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mastershakeman posted:It's pretty funny that effectively every change wotc made to tsr's giant unwieldy mess has actually blown up in their faces due to unforeseen consequences. and somehow it keeps getting worse IIRC, you said you were a software dev. If so, surely you recognize this problem. D&D is forty year old legacy software, inherited from another company and shoehorned to accomplish a task it was never intended to.
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Apr 16, 2018 17:03
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Frankston posted:Vent post about lovely group members: Easier said than done I know but honestly that's your core issue.
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Apr 16, 2018 17:14
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Frankston posted:Vent post about lovely group members: This is a layer cake of problems that plague many groups. People who spend the whole game doing something else confuse me because it makes me question whether they even want to be there playing the game at all. The guy who can't remember what spells do what should just have a print out of all of their spells, perhaps with annotations. Generally, the DM has to rein that poo poo in hard, but it just sounds like a bunch of the players don't even want to play?
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Apr 16, 2018 17:14
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Six people is what, 30 minutes between turns in combat? That sounds dreadfully boring.
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Apr 16, 2018 17:15
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DalaranJ posted:IIRC, you said you were a software dev. If so, surely you recognize this problem. D&D is forty year old legacy software, inherited from another company and shoehorned to accomplish a task it was never intended to. While simultaneously being expected to be everything to everyone. So it is a 40 year legacy project imported from a different company that has completely contradictory requirements flying in from multiple user communities.
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Apr 16, 2018 17:17
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Frankston posted:Vent post about lovely group members: "Hey guys, no phones etc. at the gaming table please." Why do so many groups struggle with saying this? e: Xae posted:So it is a 40 year legacy project imported from a different company that has completely contradictory requirements flying in from multiple user communities. Huh, that makes a lot of sense, actually. Hell, pretty much all of D&D is a feature-creeped wargame. lofi fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 17:21
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With the idea that it was an imported legacy system that your company paid lots of money for so by god drat we are going to use it and you need to just make this poo poo work... DnD 6e, you are given free hand to do the needful so long as it'll print money (in ttrpg terns) and keep the brand in good reputation, which means it has that DnD feel to it, which seems to be both unqualifiable and yet a moving goalpost. What would you guys want to axe immediately and/or who would you want to see designing it, if you just have a favorite dev/dev team?
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Apr 16, 2018 17:49
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Phones and computers at the table needs to be banned for real. D&D should be a break from that poo poo.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:01
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Dameius posted:DnD 6e, you are given free hand to do the needful so long as it'll print money (in ttrpg terns) and keep the brand in good reputation, which means it has that DnD feel to it, which seems to be both unqualifiable and yet a moving goalpost. The absolute biggest thing is that the rulebooks should codify "failing forward" into the culture of the game. To put it another way, a career criminal theif (like a level 6 Rogue or something) should absolutely not be failing to pick a lock. A low roll should result not in a failure to pick the lock, but in something bad/interesting/whatever happening as a result of the low roll Also get rid of perception as a skill. And merge a couple abilities. kidkissinger posted:Phones and computers at the table needs to be banned for real. In an upcoming campaign I'm running (not D&D) I'm gonna have a phone basket--do y'all think that's too out of line?
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Apr 16, 2018 18:11
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Dameius posted:What would you guys want to axe immediately and/or who would you want to see designing it, if you just have a favorite dev/dev team?
