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Horrible Lurkbeast posted:I disagree. Most of the aid that Israel gets from the US isn't actual dollars - it's vouchers for a certain amount of free military equipment from the US. We've mostly phased out direct assistance to Israel in favor of just subsidizing their military purchases instead. If the US cut off aid, that'd cut Israel's military budget by about a fifth...but considering the state of Israel's military to that of its primary foes, it can get away with spending significantly less on military hardware. It's not like they need to buy a wing of F-35s to bomb Gazan hospitals. Israel is perfectly capable of maintaining its military supremacy without US aid at this point, and it can partially make up for it by robbing the PA some more and leaning harder on Germany for military aid. A US embargo on military sales to Israel would be a very different story (though as Iran shows, even that has limited effectiveness), but that's so far into the realm of fiction that there's no real point in talking about it.
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Apr 16, 2018 16:04
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I guess so, I just wish that other countries would stop enabling this poo poo. I've no bright ideas here. 
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Apr 16, 2018 16:08
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No you see refusing to literally give Israel free military equipment is collective punishment and probably ethnic cleansing.
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Apr 16, 2018 16:19
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Kim Jong Il posted:The right of return necessitates the mass ethnic cleansing of millions. If someone literally returns to their ancestral home, and someone else is already living there (given the equal number of Jewish refugees from Arab ethnic cleansing), the new party is displaced. Attempts have been made to dance around this by claiming that Palestinians either largely wouldn't want to return, or would want to self-segregate. If those claims were actually true, they would be made into explicit demands, instead of Hamas loudly insisting that every single inch is theirs and they will ethnically cleanse every Jewish resident. I am p sure the right of return doesn't mean Palestinians going around and kicking people out of houses. I am pretty sure it just means Palestinians being allowed to return to the state of Israel if they originally lived there, so what you mean by "the new party is displaced" seems to be the same thing white suburban Americans mean when they whinge about a black family moving into the neighborhood.
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Apr 16, 2018 16:22
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VitalSigns posted:I am p sure the right of return doesn't mean Palestinians going around and kicking people out of houses. KJI's logic could also be used to argue that allowing Jewish people the right of return would mean displacing existing Israelis or Palestinians (not that it does, but using his "people emigrating to Israel means displacing current Israelis" logic it would have to imply this).
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Apr 16, 2018 17:21
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VitalSigns posted:I am p sure the right of return doesn't mean Palestinians going around and kicking people out of houses.
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Apr 16, 2018 17:56
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Dead Reckoning posted:Actually, it's commonly argued to include anyone who claims to have lived in Israel (since most people aren't going to have proof of prior residency from 70 years ago) and their descendants. So... pretty much any member of the Palestinian diaspora that chooses to make a claim. It's also usually asserted to include a right to citizenship, reparations, or both. The claim was, specifically, that it means ethnic cleansing and removing Israelis from their homes. So you appear to be agreeing with me, as believing undocumented claims, bestowing citizenship, and paying monetary damages for property lost in the Nakba are not equivalent to ethnic cleansing or population removal (even if you don't like those proposals, they are unambiguously not comparable to ethnic cleansing) Characterizing other people moving into the same general area where you live as "replacement" is the Charlottesville Nazi Rally's position. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 18:08
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https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/985942646311940097 This is what the Jewish right wing looks like in america.
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Apr 16, 2018 19:11
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VitalSigns posted:The claim was, specifically, that it means ethnic cleansing and removing Israelis from their homes. So you appear to be agreeing with me, as believing undocumented claims, bestowing citizenship, and paying monetary damages for property lost in the Nakba are not equivalent to ethnic cleansing or population removal (even if you don't like those proposals, they are unambiguously not comparable to ethnic cleansing)
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Apr 16, 2018 20:03
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mcmagic posted:https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/985942646311940097 Lmao just look at him, what a happy Nazi.
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Apr 16, 2018 23:32
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Wouldn't the US not vetoing every UN resoultion against Israel go a lot further than any military budget cuts? It's not like they need our finest anti-tank missiles for dealing with Gaza, that's more for the Iran bogyman.
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Apr 17, 2018 00:15
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Dead Reckoning posted:The fact that his claim is not direct or intuitive does not make what you posted correct. Doesn't make it incorrect, either.
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Apr 17, 2018 00:40
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pro starcraft loser posted:Wouldn't the US not vetoing every UN resoultion against Israel go a lot further than any military budget cuts? It's not like they need our finest anti-tank missiles for dealing with Gaza, that's more for the Iran bogyman. Given that Obama did just in his last days in office and it made no discernible difference to the situation I'm pretty sure you are wrong. The US would have to not veto UN resolutions that actually involve actions against Israel for them to make a difference.
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Apr 17, 2018 07:53
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Israel sure did freak the absolute gently caress out though.
