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Narcissus1916 posted:People who know things: Do most modern shooters also use hitscan and if so, how? Duke seems to make it that if an enemy has ANY line of sight on me I'm gonna lose health. Whereas CoD and Halo etc. seem to be making it a bit more dynamic and less predictable. Modern games do still use hitscan but they've gotten better about disguising it with visual effects and making the AI deliberately imperfect so it feels like you're still in danger even though they're actually missing a lot. Halo specifically uses hitscan for the human bullet weapons and not-hitscan for the alien sci-fi laser guns. CoD I'm pretty sure is also using hitscan, maybe with more advanced bullet modeling so their trajectory is not always a perfectly straight line (I know super hardcore military sims do that but CoD is probably near the bottom of that scale). Marathon, on the other hand, does not use hitscan for anything; there's a noticeable time-of-flight on bullets in larger rooms and you always have to lead targets.
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Apr 18, 2018 06:44
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Narcissus1916 posted:People who know things: Do most modern shooters also use hitscan and if so, how? Duke seems to make it that if an enemy has ANY line of sight on me I'm gonna lose health. Whereas CoD and Halo etc. seem to be making it a bit more dynamic and less predictable. I don't have any special knowledge of Call of Duty but it seems to me like it's all hitscan all the time. Keep in mind that unlike in Duke, enemies are slow on the draw and can be reliably stunned by shooting them (if they don't die immediately) so it's not necessarily unfair.
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Apr 18, 2018 06:56
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Narcissus1916 posted:People who know things: Do most modern shooters also use hitscan and if so, how? Duke seems to make it that if an enemy has ANY line of sight on me I'm gonna lose health. Whereas CoD and Halo etc. seem to be making it a bit more dynamic and less predictable.
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Apr 18, 2018 07:06
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Im running around but if, like, I turn a corner and there's a pig cop I'll generally get a shot off, retreat to the wall, and then go out again and hopefully get a kill shot. Are you telling me I should be circle strafing way more?
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Apr 18, 2018 07:10
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One thing I always found neat about Turok is the bullet delay that increases with distance. It's never enough to have to lead your shots (the auto-aim was too generous to even make that possible anyway), but it's a nice touch. Really novel coming from Doom and Duke, which were my only FPS experiences up until then. Now with the remastered versions where you can adjust the auto-aim I'm wondering if you do actually have to lead your shots for distant enemies with it disabled. Probably not as nothing is particularly fast in those games anyway. Maybe the birds flying around the Port of Adia in Turok 2? I'm not even entirely sure if the shots are actually considered projectiles. They could be just hitscans with a feedback delay or something? Talking out of my rear end here. Edit: It varied by weapon too! Shotgun pellets and slugs are noticeably slower than bullets in Turok 1, for example. Mak0rz fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 07:15
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site posted:hey so ive been rereading masters of doom and reading up on doomwiki about the doom engine and ive watched a couple vids on build and im wondering if there are any good history articles or books or takedown vids on tim sweeny and the unreal engine? fishmech posted:This might cover some of what you're looking for
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Apr 18, 2018 07:30
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Jblade posted:It really doesn't, are you standing still or walking around and not running? Welp, points to you good sir. I have been running and trying a bit of circle strafing, but I wasn't moving near constantly enough to avoid the hitscanners. I do just fine on Doom, but its like Duke 3d demands far more erratic/sudden movements. On another note, goddamn does Duke 3d have the best rocket launcher in gaming. The gibs, the sound, the abundance of ammo.
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Apr 18, 2018 10:13
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Mak0rz posted:One thing I always found neat about Turok is the bullet delay that increases with distance. It's never enough to have to lead your shots (the auto-aim was too generous to even make that possible anyway), but it's a nice touch. Really novel coming from Doom and Duke, which were my only FPS experiences up until then. Turok's bullet delay is entirely because all weapons fire projectiles, so shotguns are firing really fast projectiles. In the Turok2 remaster I made them produce trails, so you'll spot them move sometimes (especially from other players). The remasters do not have autoaim. Of note, in Turok2 we tried to re-implement it and it broke horribly.
