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Pollyanna posted:I wonder if those companies will ever run out of engineers to work on their products once the current guard starts retiring. I'm sure they'll plan ahead so they have time to address the issue before it becomes a probAHAHAHAHAHA
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Apr 17, 2018 15:29
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Pollyanna posted:I wonder if those companies will ever run out of engineers to work on their products once the current guard starts retiring. Star War Sex Parrot fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Apr 17, 2018 |
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Apr 17, 2018 15:30
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edit-- nevermind
Love Stole the Day fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Apr 17, 2018 16:04
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Love Stole the Day posted:8 yrs after getting my math degree in 2010, the most I've ever made is 17k and have only been employed for a total of 7 months. I knew how to do fizzbuzz 15 years ago. Graduated a year early, had a 3.25gpa, was president of two clubs, played for the soccer team, was on the putnam team, worked 2 part time student jobs, spoke a bunch of languages. More than 200 applications since I started tracking the data last year. No one cares. First my own background before I give a bunch of advice... I came back from the Peace Corps in 2015 thinking I'd be super competitive on top of my mechanical engineering experience. 6 months in to job searching and I had about two interviews one that was a terrible company and the other that told me to come back with more experience. I had been playing around with web dev for about 6 months at that point and saw that for every mechanical engineering job there were 50 dev jobs. So I decided to make the switch. I started applying and applying and got my first temp to hire contract after something like 600 applications. They only let me work 3 days a week so I continued at my temp job 2 days a week. Got laid off after 3 months due to lack of work. Put out another 200-300 applications over the next few months and got another contract position 4 months later. Was also not a good fit and being laid off loomed in the horizon so I put out another 100 applications and finally got a job. Then got laid off 6 months later. Just put out another 100 or so applications and I'm discussing an offer today. So that's my backstory. Here's some advice that I think could be helpful. - Set a schedule for yourself. For me, I refused to job search outside of 9am-5pm Monday to Friday. Go find a place that isn't your home to job search, if you can afford it a cafe with a $2 coffee is nice. Or a library and you can bring your own drink/food. Then go have fun. It's definitely doable on the cheap. I lived off of $12/hour for a year and a half in Boston and I found ways to have fun. - You need to remain positive. This is definitely hard as gently caress. I had an interview at my dream job and I didn't get past first round because I didn't "feel passionate enough". I was super depressed from my job search and it hosed everything up. I made it a point to get some pump up music or watch something happy downloaded to my phone before interviews. If only for the 30 minutes phone screen that you need to be positive. - Learn new skills. The first full time offer I got, I didn't know much React but I was working on a personal project because I realized I hated jQuery and didn't want to go near it anymore. I didn't have the experience but I had a GitHub repo full of projects that I'd used to acquire skills and that impressed employers. The specific employer brought me on and I spent the first month and a half really learning React. - Every interview you have, realize what you don't know and learn it after. I failed one interview because I didn't know some algorithm stuff so I made it a point to start learning it. Next interview, the interviewer, during the coding exercise, after completing it was curious if I knew Big O notation. Luckily I'd just finished covering the basics and was able to bullshit my way through answering some questions about the exercise we just completed and that's the place I just got an offer from. That's all I've got for now, if more comes to me, I'll let you know. I know it sucks, keep your head up! huhu fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Apr 17, 2018 |
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Apr 17, 2018 16:33
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Does anyone have any advice about applying to jobs from outside the US to move back? I know I struggled with response rate when I was moving states and I cant imagine its better for countries. As an aside, waiting for my interviewer for another company to call for our scheduled meeting. Not a fan of ones that are late.
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Apr 17, 2018 18:07
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Joda posted:I would love to know where there's a demand for C++ programmers. Games... embedded work. All sorts of stuff. That being said, very little is aimed at anything other than "10+ years exp"
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Apr 17, 2018 19:12
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Google uses a ton of C++
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Apr 17, 2018 19:16
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Guess my interview blew me off  I know it's for an entry level type position but it sure does make me feel bad that sometimes companies/people do this. If I hadn't had that great interview yesterday, I'd be way more down about it.
