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Yeah, being thrown in the deep end humbled the hell out of me in terms of maintainability. Making every little button or field it's own component in react seemed like dramatic overkill to me before I started working on a company-sized project. Why bother with all that extra work just to display a button? I came to deeply respect the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_responsibility_principle and made an almost instant switch to preferring Functional programming. Tiny functions and components are so much better even if it takes a larger chunk of time to develop.
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Apr 19, 2018 03:49
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Grump posted:Anyone have experience joining a company that's working on a project that's already really well established and in production? Take it a piece at a time, which others have already mentioned, and ask questions when you get stuck or lost (you will, everyone expects you to, don't worry about it). I would stop reading through the code base, because you don't have anything to focus on and, as you're discovering, you'll become overwhelmed. When you get a specific problem to solve and people to give you context and direction, it won't be so bad. Also, ask a lot of questions. Did I mention ask questions? Do that.
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Apr 19, 2018 05:43
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Something I would like to emphasize, it is very important and I struggle with this too: "A learning curve is expected, you are not judged for not contributing or contributing only a little bit the first few weeks or even months." If the above is not true and you, as a junior dev, are judged negatively for not being able to pick up complex stuff after two weeks... Well, you are better off being fired anyway as in the future the expectations will only be shittier. I work as a contractor, so I am always nervous about this. However, next week I will start a new assignment at a client I worked at before and I know for a fact that some other guy there was employed as a contractor for 12 months before they decided that he did not live up to expectations. Now I must say that when he was gone, they rewrote all his stuff in three or four weeks and the teamlead confessed he should have kicked the guy out earlier.
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Apr 19, 2018 09:59
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Thanks guys that helps. At my last job, we built really small SPAs, so it was easy to spend a couple hours understanding how the code works and totally get it. So this will be a challenge
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Apr 19, 2018 13:20
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When I started, my second day was "Glad you're here! Here's some mocks to completely redesign the public facing portion of our site!". My next project was pairing up with a back end dev for three months and creating a completely new feature. A lot of the new devs we get here, it's basically "just jump in, we dont expect you to contribute right away, but we expect you to have enough knowledge to be able to start to understand it at least enough to start asking some more technical questions."
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Apr 19, 2018 20:33
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I'm not sure if anyone in this thread has had experience with coding bootcamps, but I'm halfway through the application process for two programs and I was hoping to get some input. The first, and seemingly the most promising is a Fellowship from Horizons School of Technology in SF. It seems to be a somewhat unique program, in that it's two-years rather than three-months, with the first year being learning/getting experience doing bootcamp stuff, and the second year is a mandatory paid internship as a software engineer. My understanding is that Horizons' founders have close ties with VC firms, and students are placed with start-ups by Horizons. The tuition is deferred until you get a full-time software engineering job, and is waived if you don't find a job making over $50k within six months of graduating. As you go through the program, you're given a stipend of $700-800 for rent, and after you've made decent progress you receive an additional $700-800 living stipend (they say that depending on your financial situation, you can potentially get the living stipend from the start of the program, which is something I would try to work out). This would actually be one of the very first classes for the Fellowship program, although Horizons has already been doing 3-month intensives for a year or two. Everything I've found on Reddit has been positive, but obviously the newness of the program is potentially concerning. I still have a number of questions that I'm going to ask Horizons about, but do you guys have any thoughts/suggestions/impressions? The second program is the standard 3-month bootcamp at App Academy, with deferred tuition based on whether you find a job as a developer. This one seems a lot more traditional, although App Academy seems pretty well regarded in terms of coding bootcamps. In case you didn't read my first post in this thread-- I'm 27, working in the restaurant industry, have a Bachelors in Political Science which prevents me from getting a second degree in Computer Science as a result of a quirk in California's university system where they refuse to admit second baccalaureates. I've taken two class on Python and four classes on Linux Shell Scripting at a community college in Silicon Valley, but I never made it to higher level math, so even getting an A.S. would require years of math. Thanks!