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Apr 18, 2018 10:21
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Ularg posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJqWA3UPsPg Heck yes; guy's my idol! How they ran id during the early days is exactly how I want to run my company.  
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Apr 18, 2018 11:02
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Narcissus1916 posted:I have been running and trying a bit of circle strafing, but I wasn't moving near constantly enough to avoid the hitscanners. I do just fine on Doom, but its like Duke 3d demands far more erratic/sudden movements. Jblade fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 11:40
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Rocket Pan posted:Turok's bullet delay is entirely because all weapons fire projectiles, so shotguns are firing really fast projectiles. In the Turok2 remaster I made them produce trails, so you'll spot them move sometimes (especially from other players). That's so cool. Thanks for the info. I'm misremembering that about autoaim in the remasters then I guess. How did things break web you tried to implement it?
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Apr 18, 2018 14:39
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Call of Duty is all hitscan. Battlefield was simulated bullets the whole time at least until Battlefield 4 (I haven't played the later ones). Basically if a modern shooter developer is lazy, it'll have hitscan weapons. Usually with slow tracers to make it look like the guns are not hitscan, which really screws with player expectation - the visuals will have a travel time, but the damage will not. It's especially bad for multiplayer games, where we've gone from essentially all skill based projectiles to all "put crosshair on enemy to hit". Hitscan used to be reserved for very special weapons - for example Tribes 2's only hitscan weapon was a laser sniper rifle with huge downsides because not having to lead was such an advantage. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 15:39
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DatonKallandor posted:Hitscan used to be reserved for very special weapons - for example Tribes 2's only hitscan weapon was a laser sniper rifle with huge downsides because not having to lead was such an advantage. Shogo: MAD has a hitscan nuclear cannon.
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Apr 18, 2018 15:55
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DatonKallandor posted:Call of Duty is all hitscan. Battlefield was simulated bullets the whole time at least until Battlefield 4 (I haven't played the later ones). Basically if a modern shooter developer is lazy, it'll have hitscan weapons. Usually with slow tracers to make it look like the guns are not hitscan, which really screws with player expectation - the visuals will have a travel time, but the damage will not. It's especially bad for multiplayer games, where we've gone from essentially all skill based projectiles to all "put crosshair on enemy to hit". Battlefield is still non-hitscan, as far as I know they all have been. Except maybe one of the console exclusives, I dunno. It's part of the reason I like the series. Mordja fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 15:59
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I can guarantee you that 1942, BF2, 2142, BF3 and BF4 at the very least were all non-hitscan for everything. One of the best things about Battlefield is that there's a lot of fights where you have to take travel time into account.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:03
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Sorry, I'm an idiot, I meant to say it still isn't hitscan, not the other way around.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:14
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DisDisDis posted:Someone out there is drawing bishi anime fanart of Marathon scenarios and that is truly living your bliss We already got anime FIREBLU girl and Door-chan out there. There are no limits, my firend. Narcissus1916 posted:People who know things: Do most modern shooters also use hitscan and if so, how? Duke seems to make it that if an enemy has ANY line of sight on me I'm gonna lose health. Whereas CoD and Halo etc. seem to be making it a bit more dynamic and less predictable. Depends. Some games actually use actual projectiles with trajectory and in others you can see projectile tracers and they mostly randomize the radius in which enemies can hit you. Most guns don't have any drop unless it's something that shoots slowly. The difference between how projectiles used to be calculated back in the day compared to the 90s is that back then bullet travel based on distance was not taken into account. It was all down to calculation and how you couldn't really afford it, so people could end up getting shot from accross a field from a pistol and it would redgister the shot immediately.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:39
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DatonKallandor posted:Call of Duty is all hitscan. Battlefield was simulated bullets the whole time at least until Battlefield 4 (I haven't played the later ones). Basically if a modern shooter developer is lazy, it'll have hitscan weapons. Usually with slow tracers to make it look like the guns are not hitscan, which really screws with player expectation - the visuals will have a travel time, but the damage will not. It's especially bad for multiplayer games, where we've gone from essentially all skill based projectiles to all "put crosshair on enemy to hit". I don't think it has anything to do with the developers being lazy; it's a conscious design choice.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:43
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It's not entirely about laziness. Remember that at the point where Call of Duty was having its groundwork laid it was very much always a smaller scaled shooter shooting for movie-ish realism. And a game that was off the back of Medal of Honor before it. Meaning that having slow dodgable projectiles didn't make sense tonally. And having super fast projectiles didn't make a lot of sense for the small environments they would travel through. Also consider that this was at a point before wide-spread high speed internet. When Call of Duty 2 hit the 360 the developer guidelines had requirements such as allowing players with upgrades of a 300-500ms connection still be able to play. And that hit scan in a multiplayer setting would help fill that gap for players without optimal connections. *rambling on*
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Apr 18, 2018 16:51
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I will say I do get hit by the Pig Cop's shotguns a lot in Duke - probably because, for a low-tier enemy, they don't get stunned very easily if at all, unlike Doom's shotgun enemies. I'm not sure if I stand too much or if this is with me bobbing and weaving everywhere like I tend to do with Doom...
