|
HawkHill posted:Fletcher Class Destroyer FDR would have been on the battleship if it sank, which is clear evidence of their inherent risks. Grand Prize Winner posted:Ask us about military history: Well, it does put things into perspective. Nowadays it's near-impossible to poop and poo poo yourself to death, but imagine a 19th century naval invasion of Iraq.
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 05:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 02:14 |
|
|
Nebakenezzer posted:I'm'a gonna start an argument with Jobbo_Fett and maybe Bewbies Sure. Anything to stop them from using gliders and outdated planes (BUT THEY BETTER KEEP ME-323s OR SO HELP ME GOD I WILL MURDERKILL YOU INTO THE GROUND!)
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 05:47
|
|
|
I figure it's more of a general history question rather than a military one and I'm like 90% sure this topic has been broached before though I don't recall where let alone when, but what if anything was the general thread consensus on the "HRE being neither holy, roman, or empire" observation? I think it was originally by Voltaire but being French I also imagine there might have been some bias at play
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 07:16
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:You could write a dark Blackadder comedy on that whole farce. It's very Young Doctor's Notebook.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 07:51
|
|
|
Milo and POTUS posted:I figure it's more of a general history question rather than a military one and I'm like 90% sure this topic has been broached before though I don't recall where let alone when, but what if anything was the general thread consensus on the "HRE being neither holy, roman, or empire" observation? I think it was originally by Voltaire but being French I also imagine there might have been some bias at play I mean, it's going to depend when you're talking about. Earlier on HRE emperors were crowned by the pope in Rome, then something something investiture controversy something something Guelphs and Ghibellines. Hey Gal probably has words re: the 17th century incarnation, but bear in mind it was around for a good thousand years or so.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 10:06
|
|
|
I am going to find the source for that absurd story about the Royal Navy polishing watertight doors until they were useless and beat them with an oar, unless they're dead, in which case I shall dig them up and then beat their moldering remains with an oar. That story is seriously so idiotic I can't believe anyone with a passing knowledge of ships would believe it for a second. I don't know about the rest of the thread but I've had to fiddle with watertight doors, though I've never had to take on off its hinges because you don't do that on museum ships. They weigh, at least, hundreds of pounds and are attached to the hatchways with giant steel nuts and bolts. Taking one down just to polish it would be an all-day job for a sizable number of men who'd be much more gainfully employed cleaning everything else around the drat door. Not to mention the amount of polishing to make a watertight door no longer watertight would have to be immense, because again they're made of hundreds of pounds of structural steel. There's lots of stories about spit-and-polish run amok in the Victorian Royal Navy that I can believe. I can believe that captains hated gunnery practice because the cordite smoke and soot dirtied the decks. I can believe stories of Admirals going around their ships and checking for dust and dirt behind every nook and cranny. I can even believe the story (which was widely disbelieved even at the time) that some ships just dumped ammunition over the side during gunnery practices instead of actually firing it. But I cannot believe they would regularly polish door watertight doors to uselessness. It's ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 10:58
|
|
|
Its especially weird because it usually comes up in relation to the HMS Victoria accident, when Victoria was hit below the waterline by a battleship ram without her watertight doors being closed due it being a peacetime exercise. The doors being over polished were not exactly the problem there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 11:17
|
|
|
I actually looked it up in Massey's Dreadnought hoping to find the source. Naturally he only gave sources for direct quotations so no luck there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 11:33
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:I am going to find the source for that absurd story about the Royal Navy polishing watertight doors until they were useless and beat them with an oar, unless they're dead, in which case I shall dig them up and then beat their moldering remains with an oar. I'm guessing it's the same as those army stories about being forced to polish coal in the scuttle.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 12:46
|
|
|