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Apr 17, 2018 19:32
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Shirec posted:Guess my interview blew me off If your interviewer blew you off, they are probably not very kind to their employees either; I know it's most likely better than where you are currently (because you currently work for Satan), but I'm sure you can find somewhere respectful to apply. Speaking of, my company may be hiring, lemme send you a PM. Slimy Hog fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Apr 17, 2018 |
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Apr 17, 2018 19:37
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Slimy Hog posted:If your interviewer blew you off, they are probably not very kind to their employees either; I know it's most likely better than where you are currently (because you currently work for Satan), but I'm sure you can find somewhere respectful to apply. Speaking of, my company _may_ be hiring, lemme send you a PM. Hey, I'm sure Satan is much nicer than Shirec's boss.
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Apr 17, 2018 19:44
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We should probably crowd source some advice for quitting a Toxic Job for Shirec and others. Some thoughts: Never tell anyone where you are going when you leave. They will ask, but they don't need to know. If you say it can get back to the toxic people who may try to sabotage it. Likewise, I wouldn't update Linked in on your new role for a few months. Less risk but also less drama. If there's an exit interview you can throw your boss under the bus. Nothing will probably change but it's cathartic. Even if things change it's already too late for you. Be prepared that when you give notice you may be let go. So if you have too much stuff at your desk to take in a single trip bring some stuff home first. Remember that you don't need to take anything anymore. If you're getting yelled at our feel attacked tell them to shut up. Or just get up and walk out. There's no power dynamic anymore. Shirec specific: Remember to report the HIPAA violation!
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Apr 17, 2018 20:12
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Love Stole the Day posted:8 yrs after getting my math degree in 2010, the most I've ever made is 17k and have only been employed for a total of 7 months. I knew how to do fizzbuzz 15 years ago. Graduated a year early, had a 3.25gpa, was president of two clubs, played for the soccer team, was on the putnam team, worked 2 part time student jobs, spoke a bunch of languages. More than 200 applications since I started tracking the data last year. No one cares. I'm not sure where you're applying to. You say Osaka, but trying to get a job back home. Do you mean the United States? Because that's a major hurdle right there. A lot of companies are willing to relocate you, or do a remote interview if you're far away, but theres a big difference between far away and another country. How are you handling this? When I was in Japan recently on business, I discovered that a lot of their coding practices are vastly different than what we do here on the USA. So if you're applying to jobs in Osaka, that might be another problem hurdle. I'm sorry to say but two hundred applications since last year is nowhere near enough. I put out five or six a day, aiming for 25 to 30 a week. I had 125 out my first month alone. I was applying to jobs I was clearly unqualified for in addition to the ones for junior roles, which turned out to be wise (my current job wanted a degree and experience, I had neither). What geeves said isn't wrong. Full disclosure, I came from a boot camp in addition to self teaching. Most people we've interviewed from boot camps don't know anything. Like...anything which i know is crazy because i went to one! We had a guy from a boot camp unable to explain the difference between a hash table and an array. He just closed his laptop and walked the gently caress out when we asked him about lists. It was surreal, but aside from leaving halfway through an interview most of the others aren't far off. You have to be better than what they teach you. You have to keep learning, keep teaching yourself, and don't let them convince you that a boot camp will teach you enough and you're being given an easy ride to a new job when you graduate. You have to be better than they say you do. Which brings me to my last thing. When was the last time you built something? You mention you've been at this job hunt for years now, but doing what exactly? What language or discipline are you aiming for, and what have you been doing to stay sharp in it if your search is taking so long? You may very well be suffering from skill atrophy by this point and you gotta make sure you fight that tooth and nail. Believe me, I get that your situation turbo sucks. But you have to keep trying, and honestly you'll have to try harder. Apply to more jobs, build something cool and show it off. Everything about your situation says that you have to try harder than everyone else does just to break even. Another country, a big gap in with history, no CS degree, etc etc, EVERYTHING is stacked against you. I know that isn't fair, but you have to overcome it regardless. I genuinely do want to help so if you have more questions about what to do, or if something I said is totally off base, feel free to speak up.
