The brand. People new to TTRPG tend to be jazzed about "playing D&D" because it's a thing they can mark off of their checklist
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Apr 15, 2018 20:33
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Hostile V posted:Fixed the picture choice. I still have no argument for this beyond 'yah they hosed up that pretty bad' and to just DM fiat as gently as possible to fix it. 
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Apr 15, 2018 20:33
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Agent355 posted:Yeah probably? I don't know much about eldritch knight but... How do you not know much about one of the core Fighter archetypes?
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Apr 15, 2018 20:34
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I kinda prefer "no perfect sauce, but there are perfect sauces" analogy when it comes to rpgs . What do you want to do in your role playing experience and find what you want to do. dnd actually does a certain style of gaming experience very well, and it's fun, but good luck trying to do something outside the rules with it. every game has break points, but if all games are bad, then none are and then we can never make a better game. and yes, some games are better then others , otherwise we wouldn't have fatal and friends. :p
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Apr 15, 2018 20:34
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Agent355 posted:It's got a faulty basis though. YOu can't say 'I want to be a great fighter who is wise, intelligent, and charismatic' and then blame the system because it won't let you do that. Once of D&D 5E's specific badnesses is the terribleness of the ability scores. Strength is useless for combat if you're not a strength based fightman, at which point it becomes absolutely vital. Its only passive utility is it's the fourth most common save, and the only out of combat utility is Athletics. Dexterity has combat utility for everyone due to initiative and (non-heavy armour) AC boosts. It's also one of the most common saves and contributes to a fuckton of skills. Constitution is both boring and vital. It increases your HP and con saves, vital to goddamned everybody, but has absolutely no active uses. Even if these three abilities lived entirely in isolation there's a very clear winner here, and a very clear loser. Now let's look at the mental stats. Int is useless in combat, unless you're an int-based spellcaster. Wisdom is absolutely vital, because it's the last of the big three saves and is also what Perception keys off. Charisma does nothing in combat. There are like three monsters that attack charisma and otherwise that's it. You'd think the ability to read and influence people would be useful when stabbing people in the face but apparently not. So unless your character's class abilities key off them, putting points into charisma or strength or intelligence are pulling from your core class competencies. Putting points into dex, wisdom, or consitution will always complement your core class competencies, no matter what class you are. But they pull from the same pool of points! This is terrible game design. So if I want to hit people with a big axe, but also be Dexterous or Wise or Tough, these are all good, solid choices. If I want to hit people with a big axe, but also be Smart or Charismatic I'm either going to be overall worse than the rest of the party, and that matters, because: Agent355 posted:It's not really how powerful you are vs the monsters, as much as it's how powerful you are vs the other players.. You're probably going to win the fights no matter what because the DM isn't going to give you unassailable challenges as a general rule (other than THOSE ones). It's more about feeling like everybody in the party makes a valuable impact and can feel good about themselves. Agent355 posted:A 'good' character is often defined by their flaws But no, it's the players that are wrong.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:35
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Waffles Inc. posted:Since we're really doing this derail, I'm genuinely super curious about what people see as the strengths of 5e D&D that are unique to it. I'll go first: Also I recently switched from doing homebrew campaigns to just buying modules because I'm a lazy gently caress and I love the DMing part but hate the prep work. Right now I'm working through the 5e modules but when I've done all the ones I'm interest in I'll migrate to another system. The 5e modules are real good though and I can buy them on roll20 and they come preloaded with all the maps, and pogs, and fancy poo poo already put in!
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Apr 15, 2018 20:35
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Agent355 posted:And yet I like this and why is that such a problem to you? Its not like I haven't played other systems, and yet I still enjoy this one alot so I play it. yeah it's weird and bad that players focus on the part of the game that has, what, 75% of all mechanics dealing with it. They should be punished for hubris, possibly exiled.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:35
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Xae posted:Just ignore him. Wait, what?
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Apr 15, 2018 20:36
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Legitimately sorry that this has all of a sudden become edition wars. I'm outie, this is such a tired argument.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:37
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meh edition wars are for people whom are insecure at their own experiences of role playing games. I prefer people to be polygamerous so they get a full range of experiences. :p
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Apr 15, 2018 20:39
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Agent355 posted:Legitimately sorry that this has all of a sudden become edition wars. I'm outie, this is such a tired argument. It's not edition wars, it's that you're trying to fix the problems with 5e without understanding what's wrong with it. There are legitimate reasons to play 5e.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:40
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Xae posted:They explicitly give rules for creating custom backgrounds just to cover scenarios like this. No they don't? They have rules for custom backgrounds, but a background gives you a flavor thing you can do. Two skills. And any combination of two of languages or tools. Then some minor gear. At no point does a background give you the chance to learn a weapon. Which is super weird. As the rules stand if you are a Rogue and you want to know how to use a Longbow you need to either be an elf, take a feat, at 4th level at the earliest unless a variant human, or start as a Fighter or other class that has proficiency in Longbow.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:41
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The problems with D&D seem pretty intractable since they're never going to get rid of or significantly modify the ability score system and I can't see any other way to fix it.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:41
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Agent355 posted:Legitimately sorry that this has all of a sudden become edition wars. I'm outie, this is such a tired argument. I mean, you do you OP--no one thinks anyone is like, a bad person for liking D&D. These conversations have a use, at least in my opinion, because lurking a derail like this from a while back helped me really understand and articulate what I don't like about D&D and helped me find alternatives If you like D&D, that's awesome, but I think it's useful and good to talk about what it does poorly, especially if it saves people from playing bad elfgames
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Apr 15, 2018 20:42
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I like how Agent355 has just easily avoided engaging in the arguments because they can just dip out by summoning up the smokescreen of ~The Edition Wars~ and claiming that leaving is thus for the good of the thread.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:45
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Agent355 posted:To me that reads 'I want to make an unreasonable bad character, and the system won't let me', because you CAN be a charismatic fighter, but you can't be the most charismatic person in the room and also the best fighter in the room because that is not a good or interesting character to be.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:46
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Waffles Inc. posted:I mean, you do you OP--no one thinks anyone is like, a bad person for liking D&D. Oh I enjoyed the conversation before the edition wars showed up. I don't really understand your perspective on character building. I think it's fundamentally flawed to want to be able to make 'any' character since not 'any' character really has a valid spot in a narrative. Especially when its a cooperative narrative where one person shouldn't be stealing the spotlight. It's really only the tired old arguments people throw out about how because of X, Y, Z problems that you (general you) should hate 5e or 4e or w/e your preferred system is. Or how there is this other system that would totally suit you better because of people's own perceived ideas about what you enjoy. I mean I've played thousands of hours of tabletop games on roll20 alone, I can't accurately portray the vast array of aspects I enjoy about all the various systems or whether its the system or the table that makes a game fun. People in this thread are particularly prone to making GBS threads the place up with absolutes on editions I find.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:46
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