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Apr 20, 2018 00:56
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3D GAY WORLD posted:I'm not sure if anyone in this thread has had experience with coding bootcamps, but I'm halfway through the application process for two programs and I was hoping to get some input. I'm curious about the subsidized housing and fine print on the Horizons internship. Are you going to be living in a shared dormitory for a year, maybe two? If you get a better opportunity in the middle of your internship, what are the consequences of accepting it?
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Apr 20, 2018 01:13
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fantastic in plastic posted:I'm curious about the subsidized housing and fine print on the Horizons internship. Are you going to be living in a shared dormitory for a year, maybe two? If you get a better opportunity in the middle of your internship, what are the consequences of accepting it? These are definitely two questions I need to ask them directly. On their website they mention that they can provide significantly subsidized housing/dorms for their students, but what I'm not clear on is whether the $700-800 "housing stipend" actually just means that if you come live in their housing it will be subsidized by $700-800, or if they'll give you that money to pay towards rent wherever. Living in a dorm isn't an option for me, so hopefully it's the latter. As far as getting a better offer part-way through, I recall that they require a refundable partial deposit up front. If you finish the program, it just applies to the deferred tuition payment, and I'm assuming that if you just went with a different offer part-way through the paid internship, they would consider you to have found a job as a result of the first year of the program, and treat it as if you'd graduated. Who knows, they might just treat it as though you were interning at a different company, even if it's not technically an internship. I guess that all depends on what their framework is for the paid internship, and how flexible the progeam is. That's speculation though, and I'm definitely going to email them to confirm all of this. Edit: Here's a link to the bold-print details on the program I'm applying for -- https://www.joinhorizons.com/one 3D GAY WORLD fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Apr 20, 2018 |
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Apr 20, 2018 01:44
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3D GAY WORLD posted:The first, and seemingly the most promising is a Fellowship from Horizons School of Technology in SF. It seems to be a somewhat unique program, in that it's two-years rather than three-months. I'd be interested what comes after the first 3 months. Does it expand beyond JS? Tuition free and a stipend until you find a job? How long and how much will you be paying back over the course of your career? This just screams  at me.You get an internship at company A. Company A's CEO is an investor at Horizon and you then take a job at Company A. CEO is getting a huge return on you working for him as you pay back your tuition. You fall behind on your tuition payments you get fired. This is just some indentured servitude Peter Thiel wet dream.
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Apr 20, 2018 01:49
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geeves posted:I'd be interested what comes after the first 3 months. Does it expand beyond JS? Tuition free and a stipend until you find a job? How long and how much will you be paying back over the course of your career? Good input, definitely a solid possibility (even probability). Companies don't do things for the social benefit, regardless of the lip-service. It definitely sounds too good to be true on the surface, so it probably is. I might just end up going the route of the more traditional 3-month intensive, with fewer messy details. Edit: Yeah, it turns out the 2nd-year isn't really a paid internship. You just get a $18000 stipend to live on while working, so that's basically $50-60k profit that the company makes, on top of the 20% of first year income once you graduate. 3D GAY WORLD fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Apr 20, 2018 |
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Apr 20, 2018 01:56
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3D GAY WORLD posted:Good input, definitely a solid possibility (even probability). Companies don't do things for the social benefit, regardless of the lip-service. It definitely sounds too good to be true on the surface, so it probably is. I might just end up going the route of the more traditional 3-month intensive, with fewer messy details. I hope it's legit as well. But at the same time, Bootcamps just sound like ITT Tech-style schools. On the flipside, this might just be a feeder-type of system for a few dozen or more companies. "We know they're being taught A, B, and C by some really good people we trust. We are behind the scenes helping design the curriculum and tailoring it to our needs and ~75% will come out of gates swinging and I get first right of refusal and a cut of their paycheck? gently caress yeah!"
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Apr 20, 2018 02:21
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The biggest thing you can probably do is find a REAL person who has gone through that program and ask them questions, preferably on Skype where you can see their faces and what not. I find that, until you do that, all you have are reviews written on coursereport.com, random posts made by who-knows on Reddit, etc., and you're kinda taking a leap of faith. If you can actually get some (virtual) face time with a real human being who has gone through the program, they usually can answer a lot of those detailed questions in an honest way since they're likely not beholden to the company in any way, and can be frank about any short comings of the program. Likewise if they have good things to say, you'll feel much safer in that knowledge since you'll probably won't be worrying as much that they are someone being paid by the company to say nice things. There's always that possibility of course, but I think if you can find someone organically on LinkedIn who went through the program, this will be the best source of information for you. Alternatively, AppAcademy is a tried and true program at this point and loads of people have gone through it with generally positive remarks. I'm a bootcamp grad and it was an awesome decision, I think to where my life was a year ago and it's pretty incredible how things have changed.