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Apr 18, 2018 16:52
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chocolateTHUNDER posted:I don't think it has anything to do with the developers being lazy; it's a conscious design choice. Yeah, accounting player and client side latency and pretty much 80% of the planet having lovely connections. Whether it's on a dedicated server or p2p, some people are just screwed.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:52
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Wtf does anime FIREBLU girl look like?
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Apr 18, 2018 17:15
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I’m glad you asked: https://twitter.com/actualarborix/status/982812601057865729?s=21
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Apr 18, 2018 17:31
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quote this if you want fireblu-chan to destroy your video encoder
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Apr 18, 2018 17:41
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Meat Beat Agent posted:quote this if you want fireblu-chan to destroy your video encoder https://twitter.com/ButaneBoss/status/982934008395952128
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Apr 18, 2018 18:15
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Mak0rz posted:One thing I always found neat about Turok is the bullet delay that increases with distance. It's never enough to have to lead your shots (the auto-aim was too generous to even make that possible anyway), but it's a nice touch. Really novel coming from Doom and Duke, which were my only FPS experiences up until then. The no-hitscan projectiles in Turok were pretty neat and allowed for some interesting modding. Like here the shotgun pellets are slowed down and multiply whenever they bounce http://giant.gfycat.com/GranularConventionalFinwhale.webm
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Apr 18, 2018 18:33
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fishmech posted:This might cover some of what you're looking for The Kins posted:This is an accompanyment to a great interview where the guest from that video discusses UnrealEd 1 with Tim Sweeney and goes into the engine itself's creation and how it evolved on the way to UE4. Well worth a read. Nice, thanks guys
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Apr 18, 2018 18:54
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Uncle Kitchener posted:Yeah, accounting player and client side latency and pretty much 80% of the planet having lovely connections. Whether it's on a dedicated server or p2p, some people are just screwed. Then how come we've got more hitscan multiplayer now than we did when 56k was the norm? We went from Tribes in 1998 where we've got 64 players, gigantic maps, driveable vehicles and non-hitscan weapons to the current generation of call of duty games where every fight takes place in a closet with 12 people with hitscan rifles. Internet quality is clearly not the deciding factor.
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Apr 18, 2018 18:56
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I mean, not quite trying to PC master race here, but consoles are definitely a big part of it.
