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I'm guessing it depends on whether you owe taxes or not. If they owe you a refund due to automatic withholding, they don't give a fraction of a poo poo if you file (but you should, because you'll get money back). If you owe them money, they care very much that you file and pay.
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Apr 18, 2018 15:38
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There’s no advice there, you should pay your taxes. And yes if your employer is filling taxes for income they gave you it’ll probably get noticed eventually. It may not seem like it but 3 years of not filing taxes is kinda a long time to notice when your employer is doing W2s.
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Apr 18, 2018 15:43
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Invalid Validation posted:https://www.google.com/amp/s/turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/general/what-does-it-mean-that-taxes-are-voluntary/amp/L5cjhVlhh. Filing isn't paying I think is the point you're trying to make. For a lot of people filing taxes correctly is important because they'll get some money back. For others filing taxes is important because they need to know how much extra to pay on top of withholding. But you're technically right in that you don't have to file, you just have to pay what you owe. If you don't know that you owe money you're screwed, and if you're not getting the money they owe you you're also just screwing yourself. Even if you have no income filing taxes right may get you a free cash handout for an education or earned income credit depending on your situation. But it is 100% legal to not file taxes.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:01
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Jesus Christ, I thought I'd have to look at Reddit for this kind of nonsense. I'll try to keep this simple. For certain people, filing federal taxes is optional. If you have no income, you don't have to file. If your income (or you and your spouse's combined income if filing jointly) is below a certain threshold, you don't have to file, though you will want to because below that threshold, you owe no tax, and if your employer took out taxes, you probably want them returned to you. There are a some other little ways to shimmy out of the requirement, but they pretty much all involve owing no taxes because your income is below the standard deduction and exemption(s). Here's a guide that tells you whether filing is required or not. If you don't fit into one of those categories, and they are handily spelled out in the instructions for the 1040 form, then you must file your taxes. There are no iffs, ands, or butts about it--you have to file. Failure to do so is, in and of itself, a crime, even if you owe $0.00. Now... will the IRS catch you right away? No. I've known a few people who have purposefully cheated on taxes because they were low on money and figured that they could make it up in a few years when they were caught. And in a few years, they were caught (because they all had this "brilliant" idea of a scheme together), and yeah, they had to pay. But, that was their plan all along: short term gain. I thought it was dumb, but it worked out kind-of like how they planned. Thankfully, even with interest, they didn't have to pay too awful much. Nothing that is optional ever carries legal penalties for those who don't choose to do whatever it is (like filing taxes). That's not what "optional" means. Just because the IRS can't instantly catch you not doing what you're supposed to be doing, and just because some people might be off the grid/below the radar just enough to never get caught, that doesn't mean that it's "optional" for them to file. It's required; they're just not doing it and getting away with it. C'mon, people. This is really basic stuff.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:23
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From a moral standpoint, you should pay your taxes because they pay for things that make your society a better place for you to live. From a legal standpoint, not paying your taxes is a crime, but there are a number of ways to obfuscate the process to avoid paying for a considerable amount of time, and there are people who get away with not paying for an embarrassing amount of time. Theoretically, they'll always get caught in the end, but enforcing can be expensive, and if you've ever seen sovereign citizens, you'll know how difficult they can be. A law actually had to passed making most sovcit "get out of taxes" schemes a crime so that they'd stop using them in court and wasting time. There's a reason why other countries try to to PR campaigns either trying to make people extra-afraid of the IRS or trying to shame them into paying their taxes properly. I like David Mitchell's suggestion.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:53
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tarlibone posted:Jesus Christ, I thought I'd have to look at Reddit for this kind of nonsense. I think generally if you are low/no income you would file in order to get your rebate, unless you were some kind of loving idiot, which basically covers the rest of what you're describing here.
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Apr 18, 2018 18:30
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Yeah, the state will gently caress you over if you straight up don’t pay, but I think “creative” accounting and “out of the box” thinking when it comes to stuff like deductions is probably being grossly abused right now and that’s more difficult to control without actual audits.