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Apr 20, 2018 02:58
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To add in to what others have said, bootcamps can be really good (I had a good experience with the one I went to) but because they aren't accredited, it can be really easy for them to be a scam as well. You need to up and down know that the program is good, the people working there know what they are doing, and they have a plan for you to find success. In my personal opinion, I would go with an established one with a good reputation over anything that's in its first few years of working.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:03
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geeves posted:You get an internship at company A. Company A's CEO is an investor at Horizon and you then take a job at Company A. CEO is getting a huge return on you working for him as you pay back your tuition. You fall behind on your tuition payments you get fired. You don't even need the dystopian angle. I ran a company internship program which partnered with a bootcamp. We provided a 5-week internship to a few students per quarter in whatever technology we had or anticipated a need for. It was essentially a 5 week audition for working at the company. It was cheaper than what we'd have had to pay a staffing company for the number of hires we made out of it, and we had a much better idea of the interns' strengths and weaknesses than any interview process could give. If it's a year-long unpaid internship, lol. If it's a year-long paid internship, consider it in similar terms to taking a 12-month contract job. When you do the math, does the rate sound close to what you could make as a junior developer? (In SV and NYC that's a figure that will sound like an impossible amount of money if you come from a working-class or academic background.)
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Apr 20, 2018 03:15
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Shirec posted:To add in to what others have said, bootcamps can be really good (I had a good experience with the one I went to) but because they aren't accredited, it can be really easy for them to be a scam as well. You need to up and down know that the program is good, the people working there know what they are doing, and they have a plan for you to find success. Agreed, I would recommend my bootcamp, but they closed down late last year. Shirec, how's your coding challenge going?
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Apr 20, 2018 03:21
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The Dark Wind posted:The biggest thing you can probably do is find a REAL person who has gone through that program and ask them questions, preferably on Skype where you can see their faces and what not. I find that, until you do that, all you have are reviews written on coursereport.com, random posts made by who-knows on Reddit, etc., and you're kinda taking a leap of faith. It's the first year the "fellowship" program is run, as I understand, so there's no one to talk to. If I'm googling correctly then this is the school building:  Granted, a lot of startups are also run out of dilapidated SoMa warehouses with some chairs added but it seems like one hell of a leap of faith for a brand new program that wants you to commit to an open-ended loan of a non-specified sum of future income. If you're sure enough to be willing to spend two years on this, have you considered applying for an MS in CS? As a filthy euro I admit I have a weak grasp of how easy that is as a non-science major in the US, but I have co-workers who have gotten one after getting bachelor's in law and architecture, respectively, so I assume it's possible.
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Apr 20, 2018 03:47
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Slimy Hog posted:Agreed, I would recommend my bootcamp, but they closed down late last year. Good so far!  I'm a good chunk of the way through it, but I'm really having to pick and poke to get things working on the last part of the final request. I'm very much cursing my complete lack of React knowledge right now. Fortunately, I'm used to my hell boss having unreasonable requirements about not letting me use libraries, so I'm used to that particular part of the struggle. I'm also trying to figure how much I should try and go above and beyond the actual request. There are lots of other little bits I could fix up, write more tests and whatnot, but I don't want to ruin the good bits I did do with things that may be less good. 3D GAY WORLD posted:Good input, definitely a solid possibility (even probability). Companies don't do things for the social benefit, regardless of the lip-service. It definitely sounds too good to be true on the surface, so it probably is. I might just end up going the route of the more traditional 3-month intensive, with fewer messy details. Yeah I'd avoid that one. You also have no idea what the contract may entail, and it may perhaps be very easy for them to stick you in bad working conditions, and if you give guff, fire you and then you're on the hook for the full amount of tuition or something. Also think of it this way. I apparently have the danger radar of a small child and this one is giving me no vibes. Shirec fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Apr 20, 2018 |
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Apr 20, 2018 04:02
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Chemondelay posted:I got a first-round interview for a summer internship with MS. Anybody know what to expect from it? Should I start frantically revising my algorithms and data structures? For what it's worth, I'm a second-year CS student (and they know that). So I got through to the second and final round of the internship I mentioned earlier. Not sure why I'm mentioning this except as an update. I'm still waiting on details about the interview format(s), though from what I hear its four 45-minute sessions.