I have no idea how true this one is, but it's what I've been told by a cheery old doctor (now late): It's WW2, the Yugoslav army/Partizans and the Soviet army are having a joint operation to push the Nazis out of Serbia. He was a Partizan medic (was a medical student when the war started) and somehow ended up attached to a Russian tank unit, and was to be inside one of the tanks during the advance. They lodged together in a village that was recently liberated, and the night before the advance, the old lady who lived in the house he stayed at took all the stuff she had secretly stashed away from the Nazis and baked him and a few Russian soldiers who were also staying there a cake. The Russian soldiers politely refused to eat. He, well, he had nothing but army rations: guerrilla war edition for at least 3 years by that point and his stomach overrode his brain on silly questions like "What's the quality of, say, eggs, that were secretly stashed for it seems quite a while?" and "Considering what I've been eating for years, how will my stomach react to this?". While he was single-handedly devouring that entire cake, all but one of the Russian soldiers were giggling and the other guy was sitting quietly with a "gently caress my life" expression on his face. They were saying something, but while doc knew enough Russian to do his job there, they were talking really fast, and he was eating really fast, so he just sort of ignored it. Come tomorrow, he's crammed into a Russian tank, and the commander is the "gently caress my life" guy. Shortly after the advance started, his stomach started hurting and rumbling really loud. And unlike the tanks Ensign Expendable mentioned, this one had no poop hole. He skipped the details of how what happened next happened, but basically, he ended up hanging off the top of the tank, his bare rear end exploding diarrhea out all over the place in bursts every couple of seconds, and and a bunch of Soviet tankmen getting to watch it, the crews sometimes even switching places so that another guy could see the spectacle. And that is how the Yugoslavs invented treadshitting. e: whoops my dad fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Apr 18, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 13:41
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:I am going to find the source for that absurd story about the Royal Navy polishing watertight doors until they were useless and beat them with an oar, unless they're dead, in which case I shall dig them up and then beat their moldering remains with an oar. It's always struck me as implausible to the point of impossibility too. My guess is that it's either an extrapolation through various secondary accounts of some rating being given 'No.9 punishment' to spend two hours extra work per day for a week polishing the guide rails of a watertight door (or something simiarly grubby, difficult and pointless), or it's just been created from thin air as an over-egged 'Royal Navy 1805-1914 LOL!' anecdote. And I don't see why you'd bother doing that because there are plenty of verified anecdotes along similar lines.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 14:14
|
|
|
my dad posted:treadshitting.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 14:14
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:I am going to find the source for that absurd story about the Royal Navy polishing watertight doors until they were useless and beat them with an oar, unless they're dead, in which case I shall dig them up and then beat their moldering remains with an oar. You could beat the rear end in a top hat(s) whose ultimate decision it was to scrap the Enterprise
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 14:16
|
|
|
feedmegin posted:I mean, it's going to depend when you're talking about. Earlier on HRE emperors were crowned by the pope in Rome, then something something investiture controversy something something Guelphs and Ghibellines. Even in the undergrad-est of CC history courses, it was never something I heard a history professor say so I'm just kinda wondering where it got its legs. I was also figuring that it was a long period of time so even if it might have applied at one certain points it likely didn't at others and all that. I'm just curious because you will see people cite it as a trump card all the loving time and it often shuts up any further discussion.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 14:28
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:I am going to find the source for that absurd story about the Royal Navy polishing watertight doors until they were useless and beat them with an oar, unless they're dead, in which case I shall dig them up and then beat their moldering remains with an oar. i for one am responsible for passing on this anecdote on several different occasions and I look forward your oar attack
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 14:41
|
|
|