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Apr 16, 2018 18:12
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Waffles Inc. posted:In an upcoming campaign I'm running (not D&D) I'm gonna have a phone basket--do y'all think that's too out of line? I've done it before and didn't regret it at all.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:13
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Dameius posted:With the idea that it was an imported legacy system that your company paid lots of money for so by god drat we are going to use it and you need to just make this poo poo work... 1. Fewer Spells per Caster Goal - 5 spells per level per Class. There should be a couple of spells per level that the base class gets and a couple more as a result of the subclass. 2. Fix the Charisma Caster Clusterfuck Move Warlocks to Int, maybe Sorcerers to Wisdom? 3. Balance pass on classes and Subclasses 4. Fix the multi-classing system. Stop designing half assed classes for fear that someone can multi-class and "break things". Restrict multi-classing and stop pretending it is optional but designing everything around it.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:17
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I run my game on Roll20. I'd give my left nut for a loving lockout browser on my players. "Oh what where am I?" is the most obnoxious and grating statement. I get that it takes a little bit to get back to you in combat, but loving engage. poo poo happens when it's not your turn that you should be aware of.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:17
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Why does it need to be balanced? For pvp random queues?
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Apr 16, 2018 18:22
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Waffles Inc. posted:The absolute biggest thing is that the rulebooks should codify "failing forward" into the culture of the game. To put it another way, a career criminal theif (like a level 6 Rogue or something) should absolutely not be failing to pick a lock. A low roll should result not in a failure to pick the lock, but in something bad/interesting/whatever happening as a result of the low roll I use a tablet tons for gaming but airplane mode exists.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:25
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Firstborn posted:Why does it need to be balanced? For pvp random queues? Balance is so one player doesn't fall rear end backwards into playing Thor while another player is stuck playing Jim the hobo, and both characters are presented in the book as being equally powerful.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:29
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Dameius posted:With the idea that it was an imported legacy system that your company paid lots of money for so by god drat we are going to use it and you need to just make this poo poo work... Burn it to the ground. It's a painful move that should have already happened by now, but the system needs to be designed from the ground up by no one that has ever touched D&D before because chasing purestrain D&D is an idiotic and unsustainable move. Focus on making a good, engaging game and try your best to ride the livestream trend to counteract the groggy hissy fits.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:29
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Firstborn posted:Why does it need to be balanced? For pvp random queues? It doesn't need to be WoW level +-5% or everything is DOOOOOOMMEEDDD balance, but there are a couple of subclasses that are pretty garbage with out some house rules. There are a couple of other things like Sleep and Hypnotic Pattern that need a good whack with the nerf bat.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:30
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Xae posted:It doesn't need to be WoW level +-5% or everything is DOOOOOOMMEEDDD balance, but there are a couple of subclasses that are pretty garbage with out some house rules. Sleep just needs to be re-worked. It's really powerful right when you get it but it doesn't scale well at all.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:40
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Firstborn posted:Why does it need to be balanced? For pvp random queues? Yes, for PVP random queues. 
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Apr 16, 2018 18:43
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Firstborn posted:Why does it need to be balanced? For pvp random queues? Because D&D says "here is a bunch of character options, pick the character you think is best for you" without: *Explaining that some combinations of things (such as certain combinations of classes and ability scores) will make you much worse at your core role than you likely are aware of and *Does not tell you that some characters have more declarative impact on the game than others and *Does not tell you that some classes are more boring in play than others. The player base then says, "well, I like it that way so gently caress you" and I guess new players are supposed to keep on trucking along with their Champion Fighter until they learn all the lessons the hard way same as everybody else. That's why.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:49