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Apr 18, 2018 18:49
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dont even fink about it posted:I think generally if you are low/no income you would file in order to get your rebate, unless you were some kind of loving idiot, which basically covers the rest of what you're describing here. You would think, but I've actually run into people who didn't file for years. Granted this was in Canada, not the US, but they filed their missing years with assistance from our equivalent of the IRS, and got a refund since withholding more than covered everything they owed.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:01
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Invalid Validation posted:I can’t find the specific podcast with a quick Google search but filing taxes is entirely voluntary, sure there’s a penalty for not paying, but they have to enforce it too. People constantly use this kind of language to describe tax law, and I find it so odd. "It's voluntary, but this government agency has the institutional power to prosecute you for not doing it." That's definitionally how laws work; "you can murder someone, but the police and court system may enforce a penalty if you do."
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Apr 18, 2018 19:20
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Filing a tax return and paying taxes are two entirely different things. I don't know what US law actually says, but "you must pay your taxes" and "you are not obligated to file a tax return" are not contradictory statements.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:34
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You don't need to file most of the time here in New Zealand as most tax people face is at the point of purchase like GST and PAYE(Pay as you earn). You can file if you wish as this generates a far more accurate tax bill. I never thought to file myself until a couple years ago and got a massive tax refund. They will come after you if you owe them something substantial(More than a couple hundred) file or not and their computers are linked to the banks proper so they will notice. Like any taxman they won't chase you to give a refund.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:35
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Xealot posted:People constantly use this kind of language to describe tax law, and I find it so odd. "It's voluntary, but this government agency has the institutional power to prosecute you for not doing it." That's definitionally how laws work; "you can murder someone, but the police and court system may enforce a penalty if you do." I probably didn’t get it over that great the point is that people don’t think of taxes as their civic duty like they used to. It’s seen as the government stealing their hard earned money for moochers. Which leads to less people wanting to pay their taxes, which leads to the defunding of the IRS that actually enforced the law that makes people pay.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:54
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Invalid Validation posted:I probably didn’t get it over that great the point is that people don’t think of taxes as their civic duty like they used to. It’s seen as the government stealing their hard earned money for moochers. Which leads to less people wanting to pay their taxes, which leads to the defunding of the IRS that actually enforced the law that makes people pay. 
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Apr 18, 2018 20:14
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PT6A posted:Filing a tax return and paying taxes are two entirely different things. I don't know what US law actually says, but "you must pay your taxes" and "you are not obligated to file a tax return" are not contradictory statements. There is a very strict and clear definition on who must file and who can choose not to do so. The only people who have the legal right to "choose" to not file are people who fit into the little table I linked to earlier. Everyone else, even if they owe no taxes, must file. Also, if employer income tax withholdings weren't sufficient to satisfy your tax burden, then you have to pay the difference--and there is no way to do that without filing. (But, again, even if you owe no additional taxes, and even if you owe no tax at all, unless you fit one of the scenarios in the table, you have to file.)
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Apr 18, 2018 22:36
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For reference, Australian tax paying experience: Every month a percentage is withheld from my salary and passed onto the Australian Tax Office (ATO). At the end of the year I log onto the ATO website and have the option of auto-filling all my details (address, phone number, bank account etc) with my previous years information. I can then enter my income details by hand, or click a button that autofills them based on the information my employers have already reported. Click through a few pages of basic yes/no questions to see if I have any deductions, get an estimated refund/debt (usually a return) and then 2-3 weeks later the money (if I was owed any back) appears in my bank account. The US experience sounds hellish.
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Apr 19, 2018 01:14
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Senor Tron posted:For reference, Australian tax paying experience: If you use an online service like TurboTax or TaxAct it's largely similar, most big payroll companies partner with them so the details can get filled in automatically and then the software does all the calculations and stuff. If the payroll companies don't partner with them you have to enter all of that info in manually and then the software calculates everything, and then the filing happens over the internet. The main difference is that this usually costs money. Also we have to do it both for the federal government but also for our state (except for the few states that don't have an income tax) In rare situations (like if you're unable to verify your identity with the online service) you have to do it on paper and mail it in and doing it that way is intimidating so people go to tax preparation services to get it done for them.
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Apr 19, 2018 01:29
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Irish perspective: I remember seeing mentions of tax filing on American TV growing up and just thinking it was a fact of life, but never hearing anyone mention it outside that so just assumed it was something that I'd get around to learning or needing to do eventually. I think the first time I came across it was in an episode of the Simpsons, with Homer and Ned being contrasted against each other in their attitudes to it. It was only years later that I realized that for all that I see mentions of tax season and tax filing in TV it's not something I'd ever heard anyone mention. I'm honestly not even entirely certain how it works in Ireland come to it, but the American system seems like a horrific pain and while tax is never nice I certainly can't imagine hating the tax system. The couple of times I've been to a local tax office they've been immensely helpful and I've usually ended up with some kind of rebate a while later because of it.