Milo and POTUS posted:Even in the undergrad-est of CC history courses, it was never something I heard a history professor say so I'm just kinda wondering where it got its legs. I was also figuring that it was a long period of time so even if it might have applied at one certain points it likely didn't at others and all that. I'm just curious because you will see people cite it as a trump card all the loving time and it often shuts up any further discussion. I suspect some people pick it up in literature class rather than history, since Camus is a pretty standard topic. That usually includes a unit about Voltaire's life, and it's a good line for getting a laugh out of bored students as well as a good capsule example of Voltaire's style and politics. It's also much more accurate in Voltaire's day. By the time he was writing, the HRE was no longer united by Catholicism as its common religion, and certainly wasn't an empire by any normal standard, instead being a sort of confederation of mutual defense and system for settling disputes - almost a cross between NATO and the UN. One which occasionally didn't function in any meaningful way at all. It also had lost its direct connection to Rome - Italy hadn't been part of it for centuries, the Pope no longer crowned the Emperor, and the line of rulers who could trace back to Charlemagne directly either by blood relation or clear political succession had been broken. So if you're talking about the HRE circa the mid 18th century, it's not an unreasonable critique, if a bit biased coming as it does from a Frenchman. Anyone using it for the HRE in Charlemagne's day or other periods doesn't know what they're talking about, though, and is just saying it because it sounds clever. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Apr 18, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 14:49
|
|
|
when you talk about any entity that exists for a thousand years it's going to be really hard to make any definitive statement about the character, mechanics, etc of the entity over the thousand year period cf when people talk about "Rome" (or even just the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic) or "The Catholic Church" or "China" (5000 year dont u kno) or "Feudal Japan" or or or or
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 15:02
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:That story is seriously so idiotic I can't believe anyone with a passing knowledge of ships would believe it for a second. I don't know about the rest of the thread but I've had to fiddle with watertight doors, though I've never had to take on off its hinges because you don't do that on museum ships. So what do you think of the state of preservation on the Bowfin?
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 15:13
|
|
|
The quote did also get picked up primarily by leftist critique for the early HRE, largely out of an ideological opposition to labeling any hegemonic power "holy." Which is probably a fair cop, but misunderstands what the label was about in some ways. Calling it "Holy" was much more about putting the Official Pope Seal of Approval and Guaranteed Freshness on the endeavor than implying it was "good" in a moral or ethical sense. And it solidified both the Pope and Charlemagne's claims to of authority independent of and not answerable to Constantinople. This basic issue is that the Emperor in Constantinople claimed authority over the Western Empire by combined temporal and spiritual authority, which reinforced each other. The bishops in the west should submit because he was head of the church, and the kings should submit because he was the legal heir to Roman political authority. The kings and their subjects should also submit because a good Christian should not willingly be ruled by someone of suspect faith, and the bishops and faithful should submit because it was a Christianly thing to recognize a legitimate temporal regime. Slapping "Holy" onto Charlemagne's nascent state at least partially defanged those arguments. The Emperor in Constantinople was no longer the only acceptably and authentically Christian political power, so it eased the concerns of Charlemagne's subjects that they were violating religious precepts by submitting to his authority. Calling it "Roman" also helped that argument for the Pope. It was also reasonably accurate - Charlemagne was the de facto heir to Roman political power, and adopted what Roman legal practices and apparatus that still existed. It had also in some ways become a genericized term meaning "powerful, legitimate, organized state" rather than implying geographic or ethnic identity - see the Sultans of Rûm for another example. Saying it wasn't Roman might be technically correct in some ways, but largely just misses the point. In any case, making it "Holy" and "Roman" allowed the Pope to boil down his fight to the question of the Emperor's spiritual authority, and thus a question of doctrine, alone. As long as the HRE was a lawful, authentically Christian power, in theory it was just as correct to submit to it in temporal matters as to submit to Constantinople. The Emperor in Constantinople had a de jure claim to political and legal control, but possession matters, and Constantinople was not really in a position to dispute that possession. All that was left was whether the Pope was religiously required to adhere to Constantinople's direction, and that would be fought out in councils and letters over the next two centuries (and beyond). As for the "not an Empire" part, you can do some thin-slicing about the difference between Frankish kingship and the Roman dominus, but it's pedantry engaged in just so the whole quote can kind of hang together. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Apr 18, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 15:59