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Apr 18, 2018 18:58
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HolyKrap posted:The no-hitscan projectiles in Turok were pretty neat and allowed for some interesting modding. Like here the shotgun pellets are slowed down and multiply whenever they bounce  this is great
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Apr 18, 2018 19:05
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HolyKrap posted:The no-hitscan projectiles in Turok were pretty neat and allowed for some interesting modding. Like here the shotgun pellets are slowed down and multiply whenever they bounce This reminds me of when I'd freeze time in Unreal Tournament 99 and go around blasting Flak grenades everywhere, then slow down time and unfreeze.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:58
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Mak0rz posted:That's so cool. Thanks for the info. Something was quite wrong with the model data, causing their bounds to be reported in far larger/different locations from their actual collisions, so the engine had a hard time determining what to actually aim at. Turok2 had this problem all over the place, and was the reason we had to remake all the bridges in port of adia. DatonKallandor posted:Then how come we've got more hitscan multiplayer now than we did when 56k was the norm? We went from Tribes in 1998 where we've got 64 players, gigantic maps, driveable vehicles and non-hitscan weapons to the current generation of call of duty games where every fight takes place in a closet with 12 people with hitscan rifles. Internet quality is clearly not the deciding factor. Rocket Pan fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 20:39
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NuclearPotato posted:I’m glad you asked: That's pretty disappointing to be honest. It doesn't look like actual FIREBLU except for the shoes. it's just red and blue skin disorder girl.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:01
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Rocket Pan posted:Something was quite wrong with the model data, causing their bounds to be reported in far larger/different locations from their actual collisions, so the engine had a hard time determining what to actually aim at. Turok2 had this problem all over the place, and was the reason we had to remake all the bridges in port of adia. Bungie/343 uses Bullet Magnetism as a part of aim assist but that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be projectiles for it to work. It's just calculations based off your aim when you pull the trigger. It's just any game that isn't the scale of Battlefield just does not benefit from bullet physics models, it'd be a waste of resources and they can probably fudge stuff like tracers to make it feel better if they need to. Although, it's funny, I kinda grew up with Hitscan, and even though I played UT04 as a kid I find it really hard to go back because there's only one decent hitscan automatic that feels good to use and only two projectile weapons (Flak and Rocket Launcher) that feel intuitive and fun. gently caress the blobby gun.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:06
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I just finished playing Valiant with the Doom Incarnate weapon mod and that's a good megaWAD Valiant but with a weapon mod like Doom Incarnate which has upgrades and has a larger scope than normal does not go with Valiant's episodic nature where the player is reset to pistol every ~6 missions. Doom Incarnate is really good, I find. Even the lowest tier weapons feel stronger then vanilla DooM 2 so I like to use it on WADs that have loads of enemy counts. I'm going to play more with it to see how crazy powerful I can get.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:16
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Arivia posted:That's pretty disappointing to be honest. It doesn't look like actual FIREBLU except for the shoes. it's just red and blue skin disorder girl. Babylon Astronaut fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Apr 19, 2018 |
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Apr 19, 2018 00:46
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DisDisDis posted:Someone out there is drawing bishi anime fanart of Marathon scenarios and that is truly living your bliss This is reminding me that I still have Marathon: Phoenix in my to-play pile.
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Apr 19, 2018 01:25
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DatonKallandor posted:Then how come we've got more hitscan multiplayer now than we did when 56k was the norm? We went from Tribes in 1998 where we've got 64 players, gigantic maps, driveable vehicles and non-hitscan weapons to the current generation of call of duty games where every fight takes place in a closet with 12 people with hitscan rifles. Internet quality is clearly not the deciding factor. 56k connections may have been slow, but the latency was a ton more consistent. It was rare for your dialup players trying to reach a given server to do better than 110 milliseconds or worse than 250 milliseconds. This provides a lot of benefits and frankly controls and play don't usually need more than the ~33 kilobit per second max upload on 56k to work well. If you track the real data usage on a lot of modern online games, they'd be playable on dialup so long as you're just looking at the bandwidth. In this modern world, some of your players have latency of just 5-8 milliseconds and a not insignificant number of players at 30-40 and even some people at 80-90 or up past dial up for people who are playing on things like particularly laggy 3G/4G connections. And you want to do a solution that can handle this vast range of latencies as gracefully as possible.
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Apr 19, 2018 04:56
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I still remain convinced that FIREBLU would make the most delicious ice-cream flavor, ever.
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Apr 19, 2018 05:10
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ChickenHeart posted:I still remain convinced that FIREBLU would make the most delicious ice-cream flavor, ever. Like sweet blueberries and tart raspberries
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