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Apr 17, 2018 20:22
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Vincent Valentine posted:We had a guy from a boot camp unable to explain the difference between a hash table and an array. He just closed his laptop and walked the gently caress out when we asked him about lists. Hahaha what the gently caress. Id love to hear about how coding practices differs between Japan and the US.
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Apr 17, 2018 20:46
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Pollyanna posted:Id love to hear about how coding practices differs between Japan and the US. Same.
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Apr 17, 2018 21:20
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Shirec posted:Guess my interview blew me off I've always felt slighted when this happens. Thing to keep in mind though, and it took me a while to realize, they are everything to you but you're only a first interview to them. This has never been more true than when I'm super nervous before a phone screen and they're two minutes late and I'm wondering where the gently caress they were. They were probably in a meeting or something else that ran a few minutes over. I'd say give them a second chance though. I find that second chance is the sweet spot. If they do something dumb again then peace out. But it might have just been a one time thing. Being patient is super helpful. Furthermore, one time I wanted to network with a super important guy. He had to reschedule twice on me. The second time he wanted to reschedule I was like eh whatever and told him "I was busy the next week, perhaps we could meet another time". He said he'd follow up the week after, and did, and we're meeting for coffee on Thursday. So you never know. Definitely a case by case basis.
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Apr 17, 2018 21:47
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Shirec posted:Guess my interview blew me off Did they tell you to expect an interview at X time and then didn't call, or did they tell you that the interview was cancelled? If the former, well, mistakes can happen. You can email them and say that you were expecting a call but nobody called, and ask if they want to reschedule.
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Apr 17, 2018 21:52
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huhu posted:I've always felt slighted when this happens. Thing to keep in mind though, and it took me a while to realize, they are everything to you but you're only a first interview to them. This has never been more true than when I'm super nervous before a phone screen and they're two minutes late and I'm wondering where the gently caress they were. They were probably in a meeting or something else that ran a few minutes over. I'd say give them a second chance though. I find that second chance is the sweet spot. If they do something dumb again then peace out. But it might have just been a one time thing. Being patient is super helpful. Furthermore, one time I wanted to network with a super important guy. He had to reschedule twice on me. The second time he wanted to reschedule I was like eh whatever and told him "I was busy the next week, perhaps we could meet another time". He said he'd follow up the week after, and did, and we're meeting for coffee on Thursday. So you never know. Definitely a case by case basis. I have def had that happen, had one interviewer that did a no-show but called me the next day to say he had been in a car accident and had been so frazzled that he totally forgot. I forgave that because, obviously, that's fine, and life happens. I try to be as understanding as possible (although I probably lean too far into forgiveness territory than valuing my own time) fantastic in plastic posted:Did they tell you to expect an interview at X time and then didn't call, or did they tell you that the interview was cancelled? If the former, well, mistakes can happen. You can email them and say that you were expecting a call but nobody called, and ask if they want to reschedule. This one was I expected the call at 1 pm EST (so 12 my time) as scheduled and they never called. I did email to circle back, and about an hour later they emailed me twice. First was an auto generated appointment for an interview. Second was from the actual recruiter, apologizing, re-scheduling for this Friday, and saying the team still wants to talk with me. I am not impressed, for sure, but I can't afford to burn bridges, so I'm going to still go for it. Hughlander posted:Remember that you don't need to take anything anymore. If you're getting yelled at our feel attacked tell them to shut up. Or just get up and walk out. There's no power dynamic anymore. Oh my god, I just thought of doing that, and felt kind of like throwing up but also super happy because it would mean I was free
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Apr 17, 2018 22:03
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Agreeing with the last two posters, I think it's a little to hasty to say that if they stood you up then they likely are poo poo to their employees as well. All of our hiring is done by our engineers with HR just making sure we don't asking questions like "so what do you think about churches and disabilities and churches with disabilities?" None of us signed up to do the occasional interview/hiring process duty, but I guess its better than HR doing it all for us. That being said the hiring process is not generally priority #1 when its going on so yeah don't be surprised if the call is a few minutes late. If I go poop one minute before Outlook can remind me that I need to make a call in 15 minutes, I might be 5 minutes late. Do the math.