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Apr 19, 2018 01:44
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Here in Chile if you've got an employer then you don't have to do absolutely anything. The tax service will automatically file and deduct income taxes without need to fill anything out, because all information is available to the government already. The civil registry (the guys that issue national IDs), for example, will know your address and phone and you can update it via internet if you move or change numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if they also cross-check with your health insurance and/or social security company. Since pretty much everything is registered against your national ID, it's trivial for them to query banks for your banking details. And so on. If you're self-employed and use the tax service's electronic system to emit receipts, then that will also auto-file the relevant taxes so you just need to pay as required. If you don't then it gets more complicated, naturally, but overall the effort is minimal friction. You can do everything online.
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Apr 19, 2018 04:01
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It's the same in the UK. I literally do nothing with my taxes and then at the end of the tax year the government sends me a letter and sometimes it's got some money inside, sometimes it doesn't.
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Apr 19, 2018 04:59
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As an American I like, never get to hear this about other countries. Literally no one here knows that tax season is unnecessary (and unnecessarily lovely) because no one ever has this conversation in a multi-national group. Thanks John Oliver, I guess
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Apr 19, 2018 07:13
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The answer to "why is [random American thing] so needlessly complicated and horrible" is always "because someone found a way to profit from its brokenness/inefficiency and formed a lobby to ensure it is never fixed or improved."
BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Apr 19, 2018 |
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Apr 19, 2018 07:32
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Invalid Validation posted:I probably didn’t get it over that great the point is that people don’t think of taxes as their civic duty like they used to. It’s seen as the government stealing their hard earned money for moochers. Which leads to less people wanting to pay their taxes, which leads to the defunding of the IRS that actually enforced the law that makes people pay. And a huge part of the tax resentment of the US is partly because it's so visible and such a huge task, I suspect. The hands-off tax system of in most developed countries means that it's more accepted as just something that happens. Hell, not just income taxes, but the arse-backwards way that you guys do sales taxes (like most places, here it's just included in the display price). You're constantly hassled by them.
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Apr 19, 2018 08:06
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Senor Tron posted:For reference, Australian tax paying experience: But yeah, 80 to 90% of the population will have reeeeeeeally simple taxes that they can complete online in a few minutes.
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Apr 19, 2018 10:59
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In the Netherlands they send you what they know are your total income and assets, and any money they withheld already (and if applicable to be paid over capital gains). You get to check if its all correct. After that you doublecheck your more standard deductibles, and in case you are like me you add all your other (mostly medical) deductibles they obviously can't 100% know about yet. Then you send it and you get money back or get send a invoice if you have to pay. This can be done all-digital if you want. Zedd fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Apr 19, 2018 |
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Apr 19, 2018 11:37
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Dumb Lowtax posted:As an American I like, never get to hear this about other countries. Literally no one here knows that tax season is unnecessary (and unnecessarily lovely) because no one ever has this conversation in a multi-national group. Thanks John Oliver, I guess Whereas a fuckton of people in the rest of the world know relatively a lot about this and many other minutiae of American life because of your cultural dominance. I think Americans don't have a clue as to just how large the gap is between what a random non-American knows about you versus what you know about even a single major non-American country, or it's citizens, let alone even a vague idea of what their lives are like. It's sometimes really frustrating debating poo poo with Americans when they will insist things are impossible or obviously have to be done a certain way when you know from personal experience that to be absolute bullshit. I mean for on example, I know what a "hallway pass" is even though that's not a thing here.
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Apr 19, 2018 11:53
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NZ does have a "Tax Season" in the very loosest of terms in that it is the end of the financial year. As before the average bloke doesn't have to give a poo poo. It really helps that we don't have "MAH TAXES" in that most people can connect taxes= public services especially through Universal Health Care. If you meet a dumbass you just point to taxes = roads and most will shut up which is something Americans can't seem to do. Progressive tax brackets continue to vex people. But for most part taxes are invisible. How well spent and how much is always up for debate. We kicked out the right wing government the left is now putting out bush fires and looking for bombs from inheriting a mess of the economy because that's what right wingers do. The view the rest of the world has about America is that they are already powerful but make things endlessly difficult for themselves for no reason and are mostly red neck level ignorant about solutions to their problems made worse by American Exceptionalism. For me I imagine if you ever get your poo poo together for a few key things it would create a golden age for humanity. It's partially why Obama was so popular as he was clear working towards that and a loving relief from Republicans while it lasted. I personally see Republicans as a treasonous for the damage they do that every single one needs to go to jail or put up to against the wall.