|
|
|
13th KRRC War Diary, 17th Apr 1918 posted:"Rouse" was at 8 a.m., breakfast being at 8-30. At 10-30 the Btn. "fell in" in column of route and marched off companies at 100 yards distance. 13th KRRC War Diary, 18th Apr 1918 posted:The day was at the disposal of the Coy. Commanders and Lewis Gun Classes were started, men being taught the practical working of the gun only. They were taken on a range near by and fired at targets. Various inspections were carried out and Signalling Classes were started.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 16:20
|
|
|
Comrade Gorbash posted:The quote did also get picked up primarily by leftist critique for the early HRE, largely out of an ideological opposition to labeling any hegemonic power "holy." Which is probably a fair cop, but misunderstands what the label was about in some ways. This is all true re: Charlemagne but I usually see it applied by people struggling to summarize the Central European HRE you see a few centuries afterwards. A state claiming the legacy of Rome that is mostly made up of territory far outside Rome’s furthest extent is a bit problematic as is the decentralized nature of its power structure at precisely the moment England and France are consolidating royal authority in a profound way. I’ve unpacked the quote for students before to help understand the difference between eg the 12th century French monarchy and what’s going on across the boarder. They’re two fundamentally different ideas/models on how to organize a state and it’s a useful corrective to a lot of textbooks that just color everything between “From the Maas to the Memel, from the Etsch to the Belt” one color and kind of imply it’s a centralized (or perhaps more aptly centralizing) state like France, England etc.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 16:58
|
|
|
I may perhaps also be a bit sensitive to it because of how the first Reich gets utilized by some other people I’ve studied to imply a centralizing German state and national project that projected far further I to the past than is really evident.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:00
|
|
|
Cessna posted:So what do you think of the state of preservation on the Bowfin? No clue, I haven't been to Hawaii in three decades.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:03
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:I may perhaps also be a bit sensitive to it because of how the first Reich gets utilized by some other people I’ve studied to imply a centralizing German state and national project that projected far further I to the past than is really evident.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:08
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/PacificAviation/status/986427744664858624
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:11
|
|
|
The HRE did turn up recently in gaming in one amusing way. Hearts of Iron 4 is mainly a WW2 simulator, but you're under no obligation to play historically. The new expansion is primarily focused on China, but also gives some alt-history options to Germany and Japan to go off the rails. Potentially really, really off the rails. Through an extremely convoluted series of events and decisions, you can not only end up with this lady leading 20th century Germany, she can remake the German Empire into the Holy Roman Empire.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:12
|
|
|
Comrade Gorbash posted:So if you're talking about the HRE circa the mid 18th century, it's not an unreasonable critique, if a bit biased coming as it does from a Frenchman.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:14
|
|
|
bewbies posted:i for one am responsible for passing on this anecdote on several different occasions and I look forward your oar attack I think some guy said that to Miyamoto Musashi once. Speaking of sword fighting, I saw this video and it made me wonder, under what circumstances would two 14th century dudes face off in a sword fight like this? Formal duels only? Did guys break off into single combat on the battlefield? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyVu0z4aGFc
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:15
|
|
|
How DO you define an empire, anyways?
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:15
|
|
|
Well, you start with an emperor . . .
