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Orthodox Rabbit posted:what if this book is actually pro-vampire propaganda The vampire pee tape is real.
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Apr 16, 2018 17:03
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I think this book gives an accurate representation of a libertarian. He hates taxes, but doesn't mind living off other people's tax money (which they don't even know they're paying for because monsters are a secret only governments and MRAs  know about).
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Apr 16, 2018 17:13
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I mean, hey, its not like a literal subhuman is being depicted entirely from randomly cobbled together tropes of colonial era stereotypes against indigenous peoples. Or that he is depicted as infantile and literally subservient to the smarter, better, whiter, more European masters to whom he gleefully and unquestioningly follows. nothing to see here, no sir. He is essentially indistinguishable from a Tonto or Friday and the fact that its because he is not even human makes it so much worse. Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 17:14
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We get it.
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Apr 16, 2018 17:49
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It also occurs to me this also creates the problematic precedent that the only good subhuman is one who can be made subservient, otherwise they must be annihilated. Its barely even a metaphor anymore
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Apr 16, 2018 17:52
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hey OP we've gone about 30 pages without any gratuitous violence. I'm getting a little itchy here when do we get our next dose of zombie killing gun porn
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Apr 16, 2018 18:01
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gently caress it, i'll bite: what is a "cabbage point", is it a place name or another ancient webcomic thing or what
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Apr 16, 2018 18:18
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Mel Mudkiper posted:It also occurs to me this also creates the problematic precedent that the only good subhuman is one who can be made subservient, otherwise they must be annihilated. I don't know, you said a person forcibly being converted to a vampire is similar to being black or Muslim, so it does seem like you have trouble with metaphors.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:05
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LostRook posted:I don't know, you said a person forcibly being converted to a vampire is similar to being black or Muslim, so it does seem like you have trouble with metaphors. I suppose I should not be surprised a fan of the series has such poor reading comprehension
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Apr 16, 2018 21:15
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I suppose I should not be surprised a fan of the series has such poor reading comprehension I'm not a fan of the series. I'm reading the thread for fun. You're the one lobbing the word "subhuman" into the conversation about colonial stereotypes and reading into other people's motives.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:18
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LostRook posted:You're the one lobbing the word "subhuman" into the conversation about colonial stereotypes and reading into other people's motives. This is such an aggressive misreading of every single point that I have to conclude you are either illiterate or insincere, neither of which is worth debating
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Apr 16, 2018 21:20
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LostRook posted:I don't know, you said a person forcibly being converted to a vampire is similar to being black or Muslim, so it does seem like you have trouble with metaphors. I don't think racism is quite accurate for the viewpoint espoused by the book, btw. The protagonists are relatively racially diverse for this sort of fiction. What I mean is, I don't think Larry thinks of himself as a racist, but he merely has disdain and hatred for people who don't agree with his libertarian, anti-government, might makes right, machismo-overdosed politics, and doesn't self-reflect (or have enough empathy?) to recognize why that is a position that is inherently hostile to minorities. He doesn't hate black people, he hates those black people who tell him he's wrong and want to take away Are Guns. It's still racist, obviously, in the same way Lovecraft's everything was still bigoted even though he was genuinely and deeply afraid of basically everything outside of a narrow comfort zone and inside of it too. I enjoy the Mythos but even if you ignore the blatantly racist stuff Lovecraft's authorial viewpoint is based on the assumption that that which is foreign and alien is also dangerous, corruptive, and uncaring. I prefer my cosmic horror more nuanced, though not less alien.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:23
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Mel Mudkiper posted:This is such an aggressive misreading of every single point that I have to conclude you are either illiterate or insincere, neither of which is worth debating Hey, if you aren't capable of debating it that's fine. Your use of 'subhuman' stands on it's own.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:24
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LostRook posted:I'm not a fan of the series. I'm reading the thread for fun.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:25
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PetraCore posted:Uh as far as I can tell Skippy is literally not human and is being written as and portrayed as 'subhuman', which is where the implications of the extremely racist Man Friday tropes get even more unfortunate. Exactly. Glad I am not the only one seeing this.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:29
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PetraCore posted:Uh as far as I can tell Skippy is literally not human and is being written as and portrayed as 'subhuman', which is where the implications of the extremely racist Man Friday tropes get even more unfortunate. Okay, what's the difference between non-human, which you've ascribed to vampires that eat people, and subhuman which we've ascribed to Skippy quite quickly? His deference to the protagonist? The call out of it being only given to Pitt just seems like more Mary Sue garbage. He flies a chopper and doesn't eat people seems a bit more human than a vampire. PetraCore posted:He didn't say that, he pointed out that the root of racial and religious violence is the ability to dehumanize people who are different than you, so the literal nonhuman serves as a stand-in for the metaphorical non-human. I don't think that makes vampire horror inherently racist, even bad and cheap vampire horror that makes no effort to actually explain why vampires are Inherently Evil aside from needing to feed on humans, but it's something I'm more willing to nitpick with this author considering the rest of the book. Have you read the rest of the book, or just what we've seen so far?
