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bell jar posted:god you're a piece of poo poo. how generous of you to want the welfare system raised, something which doesn't affect you at all. Calm the gently caress down. Whitlam is talking about people who intentionally defraud the system and are now making a wage. You're talking about people who unintentionally defraud the system and aren't making a wage. Two completely different things.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:00
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MysticalMachineGun posted:Calm the gently caress down. Whitlam is talking about people who intentionally defraud the system and are now making a wage. Whitlam is talking about mist, ghosts, visions of the oasis after a hard trek through the desert. Things that don't exist, or exist on a scale negligible enough to not be worth troubling normal people for
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Apr 20, 2018 03:02
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Should we implement interest on HECS if someone took money for a course but didn't complete it? Doesn't the Government deserve to get it back and then some? For people who took Government money for a purpose they didn't follow through on? I'm not talking about the good people who take HECS and then finish the course, but it would deter students who might drop out to not take the money in the first place. Makes you think
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Apr 20, 2018 03:04
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Committing centrelink fraud is actually a moral imperative. Bad rules shouldn't be followed.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:06
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asio posted:Committing centrelink fraud is actually a moral imperative. Bad rules shouldn't be followed. this unironically
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Apr 20, 2018 03:07
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bell jar posted:this unironically If you read the original text, Moses actually brought a public servant's spreadsheet down from the mountain.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:09
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How about pensioners, which are the biggest portion overall of welfare in this country, and also the highest rate of welfare fraud (actually easy to do, not like scamming Newstart). Should they pay the pension back with interest if its determined that they shouldn't get it?
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Apr 20, 2018 03:09
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Most cases of centrelink fraud are perpetrated by pensioners. How does this work into the narrative of bash the poors and also bash the boomers? Anyway, I thought this interest payment was supposed to be applied to people who had held debt to centrelink for an extended period of time and still hadn't even attempted to pay any of it back yet.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:10
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For some reason we don't have a cultural hatred of old people trying to live on Government money when they could feasibly work 
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Apr 20, 2018 03:10
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bell jar posted:Should we implement interest on HECS if someone took money for a course but didn't complete it? Doesn't the Government deserve to get it back and then some? For people who took Government money for a purpose they didn't follow through on? They already "annually adjust" HECS which is interest by stealth bell jar posted:How about pensioners, which are the biggest portion overall of welfare in this country, and also the highest rate of welfare fraud (actually easy to do, not like scamming Newstart). Should they pay the pension back with interest if its determined that they shouldn't get it? I am completely against welfare fraud and I am completely against this shithead government chasing people they shouldn't. However when tax time comes and due to overtime, role changes and higher duties if I owe Centrelink money due to Family Tax Benefits, I'm going to pay them back rather than ride into the sunset saying gently caress the police.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:11
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You can’t unintentionally commit fraud.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:12
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bell jar posted:For some reason we don't have a cultural hatred of old people trying to live on Government money when they could feasibly work They’ve done enough work already, Pulling up ladders is hard yakka
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Apr 20, 2018 03:14
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Birdstrike posted:You can’t unintentionally commit fraud. Is that a legal or a practical definition?
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Apr 20, 2018 03:15
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MysticalMachineGun posted:They already "annually adjust" HECS which is interest by stealth This seems disingenuous unless it’s adjusted by more than the CPI. I don’t know because I’ve never earned enough to actually pay back my HECS
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Apr 20, 2018 03:16
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MysticalMachineGun posted:Is that a legal or a practical definition? The intent is what makes it fraud so... either?
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Apr 20, 2018 03:17
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Abdel-Magied has endorsed a former GetUp! director who urged for people to tweet “Lest we forget (Manus)” on April 25.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:20
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MysticalMachineGun posted:They already "annually adjust" HECS which is interest by stealth No it's not. It's so the debt stays the same value over time, despite dollars changing value. If I borrowed $5,000 from you in 1980, and paid you back $5,000 today, I'd have ripped you the gently caress off.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:24
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Birdstrike posted:The intent is what makes it fraud so... either? Okay, so intent is the difference maker here. What if Centrelink change the rules and don't communicate effectively, does that count as fraud if someone continues under the assumption of the old rules? I would blow Dane Cook posted:Abdel-Magied has endorsed a former GetUp! director who urged for people to tweet “Lest we forget (Manus)” on April 25. Endorsed for what? And really, everyone should repeat that tweet every year, bloody chickenhawk loving snowflakes. Anzac Day and Remembrance Day are about remembering how lovely it is when people get up and kill each other, so whatever atrocities we're committing against people at the moment are very relevant.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:24
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bell jar posted:For some reason we don't have a cultural hatred of old people trying to live on Government money when they could feasibly work We can't have this both ways - we also know an issue with the current workforce is that they aren't retiring and job positions are being limited by them not retiring. Either we want them to go or work forever.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:25
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Knobb Manwich posted:No it's not. It's so the debt stays the same value over time, despite dollars changing value. If I borrowed $5,000 from you in 1980, and paid you back $5,000 today, I'd have ripped you the gently caress off. I'd love to see the graph of inflation versus what they charge because it seems out of whack to me, but I may be mistaken. It felt like I saw a marked increase in my HECs debt over years, not decades.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:25
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The longer the current older generation work the longer we'll be expected to work when we get to that age. Things like raising the retirement age, "go home from work on time" day and other stuff shows we're losing the battle against work/life balance, and it'll only get worse.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:27
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MysticalMachineGun posted:I am completely against welfare fraud and I am completely against this shithead government chasing people they shouldn't. Ceci n'est pas une empty quote.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:28
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bell jar posted:Should we implement interest on HECS if someone took money for a course but didn't complete it? Doesn't the Government deserve to get it back and then some? For people who took Government money for a purpose they didn't follow through on?