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Dameius posted:With the idea that it was an imported legacy system that your company paid lots of money for so by god drat we are going to use it and you need to just make this poo poo work... I would create three completely incompatible products. “Into the Dungeon” An exploration based rpg about villagers who try to scrape up treasure by exploring nearby cave complexes. “Against the Dragons” A descent like board game (with a management app) with better tactical sense and awesome set pieces inherited from 4e. It would also have an incredibly complex character design system more like an rpg than a board game. “Heroes of Dungeons and Dragons” A narrative rpg about heroes doing heroic stuff and saving the world with plenty of great fantasy storylines and characters. Probably set in FR. No one would buy significant quantities of any of these and I would get a pink slip for Christmas.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:49
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Was a joke, guys. Didn't mean to hurt any feelings.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:50
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Firstborn posted:Was a joke, guys. Didn't mean to hurt any feelings. I'm shook. Literally shaking right now.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:51
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The PHB does a pretty good job of detailing which classes are boring, though.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:53
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Splicer posted:Str Con merge priority number one. Add in a decent benny system. While I’m spitting red hot takes here, my opinion is, if a game must have ability scores, the objectively correct number of ability scores is 4. Merge Con into Star, and Int into Wis.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:54
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The differences between Int and Wis and Str and Con are cool and make sense, though. Just "balance" the ability scores by making more gnarly awful stuff requires Saves that are tied to less popular scores. It's pretty inherent that every class has 1 save tied to a bunch of poo poo*, and another not so much. It kind of works in that way, I guess, if we're talking 5E? I also invite players to lawyer skills. With some creativity, you can substitute different skills... obviously you can't like punch a book so hard you investigate it, but if the player was confident enough he could do it, i'll entertain the idea. This is another exaggeration, please don't make fun of me. *E: One save that is tested very often and used in a lot of spells and affects, and another that is called upon less. Firstborn fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 18:57
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Firstborn posted:The differences between Int and Wis and Str and Con are cool and make sense, though. Just "balance" the ability scores by making more gnarly awful stuff requires Saves that are tied to less popular scores. It's pretty inherent that every class has 1 save tied to a bunch of poo poo, and another not so much. It kind of works in that way, I guess, if we're talking 5E? Sorry, but if you don't let a muscle wizard warp reality through the power of "Sweet Gains Bro" you're a poo poo DM.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:59
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We might be fighting a blue dragon and/or storm giants. Difficulty: I am a Tempest cleric. Difficulty 2: I intend to spend a prep slot for Zone of Truth in hopes that I can make my idiot group stop loving lying and getting ourselves into easily avoided clusterfucks. What the poo poo do I even prep? 4th level spells, 1 5th level slot, 12 spells to prep + Zone of Truth.
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Apr 16, 2018 19:00
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/\/\/\ Can't you just ask, in character, for the other PCs to stop being shitheels and maybe show reverence to a loving dragon? Xae posted:Sorry, but if you don't let a muscle wizard warp reality through the power of "Sweet Gains Bro" you're a poo poo DM. I mean I literally just said I would listen to it, but yeah.
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Apr 16, 2018 19:01
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They balanced intelligence by removing the fact that it gave skill points and then putting it on the least-used save in the game. I think in XGTE having higher int cuts the training time for new proficiencies and stuff, but that's unlikely to come up in most campaigns. Cutting your 250 training days in half is still often an order of magnitude longer than you'll get for downtime.
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Apr 16, 2018 19:02
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Firstborn posted:The PHB does a pretty good job of detailing which classes are boring, though. Do you have an example of this? And is it a positive thing if some classes are boring to play? And as an addendum to that question, does a class designed for simplicity necessarily have to be boring in play?