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Apr 17, 2018 17:37
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pro starcraft loser posted:Wouldn't the US not vetoing every UN resoultion against Israel go a lot further than any military budget cuts? It's not like they need our finest anti-tank missiles for dealing with Gaza, that's more for the Iran bogyman. Not unless the UNSC offers up a resolution calling for actual action against Israel, such as an embargo - and even that wouldn't have any teeth unless the US also agreed to assist in enforcing it. The reason that Israel is being so careless about its relationship with the US is that it no longer needs active US support. Even if all US financial and military aid were cut off tomorrow and the US abstained from all Israel-related UN votes, Israel would still have a powerful modern military, with plenty of state-of-the-art American and European equipment as well as having one of the largest arms manufacturing industries in the world themselves, all backed by the threat of nuclear weapons. I'd be tempted to say that outright refusing to sell military hardware to Israel, or even imposing sanctions, might be enough to get them to change their tune a bit. But on the other hand, Iran has been dealing with those kinds of conditions for nearly half a century now and they're still one of the major military powers in the region, with no sign of bowing to US demands.
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Apr 17, 2018 18:21
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https://twitter.com/geoffreyjewdas/status/986188237705183232?s=21
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Apr 17, 2018 20:45
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Horrible Lurkbeast posted:
Who gives a poo poo what she does, gently caress JVP for supporting BDS, opposing the peace process, and repeatedly apologizing for anti-Semitism. They're pro-war shitheads who want millions to die and be ethnically cleansed. The only thing that would happen if we listen to idiots like JVP or Munayyer is an outcome 1000x worse than what's happened in Gaza already. VitalSigns posted:I am p sure the right of return doesn't mean Palestinians going around and kicking people out of houses. If it did they'd explicitly state this. What do you think is meant by them carrying around keys everywhere? Ytlaya posted:KJI's logic could also be used to argue that allowing Jewish people the right of return would mean displacing existing Israelis or Palestinians (not that it does, but using his "people emigrating to Israel means displacing current Israelis" logic it would have to imply this). No it can't, because no one's asking for the land the Romans ethnically cleansed them from. That's not my argument in the slightest. It's literally about land and home deeds.
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Apr 18, 2018 03:05
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But don't you see?! By refusing to go and calling Israel an apartheid state she is hurting the feelings of fine Jews such as Sheldon Adelson!
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You're both reprehensible and incoherent my dude.
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Apr 18, 2018 04:17
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Kim Jong Il posted:No it can't, because no one's asking for the land the Romans ethnically cleansed them from. That's not my argument in the slightest. It's literally about land and home deeds. Okay, I'm going to plead ignorance here because my knowledge of the IP situation is mostly based on the last century and the justification of a Jewish State seemed mostly based on real ongoing historical persecution of a religious minority coupled with ahistorical dogma, but... wasn't Rome's entire deal just to send in soldiers, administrators, and a handful of token settlers while each area they conquered was mostly peopled by natives? Maybe the middle east was different, but I don't recall the Romans being known for depopulating the areas they invaded. Correct me if I'm wrong. Then again, I've also read that the Palestinian people are the descendants of the Jewish folk who didn't leave, in any case. Again, I don't really know. Of course, the entire point would be moot if the current Israeli populace actually had ancient scrolls analogous to home deeds, cause KJI would insist they were perfectly applicable as opposed to those terror keys the Palestinians symbolically hang onto as abject threats against Israelis, apparently. A Terrible Person fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 06:49
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Kim Jong Il posted:What do you think is meant by them carrying around keys everywhere? That Israel stole their homes.
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Apr 18, 2018 10:04
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Did he really not know what the keys represent or is he being willfully obtuse
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Apr 18, 2018 12:09
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Mr. Lobe posted:Did he really not know what the keys represent or is he being willfully obtuse both
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Apr 18, 2018 12:28
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lollontee posted:I dunno where this site was posted earlier, butt I love this. Israel deliberately bombs the water treatment plants in Gaza, deliberately prevents Gaza from having 24/7 power by delibrately destroying Gaza's own power plant and delibrately cut power from Israel, and yet it's the Hamas' fault when the water treatment plant destroyed by Israel does not get the power that is withheld by Israel.
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Apr 18, 2018 13:59
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A Terrible Person posted:Okay, I'm going to plead ignorance here because my knowledge of the IP situation is mostly based on the last century and the justification of a Jewish State seemed mostly based on real ongoing historical persecution of a religious minority coupled with ahistorical dogma, but... wasn't Rome's entire deal just to send in soldiers, administrators, and a handful of token settlers while each area they conquered was mostly peopled by natives? My dude, look up the Jewish revolts against the romans and where we get the word 'zealot' from. It took a while but eventually under Hadrian, the Jews were basically genocided and Judaism suppressed. Still not a particularly good argument to use events that happened two thousand-ish years ago about stuff that happened within the last century mind you. NLJP fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 14:16
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Kim Jong Il posted:Who gives a poo poo what she does, gently caress JVP for supporting BDS, opposing the peace process, and repeatedly apologizing for anti-Semitism. They're pro-war shitheads who want millions to die and be ethnically cleansed. The only thing that would happen if we listen to idiots like JVP or Munayyer is an outcome 1000x worse than what's happened in Gaza already. Probably late to a lot of people responding to your bad opinions but I seem to remember that the last time there was a rogue apartheid state, international financial pressure seemed to work...