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Apr 16, 2018 21:31
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LostRook posted:Okay, what's the difference between non-human, which you've ascribed to vampires that eat people, and subhuman which we've ascribed to Skippy quite quickly? His deference to the protagonist? The call out of it being only given to Pitt just seems like more Mary Sue garbage. non-human suggests something which is not human. sub-human suggests something beneath human Vampires are non-human, Skippy is clearly subhuman as well as non-human. LostRook posted:He flies a chopper and doesn't eat people seems a bit more human than a vampire. I would suggest humanity has more to do with agency than with skills
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Apr 16, 2018 21:33
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Mel Mudkiper posted:non-human suggests something which is not human. Okay so you think Skippy is subhuman because he talks funny? Mel Mudkiper posted:non-human suggests something which is not human. Given the absolute moral switch the vampires engage, need to eat people and the fact that to this point all vampires seem to have been forcibly changed they seem to be quite lacking in agency. Meanwhile Skippy is subhuman because he thinks Pitt is royalty for some dumb reason? The total lack of moral element in the argument is also worth noting. You've already spoken of being too aggressive in tearing the book apart, and it definitely feels like your projecting both the author and your own prejudices into this.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:40
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LostRook posted:Okay so you think Skippy is subhuman because he talks funny? No, its because he is a wholly subservient imbecile who is essentially owned by MHI and gleefully serves them
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Apr 16, 2018 21:44
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So people that talk funny are imbeciles?
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Apr 16, 2018 21:45
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Wow Mel Mudkiper, that's some pretty xenophobic & bigoted language you are using there. Skippy can make himself be understood in English & who knows how many languages, plus is capable of a highly technical & difficult profession - flying a helicopter. Sounds less that he's "sub human" and more that you are attributing human-centric biases & your own internalized hatred towards other races & painting them onto a fictional character that by any rational examination is a representative from a foreign culture who is a valued & necessary member of the MHI staff. Your naked disdain & utter lack of respect for other cultures reflects rather poorly on you.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:51
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LostRook posted:So people that talk funny are imbeciles? Do you honestly believe his way of talking is meant just to be "funny" and not at all representative of anything else
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Apr 16, 2018 21:51
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Skippy speaks broken English, is very clearly covering up the fact that he's not a human by wearing a ski mask and heavy duds in the summer in the South and also clearly comes from a different culture with different values and has different societal expectations. The broken English mixed with the fact that he's their pilot for the helicopter and the fact that he's only acting in an assisting capacity rather than a more active capacity (at the moment) does in fact paint Skippy as less important as everyone else (at the moment). Mix that with a cultural misunderstanding where he now immediately values our protagonist Triple HP Gunfast as a celebrity/important person due to his familial connections, Skippy is being painted with the same brushes as you'd see a early 20th century pulp adventure novel use for the foreign assistant and/or guide/friendly domesticated savage, both awful contrivances of the genre that need to die. Here's the thing: this isn't subtext so much as it's text, it's pretty much just 90s Angelfire "dANNY' SROM WAREHOUSE" neon red-on-black hypertext. There's only so much that can be said about it at the moment because it's plain as the nose on a face. I'm more interested in where exactly this all goes because there's a difference between "a racism is here but then it did something unexpected" and "a racism is here and then it did exactly what was expected", the book is not yet complete and we don't see all the pieces put together. Is it good? No but I want to see the whole house and if there's more I'm going to hate than just the kitchen. Vox Valentine fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 21:54