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Apr 20, 2018 06:15
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Xerophyte posted:If you're sure enough to be willing to spend two years on this, have you considered applying for an MS in CS? As a filthy euro I admit I have a weak grasp of how easy that is as a non-science major in the US, but I have co-workers who have gotten one after getting bachelor's in law and architecture, respectively, so I assume it's possible. There are various programs that are aimed at people with non-CS academic backgrounds, so this is possible. The only ones I'm familiar with are at elite schools, so they'll be very selective and expensive, but I assume that they're not the only ones out there.
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Apr 20, 2018 14:54
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Shirec posted:I'm also trying to figure how much I should try and go above and beyond the actual request. IMO for a coding challenge you should always be going above and beyond what is asked of you; not adding features or anything, but Boy Scouting, adding tests etc. You're trying to show people what you are brining to the table and this is your chance to do so.
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Apr 20, 2018 15:30
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Slimy Hog posted:Agreed, I would recommend my bootcamp, but they closed down late last year. I didn’t know that there were so many bootcampers in here! I know the answer to the question I’m about to ask is, “it depends,” but I’m curious if anyone had some thoughts on doing a bootcamp in, say, Austin vs. New York vs. SF. I think it’d be a networking benefit to do it where you want to work, and every place has a trade off between pay and COL, but if you could go anywhere, where would you go?
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Apr 20, 2018 15:58
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Alamoduh posted:I didn’t know that there were so many bootcampers in here! I know the answer to the question I’m about to ask is, “it depends,” but I’m curious if anyone had some thoughts on doing a bootcamp in, say, Austin vs. New York vs. SF. My good friend did a bootcamp in Austin and moved up here to Chicago and found a job as easily as any of my cohort-mates who did the same bootcamp here. I think there _is_ a bit of a networking benefit, but I'm not sure it's too important. I would say do the bootcamp where you can save the most money, then move where you want to work afterwards. It's not like you're gonna be living it up while you're in bootcamp due to the time/money commitment of going to a bootcamp.
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Apr 20, 2018 16:38
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I did mine remotely from Connecticut and landed a job in Colorado, so you can definitely make it work regardless of location.
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Apr 20, 2018 17:13
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3D GAY WORLD posted:I'm not sure if anyone in this thread has had experience with coding bootcamps, but I'm halfway through the application process for two programs and I was hoping to get some input. For what it’s worth, my wife and I both came from non-CS backgrounds, studied Python on our own, graduated from App Academy, and were making good money in the Bay Area almost right away. Not all of our fellow graduates did so well, but the ones who worked hard did. It’s a tough as nails three months but in terms of improving my life situation, it was the most impactful decision I ever made. I heard it’s getting a little harder these days (I was in the July 2016 cohort) but I think I would do it again over a two-year program.
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Apr 20, 2018 17:18
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dantheman650 posted:Not all of our fellow graduates did so well, but the ones who worked hard did. I think this is key for anyone attending a bootcamp, it's just like any kind of study: you get out what you put in. Work your rear end off and try things outside of the curriculum and you will do well. As for bootcamps that are still in business, I know someone who recently finished FullStack academy and they recommend it FWIW.