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Apr 19, 2018 12:08
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Forgive my ignorance about how the US works, but doesn't a huge chunk of tax dollars go to funding the military? It's my impression that a large majority of these "taxes are theft" people are also all rah rah rah about ARE TROOPS.
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Apr 19, 2018 12:12
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We're a country that even found a way to complicate and put a profit motive behind feeding kids *lunch* in schools. In the vast majority of American public schools, the cafeterias are run by contractors backed by contracts that would make the Devil himself blush. Any threat to *any* aspect of their profit or business, and the contractors will threaten the school district with breach of contract. When I was in high school, there was a Coke machine in the 'Career Center' of the vocational section that students 'found' and started buying soda to go with their lunch. This made the cafeteria people *angry*, because it cut down ever-so-slightly on their ability to profit from milk and fruit juice, which was the only thing they offered, and we liked what was *bad* for us. They threatened to *close the cafeteria* (and thus the school, as the school can't legally operate unless it can feed the children, and organizing 1500+ bag lunches in short order isn't in the cards) unless the machine was removed. And if you non-Americans really want to read something horrible, Google "free and reduced lunch programs" and "lunch shaming." https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/u-s-schools-rethink-lunch-shaming-policies-humiliate-children-meal-debts https://thebestschools.org/magazine/lunch-shaming-schoolchildren-yes-actual-thing/ BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Apr 19, 2018 |
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Apr 19, 2018 12:16
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MikeJF posted:And a huge part of the tax resentment of the US is partly because it's so visible and such a huge task, I suspect. The hands-off tax system of in most developed countries means that it's more accepted as just something that happens. My dad doesn't want the sales tax included in the price because he doesn't want them "hiding extra taxes" in there 
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Apr 19, 2018 13:31
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Zedd posted:In the Netherlands they send you what they know are your total income and assets, and any money they withheld already (and if applicable to be paid over capital gains). You get to check if its all correct. That's like, literally, how my taxes are in the US. About the only difference is I had to pay a third party $50 to file my federal digitally. US taxes can get complicated, but for many people all they really need to do is verify their income and withholdings and add like 1 or 2 other things that may reduce their tax liability. State and local were ever easier and free to file digitally. I think I did my taxes this year in 10 minutes and I got my refund 5 days later. "Tax season" is another one of those things that's overwrought in popular culture for no real reason. They can get more complex depending on your situation (private contractor, various investments) but it's really a minor task for the vast majority of people that are on W2 jobs, have 1 1/2 kids, and may/may not own a house,
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Apr 19, 2018 13:55
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bull3964 posted:That's like, literally, how my taxes are in the US. About the only difference is I had to pay a third party $50 to file my federal digitally. Sure, but the idea here is that you shouldn't have to pay the $50, and you certainly shouldn't need to pay a third-party. Uncle Sam knows how much you owe. Like you say, for the vast majority of the population, they've already run your tax return for you. But for some strange reason (not really so strange, the tax preparation companies have lobbyists) they make you do your own version. Seeing as how they're already doing your return anyway, they should just mail you a copy saying 'Anything we don't know about?' Then you either amend and return, or just sign off on it, and that's that.
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Apr 19, 2018 15:51
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Yea mine are super simple and I do it myself I’m really jealous I have to pay someone to file the taxes I did myself anyways. Then they have the gall to charge you separately for state tax.
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Apr 19, 2018 16:01
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Orange Devil posted:Whereas a fuckton of people in the rest of the world know relatively a lot about this and many other minutiae of American life because of your cultural dominance. I suppose the corollary the that is the fact that if America was doing anything much much better than the rest of the world, everywhere else in the world has had at least 50 years hearing what was so great about it to catch up and surpass us, so we're no longer the gold standard, we're at best the average. BIG HEADLINE posted:The answer to "why is [random American thing] so needlessly complicated and horrible" is always "because someone found a way to profit from its brokenness/inefficiency and formed a lobby to ensure it is never fixed or improved." God, this is so true it hurts.