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sky shark posted:a representative from a foreign culture who is a valued & necessary member of the MHI staff. Your naked disdain & utter lack of respect for other cultures reflects rather poorly on you. See I know you are being insincere and fumbling at a "gotcha" but still you might want to look into the Man Friday trope to see exactly where this argument falls apart.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:56
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Mel Mudkiper posted:See I know you are being insincere and fumbling at a "gotcha" but still you might want to look into the Man Friday trope to see exactly where this argument falls apart. Nah, it's clear you are a racist. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 16, 2018 21:57
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Hostile V posted:Skippy speaks broken English, is very clearly covering up the fact that he's not a human by wearing a ski mask and heavy duds in the summer in the South and also clearly comes from a different culture with different values and has different societal expectations. The broken English mixed with the fact that he's their pilot for the helicopter and the fact that he's only acting in an assisting capacity rather than a more active capacity (at the moment) does in fact paint Skippy as less important as everyone else. Mix that with a cultural misunderstanding where he now immediately values our protagonist Triple HP Gunfast as a celebrity/important person due to his familial connections, Skippy is being painted with the same brushes as you'd see a early 20th century pulp adventure novel use for the foreign assistant and/or guide/friendly domesticated savage, both awful contrivances of the genre that need to die.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:57
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Hostile V posted:I'm more interested in where exactly this all goes because there's a difference between "a racism is here but then it did something unexpected" and "a racism is here and then it did exactly what was expected", the book is not yet complete and we don't see all the pieces put together. Is it good? No but I want to see the whole house and if there's more I'm going to hate than just the kitchen. A fair point, I admit I am a bit cynical that it is going to go anywhere, say, progressive
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Apr 16, 2018 21:58
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Although I'll note a lot of bad authors tend to give characters who aren't fluent in english very stereotypical 'broken english' without actually looking into how their native tongue differs from English and what sort of mistakes would be expected from someone learning English with that as their base language.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:59
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PetraCore posted:Although I'll note a lot of bad authors tend to give characters who aren't fluent in english very stereotypical 'broken english' without actually looking into how their native tongue differs from English and what sort of mistakes would be expected from someone learning English with that as their base language. Well sure, I am not so much accusing the text of conscious racism as I am pointing out the character is built from colonial tropes including his specific way of speaking. It's not simply broken English, its specifically the sort of "primitive English" almost universally given to subservient non white characters in colonial era fiction.
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Apr 16, 2018 22:02
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Well sure, I am not so much accusing the text of conscious racism as I am pointing out the character is built from colonial tropes including his specific way of speaking.
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Apr 16, 2018 22:17
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Well sure, I am not so much accusing the text of conscious racism as I am pointing out the character is built from colonial tropes including his specific way of speaking. Which differs from broken English how specifically? Hostile V posted:Skippy speaks broken English, is very clearly covering up the fact that he's not a human by wearing a ski mask and heavy duds in the summer in the South and also clearly comes from a different culture with different values and has different societal expectations. The broken English mixed with the fact that he's their pilot for the helicopter and the fact that he's only acting in an assisting capacity rather than a more active capacity (at the moment) does in fact paint Skippy as less important as everyone else (at the moment). Mix that with a cultural misunderstanding where he now immediately values our protagonist Triple HP Gunfast as a celebrity/important person due to his familial connections, Skippy is being painted with the same brushes as you'd see a early 20th century pulp adventure novel use for the foreign assistant and/or guide/friendly domesticated savage, both awful contrivances of the genre that need to die. Thank you, some good analysis. Mel's jumping to 'subhuman' and the fact that he's contradicting himself makes for poor analysis and reading.