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Apr 20, 2018 17:22
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Slimy Hog posted:IMO for a coding challenge you should always be going above and beyond what is asked of you; not adding features or anything, but Boy Scouting, adding tests etc. You're trying to show people what you are brining to the table and this is your chance to do so. Blugh, so I sent it in this morning. I ended up pulling an all-nighter (expressly against what the challenge asked me to do) because I had to spend so long figuring how to get React to do what I wanted. I ended up not finishing it 100%, more like 90%, but I was so mentally spent that I knew I had to draw the line. Ugh, hopefully this doesn't entirely put me out of the running. I'm trying to be upbeat, because the instructions did say it was ok and they know I'm very junior and have no React experience, but I'm honestly expecting to be rejected now. Slimy Hog posted:I think this is key for anyone attending a bootcamp, it's just like any kind of study: you get out what you put in. Work your rear end off and try things outside of the curriculum and you will do well. 100% working hard makes the difference. I did a remote bootcamp because I was in the South at the time (bloc if you're curious) and I saw a lot of people skating by and thinking that by paying, they would just magic a job out of thin air. edit: I am now in full expecting a rejection mode. I'd try and get some sleep but the anxiety would/has kept me awake Shirec fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Apr 20, 2018 |
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Apr 20, 2018 17:54
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Thanks a lot for all the advice and input on bootcamps, I'm glad I posted about it. I've decided to go the route of AppAcademy's 3-month program fored, plus the reasons you all posted, plus the fact that I can figure out a way to survive for 3-months while I code 14-16 hours a day (apparently), while a year is less managable. Also, I'd be able to get into the industry (or at least applying) a lot sooner. I think the idea of a guaranteed internship might be a deceptively "safe" bet as opposed to a 3-month bootcamp. Given that any bootcamp/program (or any education, really) is, at its core, a bet on ones self, I feel confident that I'll have the drive that it takes to work my rear end off and become hireable.
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Apr 20, 2018 20:45
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Shirec posted:It's amazing how many job openings I see that are not listed as senior but want 6-7+ years of experience. That level of experience would qualify for that realm, yes? I might be a bit old school when it comes to titles, but I wouldn't think senior until 7-10 years of experience. This isn't High School or University that 4-5 years automagically makes you senior. In addition, until you can lead a team, manage multiple projects on your own including the full life cycle with little-to-no oversight and can burden that responsibility and manage company expectations, you're not senior. I may be biased in my thoughts, but I've seen too many "senior" engineers gently caress things up.
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Apr 21, 2018 01:39
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Titles are weird. At my company senior is under lead, is under principle.
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Apr 21, 2018 04:11
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geeves posted:I might be a bit old school when it comes to titles, but I wouldn't think senior until 7-10 years of experience. This isn't High School or University that 4-5 years automagically makes you senior. At our company, most of this falls under project manager territory. The engineering leads take responsibility for the team, and then Dole out tasks to those team members. But the tasks they're given to complete are given by the project manager. The oversight largely comes from not being called out for talking about the same ticket five days in a row at stand up meetings. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, just that at my company by your definition no one is senior. How does the chain of responsibility work at your company? Genuinely curious
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Apr 22, 2018 07:58
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geeves posted:I might be a bit old school when it comes to titles, but I wouldn't think senior until 7-10 years of experience. This isn't High School or University that 4-5 years automagically makes you senior. I think as a general rule your numbers make sense, but you also have to be able to consider exceptions. Someone who's been through a good few projects with a wide range of systems etc could theoretically be totally capable after 5 years.
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Apr 22, 2018 09:28
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I've been teaching myself SQL lately using sites like HackerRank and I've got two notable gaps in my understanding. The first is I have no idea how to test SQL commands and set acceptance criteria beyond checking the happy path. When I write a new loop or algorithm I always check the boundary conditions and then some value in the middle. For a loop over any kind of list you check behavior with an empty list, list with 1 item, 2 items, something like 10 items, and then maybe some large number of items close to what you expect to see in real use. What's the equivalent I should be keeping in mind when writing and reading SQL? I also don't have good tools for thinking about which of two queries is more efficient. For example, if I need information from table A & B, what should I be thinking about to decide between FROM A JOIN B or FROM B JOIN A? I know SQL tries to select optimal implementations of its declarative commands and every flavor does this a bit differently. What would be a good site or book to read to learn more about how to make more efficient SQL queries?