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Apr 17, 2018 22:09
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Yeah don't get ruffled if you get forgotten or rescheduled on, hiring is usually not a huge priority for companies even if it means everything to you. Keep an understanding attitude and don't be afraid to remind them. The hiring process isn't really an accurate reflection of the work environment you'd be working in anyway.
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Apr 17, 2018 22:19
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Just gotta add that we're not ( at least I'm not) trying to all jump on you. This job search stuff sucks but I hope by posting here I can help others avoid the same dumb crap I did in my search. On another note, my current job hunt is over! Just got a super generous offer and combining that with my severance and delayed start date, I'm going to Europe!
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Apr 17, 2018 22:20
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Portland Sucks posted:Agreeing with the last two posters, I think it's a little to hasty to say that if they stood you up then they likely are poo poo to their employees as well. I was under the impression that they just didn't call or respond to emails; also, I was trying to make her feel better, "well, they were no good for you anyway" kinda thing.
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Apr 17, 2018 23:04
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Slimy Hog posted:I was under the impression that they just didn't call or respond to emails; also, I was trying to make her feel better, "well, they were no good for you anyway" kinda thing. Oh I def would have been in that camp if they had just vanished into thin air though! They hadn't when I originally posted, so that's my bad. I probably jumped the gun cause I posted about 1.5 hours after they were supposed to call. Then I emailed them, expecting nada. And your words did help, thank you  huhu posted:Just gotta add that we're not ( at least I'm not) trying to all jump on you. This job search stuff sucks but I hope by posting here I can help others avoid the same dumb crap I did in my search. I appreciate it! And honestly, I don't feel jumped very often here. Y'all have been generally very understanding of my situation.
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Apr 17, 2018 23:08
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One place rescheduled on me three times. I ended up working there for three years and had a great experience, they were just genuinely really busy at the time.
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Apr 17, 2018 23:11
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Pollyanna posted:Hahaha what the gently caress. Specifically, we asked him if given a list of data, how would he store it. We didn't really care what the answer was, but after the hash table/array fiasco we just wanted any answer we could work with. For example, a great response would have been "When you say a list of data, do you mean a List as in the data structure list, or a list as in just a group of entries that came back from a database or something?". A lot of people have described "list" as exactly the latter(typically an array full of objects), but they mean it in the human colloquialism sense and not the computer science list. Asking for clarity there would have been a good response. "I, uh, think we're done here" and just closing your laptop and leaving the interview was an example of the opposite of a good response. As for Japan versus United States, I don't want to say too much about what software we gave them in particular because Corporate Reasons, but I can talk more generally. Also, I should heavily emphasize here that despite the company I visited with being one of the top 5 biggest corporations in Japan, I don't know a drat thing about how other corporations there are run. I did a lot of questioning/research afterward because frankly the difference is fascinating, but I didn't just go to all the different tech companies there and ask to see their stack. The very first thing I asked about at our first meeting was about the UI. I asked who was responsible for the UI on their team and they just stared at me blankly. "Well, him, I guess." and they pointed to the devops architect. This was the very first thing we spoke about in person and already it was weird. Essentially, Japan does not seem to put much stock in UI. They are very heavily skewed in favor of Function over Form, to the point where form may as well not exist. The devops architect, while an utterly brilliant man, just didn't care about UI. As long as it displays it, however it is displayed, is good enough. He was also the only person their team who knew what JavaScript was. A front-end web developer is, as far as I can tell, a job that doesn't exist in Japan. You can actually observe this phenomenon yourself by looking at the american version of a website, then the japanese version. For example: https://www.yahoo.com/ Well designed, good colors, nice layout. It isn't cramped, it responds well when device size changes. https://www.yahoo.co.jp/ Looks like it was made in 1997 and not changed since. It displays something, and frankly that's more than enough to them.. Yahoo Japan is SIGNIFICANTLY bigger than Yahoo USA. It's bigger than Google by quite a large margin, it's an utter behemoth. The difference in the websites though, demonstrates that even though the two companies are under the same umbrella, they're run very differently. The exchange of ideas is non-existent, which I'll get to later. We went over how our Java back-end works, demonstrated an easy change to just visualize the build/deploy process, and we may as well have just shown them literal magic. The idea of an automated build and deploy process was not something they were familiar with. According to them, it's someones dedicated job at their company to manually SSH into the server, copy over relevant files, and run build scripts by hand. Completely floored me. The idea of continuous integration testing was completely foreign. They mentioned that each person works off of the Master branch, and then once a week they get together and merge everyone's code into the master branch together and resolve conflicts there, but I can't believe that even though that's exactly what they told me. I am including it here largely for posterity, because I do actually believe that I either misunderstood them or the language barrier was too strong for this part. There's a lot more to it than this, but frankly I'm probably not the person to be going into the differences. I would love to hear from a Japanese engineer moving to the US talking about the differences, or USA to Japan, in some form where it was more than a business trip. It genuinely is incredibly interesting. From my limited time and perspective talking to people, I believe it's actually to do with company culture. People in Japan have extreme loyalty to their company, so they never quit or look for better offers. When people never leave, ideas and methods don't travel. What you end up doing at a company is just what they've always done. From what they tell me, Free Time is also extremely limited there, so you don't have much time to research new ideas out of work. I don't want to disparage Japanese engineers at all. One look at their robotics sector tells you they're incredibly good at what they do. It's just a completely different world compared to how its done here.