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Apr 20, 2018 03:30
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MysticalMachineGun posted:The longer the current older generation work the longer we'll be expected to work when we get to that age.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:34
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Lid posted:How do we view shoplifters?
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Apr 20, 2018 04:02
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyne_%26_Marles
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Apr 20, 2018 04:04
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Even in Whitlams own, made up example the reasons his imaginary friends defraud the system is because they think they won't be caught, or if they are, they can ignore the fine and somehow not get sent to prison. Letting the Dept of Human Services add interest as they see fit not only won't stop these figments of someone's imagination doing the crime, it also won't make Centrelink easier to get or prevent it from being harder to get in any way. Plus there's that whole thing where a single part of the government can issue what can be an actual permanent financial punishment at their own discretion. But hey for some reason that is fine.
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Apr 20, 2018 04:08
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CrazyTolradi posted:That already happens if you withdraw after the census date. AFAIK interest isn't charged on it. There was some talk of implementing it during Abbott years but it was shot down as hosed iirc. Might be wrong.
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Apr 20, 2018 04:15
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MysticalMachineGun posted:The longer the current older generation work the longer we'll be expected to work when we get to that age. The Government (Abbott/Turnbull can't remember which) already raised the minimum retirement age, can't wait til its moved again by the time I'm ready to stop slaving at the capitalist machine
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Apr 20, 2018 04:16
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Gentleman Baller posted:Even in Whitlams own, made up example the reasons his imaginary friends defraud the system is because they think they won't be caught, or if they are, they can ignore the fine and somehow not get sent to prison. I like it when people neatly summarize what I'm trying to say when I'm doing a bad job of it. This is exactly it. They aren't deterred by punishment because in their mind they will never be punished this is why deterrents don't actually deter. People aren't rational actors.
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Apr 20, 2018 04:17
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bell jar posted:AFAIK interest isn't charged on it. There was some talk of implementing it during Abbott years but it was shot down as hosed iirc. Might be wrong. EDIT: This why it's generally considered unwise to pay off HECS early (or pay more than you must), because it's essentially debt with interest much lower than current interest rates are.
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Apr 20, 2018 04:21
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A question: Is it worthwhile funding a department to prevent welfare fraud if the cost of running the department exceeds the amount of fraud offset by its existence? A hypothetical: Wouldn't the best way to reduce welfare fraud be to give welfare to everyone, so that people don't feel the need to defraud the state for money, or make mistakes while filing their claims?
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Apr 20, 2018 04:21
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Gentleman Baller posted:Even in Whitlams own, made up example the reasons his imaginary friends defraud the system is because they think they won't be caught, or if they are, they can ignore the fine and somehow not get sent to prison. Her, and I'm willing to accept it may be a generational/situational thing but the perspective and mentality is that it's no big deal, the system is broken so why shouldn't I get as much as I can, all my friends are doing it and they've never been caught so why shouldn't I? I mean sure they're not fraudulently claiming hundreds of thousands a year so they're probably not high on the priority list and won't be caught unless they're randomly audited, but if your argument is the system is perfect and nobody ever commits Centrelink fraud then just lol.
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Apr 20, 2018 04:22
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CrazyTolradi posted:It's not called interest, but HECS debt is indexed to CPI each year on June 1st which is basically interest by another name. The only way that this would be akin to interest, would be if wages weren't linked to CPI and inflation increased faster than wage-oh i see what you mean (still, this isn't a punitive measure, just a side effect of inflation being a part of capitalism, and poorly regulated wage markets. it still sucks but i don't think it's malicious compared to adding interest to welfare repayments)
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Apr 20, 2018 04:25
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bell jar posted:AFAIK interest isn't charged on it. There was some talk of implementing it during Abbott years but it was shot down as hosed iirc. Might be wrong. I think it was part of the colossal overhaul the Abbott government tried and failed ignominiously to implement. Later attempts by the Turnbull government to water it down and feed it through a hose have also failed iirc.