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Apr 22, 2018 10:38
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SQL query optimization is generally pretty dependent on the engine being used since storage/index strategies will affect query performance, etc etc. If you're a developer just writing queries, and not particularly concerned with engine optimization/configuration, then the best single guide is probably: https://use-the-index-luke.com/ You should also be able to read and understand the EXPLAIN output of a query for your DBMS to check for obvious problems (high costs, full table scans without indexes, etc). EXPLAIN docs for pgsql: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/using-explain.html (also, SELECT DISTINCT is a code smell but just might mean you have lovely data problems.)
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Apr 22, 2018 12:07
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LLSix posted:I've been teaching myself SQL lately using sites like HackerRank and I've got two notable gaps in my understanding. I thought A JOIN B is performance equivalent to B JOIN A in sql server? Edit assuming identical join clauses
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Apr 22, 2018 20:49
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geeves posted:I might be a bit old school when it comes to titles, but I wouldn't think senior until 7-10 years of experience. This isn't High School or University that 4-5 years automagically makes you senior. I think this is conflating a couple things. There's seniority in terms of years of experience, and then there's seniority in terms of job function. There are plenty of people who've been programming for much longer than 7-10 years who don't have the experience necessary to be a senior engineer in the latter sense, and there's a much smaller number of people who are acting as senior engineers despite not having that many years under their belt. I would prefer that the term senior engineer be reserved for the second sense, but I think that battle's been lost a long time ago. Vincent Valentine posted:At our company, most of this falls under project manager territory. The engineering leads take responsibility for the team, and then Dole out tasks to those team members. But the tasks they're given to complete are given by the project manager. The oversight largely comes from not being called out for talking about the same ticket five days in a row at stand up meetings. There are plenty of companies that don't have roles for senior engineers. You may be working for one. If you stay too long, that will limit your career growth in the long run.
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Apr 23, 2018 00:10
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For all the talk it gets has anyone here actually been asked to buzz a fizz in an interview? (Sorry-not-sorry to bring this topic back up but someone mentioned it here last week and on the weekend my friend showed me an absolutely brilliant/disgusting JavaScript fizz buzz he wrote that contains neither 'fizz' nor 'buzz' literals by abusing base 36 toString)
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Apr 23, 2018 00:50
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Cirofren posted:For all the talk it gets has anyone here actually been asked to buzz a fizz in an interview? I've filtered out a lot of candidates this way, which I lose no sleep over whatsoever. A lot of those filtered out are Java programmers that claim they know C/C++, but actually don't. They can fizzbuzz, usually, but the pointer stuff in strcpy() just completely blindsides them. I even ask for just a straightforward explanation of how a strcpy() implementation would work, and they can't get it. The embedded world just isn't meant for everyone, I suppose. 
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Apr 23, 2018 01:13
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Cirofren posted:For all the talk it gets has anyone here actually been asked to buzz a fizz in an interview? Nah not that specifically but I've been tested on coding. I've interviewed only a few times though, somehow I've been exceptionally lucky and I have been offered every job I interviewed for so I've not had to do many.
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Apr 23, 2018 10:40
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Yeah I've had take home assignments and in office "here's a spec and a laptop, see what you can do in an hour" things. Never seen the fizz though, or prime numbers, or reverse a string. It's always been far closer to actual work. Getting to the point where I wouldn't mind a stupid whiteboard question to mix it up.
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Apr 23, 2018 11:03
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hendersa posted:I've filtered out a lot of candidates this way, which I lose no sleep over whatsoever. A lot of those filtered out are Java programmers that claim they know C/C++, but actually don't. They can fizzbuzz, usually, but the pointer stuff in strcpy() just completely blindsides them. I even ask for just a straightforward explanation of how a strcpy() implementation would work, and they can't get it. Yeah, either pointers or memory management tend to be iffy for people who've come to C/C++ from Java or C# with an attitude of 'Hey the syntax looks similar, how different can they be?'. Asking how to tell whether they're on a little or big endian machine is another good one. I have been Fizzbuzz'd, but only once, and by someone who didn't have that much experience interviewing tech people I think. Meanwhile my GitHub has my pet project of a compiler for my own language on it, and one of the regression tests is an implementation of Fizzbuzz, so I can always point interviewers at that I guess
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Apr 23, 2018 11:21
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