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:22
|
|
|
I think most definitions center around the idea of multiple ethnic groups being ruled at once, but for the most part, there's not really a definitive taxonomy of states. Things get called what they get called.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:26
|
|
|
Dunno if this belongs here, but I ran into a company of pikes on Sunday, and if any Seattle-area goons are interested, they're having a demo/practice on 6 May. I'm considering joining up, partly because I could use the exercise, and partly because, if programming falls through, we can go plunder Tacoma.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:27
|
|
|
darthbob88 posted:Dunno if this belongs here, but I ran into a company of pikes on Sunday, and if any Seattle-area goons are interested, they're having a demo/practice on 6 May. I'm considering joining up, partly because I could use the exercise, and partly because, if programming falls through, we can go plunder Tacoma. If you are in a plundering way, discreetly inquire to the Canadian government if you can get a letter of marque for plundering Vancouver
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:30
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:The HRE did turn up recently in gaming in one amusing way. Hearts of Iron 4 is mainly a WW2 simulator, but you're under no obligation to play historically. The new expansion is primarily focused on China, but also gives some alt-history options to Germany and Japan to go off the rails. Potentially really, really off the rails. Through an extremely convoluted series of events and decisions, you can not only end up with this lady leading 20th century Germany, she can remake the German Empire into the Holy Roman Empire. What’s the chain of events for that? I’ve been playing the gently caress out of revanchist imperial Germany and have managed a grossdeutschland where I absorb a reformed AUstro Hungary but never seen that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:32
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:What’s the chain of events for that? I’ve been playing the gently caress out of revanchist imperial Germany and have managed a grossdeutschland where I absorb a reformed AUstro Hungary but never seen that. 1. The Hindenburg must survive. 2. Oppose Hitler. 3. Win the civil war. 4. Revive the empire. 5. Return the Kaiser. 6. The Netherlands must block the Kaiser's return. 7. Don't contest it, go with Wilhelm III instead. 8. Go for Alliance in the Shade (alliance with UK). 9. Take the decisions Reinstate Prince Wilhelm's Right of Succession, Modernize the Succession Laws, and Request Restoration of British Titles. 10. The Brits will ask you to send an advisor ahead to London. Do so. This is Victoria. 11. Send the imperial family to London for the ceremony. 12. The Hindenburg will crash, killing the entire royal family except Victoria Louise, who becomes Kaiserin. 13. Kaiserin Victoria I can then reform the German Empire into the Holy Roman Empire.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:45
|
|
|
lol that's awesome. Looks like I now have something to aim for in my next play through. Hindenburg's the one real stumbling block. Edit: well, the netherlands too. I think I've only seen that cook off once. It never ceases to amaze me the random poo poo those spergs at paradox hide in their games.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:50
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:lol that's awesome. Looks like I now have something to aim for in my next play through. Hindenburg's the one real stumbling block. Edit: well, the netherlands too. I think I've only seen that cook off once. From what I've read, you can easily get the Dutch to be dicks by deleting most/all of your armies. Paradox mentioned it in one of their dev diaries as a little easter egg for International Womens' Day.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:52
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:No clue, I haven't been to Hawaii in three decades. I was a curator on Pampanito back in the 90's, right after I got out of the USMC. We took pride in maintaining as much of our stuff in working condition as possible, at one point having three of the four diesels in running condition. The rationale was that actual maintenance kept artifacts in better shape than letting them sit. You'll find leaks, keep parts lubricated and oiled, etc. Bowfin, in contrast, was preserved like the (undeserved stereotype of the) Victorian navy. Everything was polished until it gleamed. It looked pretty, but decades of polished neglect was bad for the boat. For example, 50+ years (at the time) of brass polishing had obliterated the stamped in numbers on dials and gauges, while behind the polished brass you'd find layers of rust. It was sad, like an exquisitely embalmed corpse.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:53
|
|
|
Looks like she blew up the wrong plane for once.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 02:14 |
|
|
Cessna posted:I was a curator on Pampanito back in the 90's, right after I got out of the USMC. We took pride in maintaining as much of our stuff in working condition as possible, at one point having three of the four diesels in running condition. The rationale was that actual maintenance kept artifacts in better shape than letting them sit. You'll find leaks, keep parts lubricated and oiled, etc. Yeah, that's the way to do it. poo poo that's kept in working shape or at least used periodically doesn't disintigrate anything like as quickly. You see it with guns all the time. The rifle that Grandpa used to hunt with twice a year might have some finish wear on it and show tons of scuffs and handling marks, but the one that was left in the attic is usually a rustball. The best example is comparing the Hagia Sofia to pretty much anything from the late roman empire. The Hagia Sofia was built in the 530s, not that long after the fall of Rome in the west. The major difference between it and buildings like the Coloseum isn't a few hundred years of age, it's that it was in constant use and occupied pretty much continuously since then, while the poo poo Rome put up was abandoned and not maintained.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 17:59
|
|