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Apr 16, 2018 22:19
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LostRook posted:Which differs from broken English how specifically? Now, we haven't seen enough of Skippy to determine how intelligent he is, or where he's from, or how much of a well-rounded character with his own desires and motivations independent of the protagonists he is. But it's not poor analysis to point out that it's off to a shaky start. I don't even agree with everything Mel has said, but I think I lot of people are jumping on him to jump on him.
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Apr 16, 2018 22:23
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So it's an inaccurate depiction of a nonhuman speaking English? That makes Skippy 'subhuman'?
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Apr 16, 2018 22:27
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LostRook posted:So it's an inaccurate depiction of a nonhuman speaking English? EDIT: If I made an alien species who, when learning english, sounded like old chinaman stereotypes down to 'verry verry solly' it would still be racist even if they weren't human. EDIT 2, ELECTRIC BOOGALOO: also Skippy is presumably from somewhere on Earth and while we don't know yet if his native tongue is an actual language it can still be used to stereotype, even if the stereotype might be like, eastern european or something. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 22:28
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PetraCore posted:Okay, quick question: are you disingenuous or just very, very stupid? I have wrestled with the same question. Ultimately both are a waste of time to argue with.
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Apr 16, 2018 22:30
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PetraCore posted:Okay, quick question: are you disingenuous or just very, very stupid? Well, if I understand you, you want the author to accurately depict broken English for someone that doesn't speak an actual language. Are you expecting to go full Tolkien inventing a language? Otherwise, I would at least like an explanation for how you think broken English ought to be differentiated from a "character is built from colonial tropes including his specific way of speaking.' Otherwise, your thesis seems to be that accents are racist. Edit: PetraCore posted:EDIT: If I made an alien species who, when learning english, sounded like old chinaman stereotypes down to 'verry verry solly' it would still be racist even if they weren't human. Like here, you provide a example of a racist accent and how that would play out. But you seem unable or unwilling to do that with Skippy.
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Apr 16, 2018 22:32
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I have wrestled with the same question. Ultimately both are a waste of time to argue with.
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Apr 16, 2018 22:32
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PetraCore posted:I mean, I don't mind having to clarify my thoughts and build a stronger argument, but only for the people reading the thread, not for the person who constantly insincerely nitpicks small details so they can say I'm contridicting myself and actually the real racist. Have I called you racist? I'll note the closest I did to that was to Mel, and he's not bother with clarifying his thoughts or building a stronger argument because he knows he's contradicting himself.
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Apr 16, 2018 22:34
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LostRook posted:Well, if I understand you, you want the author to accurately depict broken English for someone that doesn't speak an actual language. Are you expecting to go full Tolkien inventing a language? The thing about lovely racist or sexist stereotypes is there's times you can't avoid potentially falling into some of them no matter what you write, because often there's double-binds built in so that the people involved can never truly win. A promiscuous woman is a slut, a woman who isn't promiscuous is a frigid bitch, a woman who stays at home with the kids is submissive and boring, a woman that prioritizes her career is cold, ambitious, and trying to 'act like a man', a woman who does both is asking for too much. I use those examples because attitudes towards women are some of the most pervasive 'can't win' scenarios because it's so varied. But anyway, the solution isn't to avoid writing anything that could potentially be seen as a stereotype, because that leaves you, say, with no way to write women, avoiding writing academically successful Asian characters, making sure you don't write black characters that are too athletic or too emotional or who get angry at all or ever come from a situation of less than middle class socioeconomic status while being able to write straight white cis guys in whatever way you like. The solution is to build your characters up as real people with agency, motivations, and emotional range, doing your research and writing them as a person first while acknowledging unique experiences they might have.
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Apr 16, 2018 22:41
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LostRook posted:because he knows he's contradicting himself. I straight up don't even know what you're talking about
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Apr 16, 2018 22:41
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