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Apr 17, 2018 23:18
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Vincent Valentine posted:They mentioned that each person works off of the Master branch, and then once a week they get together and merge everyone's code into the master branch together and resolve conflicts there, but I can't believe that even though that's exactly what they told me. I am including it here largely for posterity, because I do actually believe that I either misunderstood them or the language barrier was too strong for this part. That could just as easily be a non branching work-flow. I was at a place in the mid 2000s that did that. I *think* it was 6 weeks of engineers working on their own, then 2 weeks of committing and merging and stabilizing. (It may have been 3 and 1 but it was basically that.) Yes it was insane.
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Apr 18, 2018 02:04
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JehovahsWetness posted:Not really commenting on geeves post... I'm coming around to the idea that these big companies do want the type-A gunslingers, because the smart ones will be exponentially above the rest. There's a qualitative difference in budgeting/funding the next game changer - paying some students 200k is pocket change if you can really hit it big (or at least this is one mental model to use). Hiring for a known engineering task can be done much cheaper (see Upwork).
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Apr 18, 2018 04:52
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Vincent Valentine posted:They mentioned that each person works off of the Master branch, and then once a week they get together and merge everyone's code into the master branch together and resolve conflicts there, but I can't believe that even though that's exactly what they told me. I am including it here largely for posterity, because I do actually believe that I either misunderstood them or the language barrier was too strong for this part. Maaaaybe you misunderstood, sure that's a possibility. But this is definitely a thing that happens, albeit very rarely these days. Thank gently caress. Shirec I'm following your story with the utmost of interest, I'm really rooting for you here. Hoping the good news continues for you and you make your escape soon.
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Apr 18, 2018 08:55
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a hot gujju bhabhi posted:Maaaaybe you misunderstood, sure that's a possibility. But this is definitely a thing that happens, albeit very rarely these days. Thank gently caress. I've heard of people in SVN shops doing something like that when they try to merge branches. Joel Spolsky called it SVN Horror Story #1 on http://hginit.com .
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Apr 18, 2018 18:24
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Anyone have experience joining a company that's working on a project that's already really well established and in production? I've been looking at the Github for the project I will be working on when I start (it's OSS), and......boy it looks overwhelming
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Apr 18, 2018 20:19
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They usually have onboarding procedures to teach you what you need to know.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:34
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Grump posted:Anyone have experience joining a company that's working on a project that's already really well established and in production? I always thought a vast majority of jobs are maintenance / upkeep of existing things, as opposed to 'git init'
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Apr 18, 2018 20:36
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Grump posted:Anyone have experience joining a company that's working on a project that's already really well established and in production? To echo everyone else, this is pretty standard. In my experience it was overwhelming, but I eventually got comfortable with the code base. One of the skills you will learn as an engineer is jumping into an unfamiliar codebase!