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Apr 18, 2018 15:47
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Totally not a troll you guys posted:Who gives a poo poo what she does, gently caress JVP for supporting BDS, opposing the peace process...
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Apr 18, 2018 16:13
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mcmagic posted:Probably late to a lot of people responding to your bad opinions but I seem to remember that the last time there was a rogue apartheid state, international financial pressure seemed to work... TBH, it’s hard to say whether it was that or Angola that had more impact on SA’s government folding.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:36
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Darth Walrus posted:TBH, it’s hard to say whether it was that or Angola that had more impact on SA’s government folding. I can't believe it didn't play a major factor... BDS is literally the only option right now for anyone who is even close to realistic about the situation in Israel and not a racist white supremacist. mcmagic fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 16:48
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Kim Jong Il posted:Who gives a poo poo what she does, gently caress JVP for supporting BDS, opposing the peace process, and repeatedly apologizing for anti-Semitism. They're pro-war shitheads who want millions to die and be ethnically cleansed. The only thing that would happen if we listen to idiots like JVP or Munayyer is an outcome 1000x worse than what's happened in Gaza already. You are putting into question the hypothesis of higher intelligence for Ashkenazi Jews with this ignorant post (yeah, I'm one ... Ivy educated and all of that). How in fucks-name is JVP pro-war?
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Apr 18, 2018 17:00
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I choose to interpret all this ranting about JVP to mean Jesus Vs. Predator, it's more entertaining this way.
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Apr 18, 2018 17:12
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VideoGameVet posted:How in fucks-name is JVP pro-war? That's part of his shtick. Keeping refugees out is paramount to Israeli nationalists, so if a refugee wants to return home, they are "pro-war" because nationalists cannot accept peace on those terms. Keeping refugees out doesn't square with his hollow liberal values tho, so you also get a bunch of cowardly mischaracterizations about Palestinians, or BDS, or JVP, or IfNotNow, or whoever else to make their nationalism look reasonable and pragmatic by contrast.
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Apr 18, 2018 17:25
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Nebalebadingdong posted:That's part of his shtick. Keeping refugees out is paramount to Israeli nationalists, so if a refugee wants to return home, they are "pro-war" because nationalists cannot accept peace on those terms. He's literally justifying ethnic cleansing.
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Apr 18, 2018 17:26
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mcmagic posted:He's literally justifying ethnic cleansing. I know. welcome to the I/P thread :/
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Apr 18, 2018 17:29
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Kim Jong Il posted:Who gives a poo poo what she does, gently caress JVP for supporting BDS, opposing the peace process, and repeatedly apologizing for anti-Semitism. They're pro-war shitheads who want millions to die and be ethnically cleansed. The only thing that would happen if we listen to idiots like JVP or Munayyer is an outcome 1000x worse than what's happened in Gaza already. Can you explain how this 1000x terrible outcome would come to pass? Like what series of events do you envision?
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Apr 18, 2018 17:31
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At this point, I'm curious as to why people still read/reply to KJI.
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Apr 18, 2018 17:32
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Internet Explorer posted:At this point, I'm curious as to why people still read/reply to KJI. Because the only people willing to bat for Israel at this point are deluded ultra-nationalists like him.
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Apr 18, 2018 17:39
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He's just a sounding board to help us figure out stuff in our minds. He's definitely as thick and inflexible as a piece of wood.
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Apr 18, 2018 17:40
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Internet Explorer posted:At this point, I'm curious as to why people still read/reply to KJI. Because his opinions are quite prevalent in moderate conservatives and moderate liberals in America.
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Apr 18, 2018 17:52
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mcmagic posted:I can't believe it didn't play a major factor... BDS is literally the only option right now for anyone who is even close to realistic about the situation in Israel and not a racist white supremacist. The Angola theory is quite compelling, though. Basically, the idea is that South Africa was fairly chill about the eventual endgame of apartheid because they assumed that they would be able to crush any rebellion militarily. The victory of FAPLA at Cuito Cuanavale thanks to Cuban backing and the increasing Cuban support of the ANC put the frightened s on them, and made them realise that a negotiated settlement was their only option.
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Apr 18, 2018 18:05
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Internet Explorer posted:At this point, I'm curious as to why people still read/reply to KJI. Sometimes you just wanna see how deep the rabbit hole of stupid goes.
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Apr 18, 2018 18:41
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