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Apr 16, 2018 19:03
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Firstborn posted:/\/\/\ Can't you just ask, in character, for the other PCs to stop being shitheels and maybe show reverence to a loving dragon? I literally made an in-character ultimatum that if they can't be polite to the loving storm giants my character was going to stay in Bryn Shander and I'd roll someone new. Now we're in a goddamn palace and can't easily leave and they're doing it anyway. At some point I'm going to have to abandon these people, but I don't really want to do it just yet. edit: I think I'm gonna give the ultimatum teeth and sell them out. "Look, I made them promise to be nice to you and they're lying to your face. I apologize for their behavior and if you want to lock them up, I won't try to stop you" Nehru the Damaja fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 19:04
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Firstborn posted:The PHB does a pretty good job of detailing which classes are boring, though. ahh the old "we trained him wrong as a joke" maneuver
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Apr 16, 2018 19:07
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Nickoten posted:Do you have an example of this? And is it a positive thing if some classes are boring to play? And as an addendum to that question, does a class designed for simplicity necessarily have to be boring in play? Yeah, I could give you some examples. There are like 90 pages of spells in the book - like almost a third of it is closed to some classes. All of their abilities are listed plainly, and when you compare something like "gets disguise kit" -> "gets better disguise kit" of an Assassin to something like reading the weird Pact stuff that Warlocks get, it's easier to see which one would be more "boring". Compare Champion to the other fighter subclasses. If your game is really narrative, and you really get to shape and control what you do in combat beyond "I use hit monster, then move, then use hit monster power", you could find it very not boring. The caveat of everything being so modular and lame rules having the simple out of "talk to your DM" makes everything kind of moot. Arguing RAW/RAI is fun and I like to read the minutiae, but some people post as if they playing Baldur's Gate or something, and their DM is some inflexible robot who never lets cool things happen (my apologies if this is your case). I guess, this boils back down to... let your Martial guys do cool things. Nehru the Damaja posted:I literally made an in-character ultimatum that if they can't be polite to the loving storm giants my character was going to stay in Bryn Shander and I'd roll someone new. Well, if you leave your character in town and make a new guy, you could make a lying shitheel with them and go that route. I think unless their dishonesty is really like derailing the game, just go with it. If they are flippantly lying to gently caress over the party, that's different and bad. Just have the social contract at the table where everyone will be working together and the characters are adventurers or at least have a reason to try to be. I have not really read into SKT, but from what I gather in order to be hooked your PCs have to not be selfish turds, so maybe remind everyone of the premise if you can do it without being a jerk. If the DM is fed up, he could probably just smash them down a peg if it was really bothering them, and get one of their lies ousted or something. PCs who don't want to go on an adventure are bad PCs. Firstborn fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 19:11
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multipler users posted:D&D is forty year old legacy software, inherited from another company and shoehorned to accomplish a task it was never intended to. these are are very good points. 4e was really the one time they tried to change things up and got horrible backlash; it's too bad they did that just prior to the board game renaissance out there now which might've allowed for better marketing and whatnot Int and wisdom are flat out bad scores. Recently our DM had his homebrew change those up, we now use 3 mental stats just like 3 phys stats. So instead of int&wisdom (and every player going my character wouldn't make a dumb decision with these great stats!) it's now recall, problem solving, and wit, which are all fairly self explanatory. But real d&d is never going to move past those original six no matter how badly they work. charisma straight up shouldn't even exist, neither should social skills. they're a giant god drat mess. at worst I'd think charisma should have zero combat effect and be the only thing that affected social skills , so if you wanted to specialize in those , any class would do it equally to any other (other than mad classes that are hosed anyways) mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 19:13
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Also, nobody mentioned potential Background features as a way for your charismatic fighter or whatever bad ability score guy you were rolling. There's so many features of backgrounds that are essentially "just roleplay it out", and if you were say... a Sailor... maybe you can find a way to work that in. If you took Noble, the little prestige thing doesn't say make a CHA check to see if people respect you and hear you out, as far as I remember. Backgrounds are cool and good.
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Apr 16, 2018 19:20
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I literally made an in-character ultimatum that if they can't be polite to the loving storm giants my character was going to stay in Bryn Shander and I'd roll someone new. If they're insistent on playing murderhobos then they can murderhobo their way out of jail, then you can just peace out for a few sessions and come back later after enjoying the palace v  v
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Apr 16, 2018 19:22
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Backgrounds are criminally underutilized in general.
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Apr 16, 2018 19:27
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Firstborn posted:Well, if you leave your character in town and make a new guy, you could make a lying shitheel with them and go that route. I think unless their dishonesty is really like derailing the game, just go with it. If they are flippantly lying to gently caress over the party, that's different and bad. We're in the royal family's castle. It's too late to go back on it. We're there and what little secrecy we had is going to be blown because everyone's going to tell stories of these idiot small people who came in and told a wild pack of lies. I legit don't see a solution to this that doesn't sell out our no-filter habitually lying liability.
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Apr 16, 2018 19:28
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