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Apr 18, 2018 20:46
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fantastic in plastic posted:They usually have onboarding procedures to teach you what you need to know.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:52
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My place (we're talking a million lines of code at least,) had me doing QA for a month and a half because the person supposed to train me (also the CTO,) didn't have the time. Then I started working in dev, CTO still didn't have time so it ended up being a sort of trial by fire of learning by doing, making lots of mistakes, asking whoever was available when I hit a snag and generally just coding blind until I got a reasonable impression of the project.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:27
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Anyone have a name/link to that extension for chrome/firefox that grabs emails from linkedin profiles? Google search returns a bunch of sketchy clickbait sites.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:28
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Grump posted:Anyone have experience joining a company that's working on a project that's already really well established and in production? Most jobs are like that. It's always overwhelming. But it hones your instincts on what makes code "maintainable."
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Apr 18, 2018 22:31
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Grump posted:Anyone have experience joining a company that's working on a project that's already really well established and in production? Just one more voice agreeing that this situation represents most jobs you'll come across. It always feels overwhelming at first but the company hiring you generally understands what they're asking of you and in my experience is happy for you to take some time to learn before you become maximally productive.
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Apr 19, 2018 01:27
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lifg posted:Most jobs are like that. It's always overwhelming. But it hones your instincts on what makes code "maintainable." Truer words never spoken. One of the most valuable experiences is taking over others code bases and collaboration for learning what makes for bad maintainability, and showing me where my bad habits are that lead to the same. I've found that many devs keep everything close to the chest, which is just an incredibly obvious tell for a lovely programmer. Either scared of criticism or trying to create job security thru obtuse dev and obscurity.
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Apr 19, 2018 03:17
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Grump posted:Anyone have experience joining a company that's working on a project that's already really well established and in production? As a newbie with only 6 months of professional experience (on top of about 1 year of learning to code, so 1.5 years total), they threw me right into multiple codebases, one that's over 10 years old. They provide data services/content/etc. for a very large financial company, one of our tools gets about 1 million unique views a month, so it definitely felt like a lot of pressure upfront. Despite this, I was able to make some decent contributions within my first month fixing bugs and other issues. Despite the fact that a codebase is very large, unless you're dealing with some completely arcane monstrosity, it's usually straightforward to pinpoint where you need to be looking and ignore about 99% of the other code. After doing a few dozen stories targeting specifics of the codebase, things start to come together pretty quickly and you see how things are organized. It's even easier if the code is built on top of a framework and the people building/maintaining the code follow the general guidelines. It also helps that I have a great and understanding team and they generally weren't expecting me to be contributing as much as I was within the first few months. For example, if you're thrown into an ASP.NET MVC codebase and they ask you to fix a bug on one page, it's pretty easy to find the related Razor view, then follow that to the Model and Controller, and from there you should get a ton of information about how the data flow of the program and where to look for your bug, if you haven't already found it by then.
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Apr 19, 2018 03:18
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The Dark Wind posted:As a newbie with only 6 months of professional experience (on top of about 1 year of learning to code, so 1.5 years total), they threw me right into multiple codebases, one that's over 10 years old. They provide data services/content/etc. for a very large financial company, one of our tools gets about 1 million unique views a month, so it definitely felt like a lot of pressure upfront. Despite this, I was able to make some decent contributions within my first month fixing bugs and other issues. Despite the fact that a codebase is very large, unless you're dealing with some completely arcane monstrosity, it's usually straightforward to pinpoint where you need to be looking and ignore about 99% of the other code. After doing a few dozen stories targeting specifics of the codebase, things start to come together pretty quickly and you see how things are organized. It's even easier if the code is built on top of a framework and the people building/maintaining the code follow the general guidelines. It also helps that I have a great and understanding team and they generally weren't expecting me to be contributing as much as I was within the first few months. You've hit on another important point - if the company is creating their cases/tasks well, then a large codebase shouldn't be too much of a problem because the case will describe where you need to do your work. Also, plenty of large codebases are actually comprised of multiple smaller and pretty distinct codebases, meaning at any given time you should only be needing to work within a fairly manageable sized project. That said, sometimes a large codebase is genuinely a large codebase with undocumented, unmanaged dependencies, no attempt to separate responsibilities or create domain boundaries or anything of the sort. If you come across this, flee.
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Apr 19, 2018 03:37
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