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Apr 20, 2018 04:27
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Whitlam posted:I'm willing to accept it may be a generational/situational thing but the perspective and mentality that I percieve, anecdotally, is that it's no big deal, the system is broken so why shouldn't I get as much as I can, all my friends are doing it and they've never been caught so why shouldn't I? I mean sure my assumption is they're not fraudulently claiming hundreds of thousands a year so they're probably not high on the priority list and won't be caught unless they're randomly audited, but if your argument is the system is perfect and nobody ever commits Centrelink fraud then just lol. Fixed your post. Almost everyone that I know is on Centrelink, and I can assume that I know a lot more people that are actually on it than you based on your projections of welfare fraud. None of them have this attitude. None of them believe that the system is broken in a way for them to exploit. None of them have friends that are exploiting Centrelink. You're taking your lived experiences and projecting them onto a whole class of people you don't know and will never meet. Your hatred of people possibly getting money that they didn't 'earn' or had graciously given to them by the state is logical and makes sense based on the way you perceive these people, because someone somehow getting free money when you personally have had to work your whole life for what you've got makes you mad. The thing is -- even if the system is broken enough for people to be able to defraud it, brag about it, and share how to do it with their friends -- it's not easy to get onto Centrelink (you yourself said that) and the people who somehow manage to get onto it, stay on it, and potentially live off it, are definitely putting in work to keep it that way and aren't lying around having fake children and buying iPhones, or whatever it is you think poor people do when they're stealing from are government. Spend an afternoon at the local Centrelink. Talk to the people there, ask them about their experiences. Ask them if Centrelink has ever made mistakes with their cases and denied them funds they were eligible for before sending them through the wringer for it. Ask them if they've ever had to prove that their kids require a carer at school over and over and over again because the system has decided that their kid is fine. Ask them actually loving anything about their lives instead of assuming that there's this poor mafia sitting around on their beanbags raking in money for nothing. You disgust me
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Apr 20, 2018 04:36
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if welfare fraud is good it stands to reason that corporate fraud is good and that’s why auspol stands in solidarity with the big banks
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Apr 20, 2018 04:40
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bell jar posted:Fixed your post. Almost everyone that I know is on Centrelink, and I can assume that I know a lot more people that are actually on it than you based on your projections of welfare fraud. None of them have this attitude. None of them believe that the system is broken in a way for them to exploit. None of them have friends that are exploiting Centrelink. You're taking your lived experiences and projecting them onto a whole class of people you don't know and will never meet. I've tried to be civil and respond to your points, but you can't do the same because you're behaving like you're actually rabid. Do not lecture me on what it's like to be disadvantaged when you don't know anything about me or my situation. I literally work with the homeless as part of my job, getting people into housing. Most of my friends are at university and rely on Newstart and Youth Allowance. Since you apparently need it spelled out for you, here it goes: the overwhelming majority of people who receive Centrelink are doing the right thing. Most are receiving it due to a confluence of factors outside their control. A small minority of people, however, are knowingly committing welfare fraud. These people deserve to be punished. If that is in any way a controversial statement to you, you need to readjust your priorities.
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Apr 20, 2018 04:47
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CrazyTolradi posted:Telstra management would always talk about "things to say at family BBQ's" and the like. I was recently surprised to see this exactly at DXC as well. I thought it was bizarre.
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Apr 20, 2018 04:49
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Whitlam posted:These people deserve to be punished. If that is in any way a controversial statement to you, you need to readjust your priorities. You're suggesting that ALL people need to be punished by adding interest rates to debts BECAUSE OF the existence of these people that "deserve" to be punished (as if they aren't being punished already for committing fraud you loving moron). My issue is that you aren't punishing THOSE PEOPLE you're punishing EVERYONE by tarring them with the same brush. Your position rests on the misguided idea that somehow welfare frauds aren't being punished. You've stated that you personally know lots of people that commit welfare fraud. Perhaps the answer you're looking for is a better fraud detection system instead of a blanket addition of interest on debt repayments that affects the people that don't "deserve" to be punished. I hope that clears something up for you, sorry I have to talk around all the foam and drool emanating from my mouth because you're too loving keen on punishing people who break your precious rules instead of understanding the broader impact that punishment would have on the innocent and undeserving. Literally die (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 20, 2018 04:57
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