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Apr 19, 2018 16:29
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TheCenturion posted:Sure, but the idea here is that you shouldn't have to pay the $50, and you certainly shouldn't need to pay a third-party. I believe the point bull3964 is making is that for the vast majority of Americans, you don't have to pay the $50, and you don't have to pay a third party. (Which shouldn't be hyphenated in this case, by the way. You only hyphenate it when the entire phrase is being used as one adjective, like in "third-party designee." In this context, "party" is the direct object, and "third" is just an adjective modifying that object. No hyphen is necessary.) For the vast majority of Americans, federal taxes can be prepared in less than half an hour, and that's if you're working on paper with a pencil and a calculator. The main reason so many of this vast majority use a paid service to do their taxes is for convenience: you don't have to do anything other than hand over your W2s and whatever other income stuff (and deduction stuff if itemizing) you have. Also, by using these services, you can get one of "instant refund" checks that's really a loan against your return, where you lose some of your return but you get your bucks NOW so you can go to the Walmarts and buy a new TV. Now, that in and of itself is a pretty big scam, and it preys on the poor, but that's a topic for a different show. Personally, I'd be OK with the government telling me how much I owe (or don't). But, I don't have any self-employment income; all my money comes from a regular job, and it's all reported on my W2. But, I know a lot of people who just don't trust the government, and they would never trust it to do their taxes. quote:Uncle Sam knows how much you owe. Like you say, for the vast majority of the population, they've already run your tax return for you. But for some strange reason (not really so strange, the tax preparation companies have lobbyists) they make you do your own version. Seeing as how they're already doing your return anyway, they should just mail you a copy saying 'Anything we don't know about?' Then you either amend and return, or just sign off on it, and that's that. That would be nice. But again, Americans tend to be mistrustful of their government, much more so than people in, say, Europe. Even if you demolished the tax preparation industry, and even if everyone was OK with that, this would be a hard sell for a lot of people.
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Apr 19, 2018 16:50
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Stare-Out posted:Forgive my ignorance about how the US works, but doesn't a huge chunk of tax dollars go to funding the military? It's my impression that a large majority of these "taxes are theft" people are also all rah rah rah about ARE TROOPS. Yes, this is one of the major contradictions in American politics. The people most vocal about cutting spending are also the ones that insist on dumping more and more money into involving the US in foreign conflicts where their presence will just make things worse. Generally the whole "taxes are theft" crowd don't REALLY care about responsible spending, they just see it as an easy excuse to go after ideological opponents like Planned Parenthood, despite them making up a fraction of a percent of overall spending. As mentioned earlier, the fundamental truth in US politics is that it's broken on purpose, because someone found a way to make money off it. Political apathy is also deliberately encouraged, so while the mechanisms exist to fix the problems democratically, it's very hard to build up a large enough popular movement to shift the inertia. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Apr 19, 2018 |
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Apr 19, 2018 17:49
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tarlibone posted:I believe the point bull3964 is making is that for the vast majority of Americans, you don't have to pay the $50, and you don't have to pay a third party. (Which shouldn't be hyphenated in this case, by the way. You only hyphenate it when the entire phrase is being used as one adjective, like in "third-party designee." In this context, "party" is the direct object, and "third" is just an adjective modifying that object. No hyphen is necessary.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Joe Q. American who can do his taxes in 30 minutes with pencil and paper does so, and comes to a different answer than Uncle Sugar, doesn't Uncle Sugar's answer win? I'm not sure what it has to do with 'trusting the government' when 'the government' is the one with the authority here, anyway. And again, the point is that even that half hour with a pencil and paper is still a half hour duplicating work that Uncle Sugar has already done on your behalf.
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Apr 19, 2018 17:49
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Yes, this is one of the major contradictions in American politics. The people most vocal about cutting spending are also the ones that insist on dumping more and more money into involving the US in foreign conflicts where their presence will just make things worse. Yeah that sounds about right. I'd have a hearty laugh about how completely blatant and absurd it all is but it's impossible when actual proper people are being hosed over big time because of it.
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Apr 19, 2018 17:56
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In general, every problem is a feature, not a bug.
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Apr 19, 2018 17:59
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TheCenturion posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Joe Q. American who can do his taxes in 30 minutes with pencil and paper I disagree with your premise.
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Apr 19, 2018 18:10
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TheCenturion posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Joe Q. American who can do his taxes in 30 minutes with pencil and paper does so, and comes to a different answer than Uncle Sugar, doesn't Uncle Sugar's answer win? The return would be double checked, and Joe's solution can be evaluated.
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Apr 19, 2018 18:31
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