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sassassin posted:They let him go so they could find the rebel base. That's not the scene I'm talking about. SuperMechagodzilla posted:He doesn't outrun it. He hides from it. That's also not the scene I'm talking about. I mean the one where he successfully leaves Tatooine and gets his passengers to the ruins of Alderaan.
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Apr 22, 2018 02:08
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Bongo Bill posted:I mean the one where he successfully leaves Tatooine and gets his passengers to the ruins of Alderaan. Yeah, the scene where they jump into hyperspace to hide - specifically because they’re not fast enough to escape otherwise. If they were simply outrunning the Imperials, the Imperial ship would have caught up with them shortly after they reached Alderaan.
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Apr 22, 2018 03:43
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Run away into Our tractor beam Han didn’t get anywhere
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Apr 22, 2018 03:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Yeah, the scene where they jump into hyperspace to hide - specifically because they’re not fast enough to escape otherwise. Ah, yes, clearly they were outrunning them, instead of outrunning them, yes I see now
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Apr 22, 2018 04:54
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Bleck posted:Ah, yes, clearly they were outrunning them, instead of outrunning them, yes I see now Is hyperspace really about moving fast? I thought it was like slipping into another dimension.
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Apr 22, 2018 05:07
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The MSJ posted:Is hyperspace really about moving fast? I thought it was like slipping into another dimension. Right; they jumped in a hole. A meerkat is not faster than a cheetah, even though the meerkat can hide in a burrow.
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Apr 22, 2018 05:57
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Han literally says "I told you I'd outrun em'" in the movie.
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Apr 22, 2018 07:00
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And the Star Destroyers were literally about to catch him if he hadn't gone to hyperspace. If jumping to hyperspace means outrunning, then any ship short of TIEs can outrun Imperial ships. Which makes Han's bragging even weirder, I guess.
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Apr 22, 2018 07:06
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Milky Moor posted:And the Star Destroyers were literally about to catch him if he hadn't gone to hyperspace. If jumping to hyperspace means outrunning, then any ship short of TIEs can outrun Imperial ships. It would also make the tracking in hyperspace stuff from TLJ make no sense at all but having said that I feel gross for using the weapon of canonicity even against its priests
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Apr 22, 2018 07:10
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the 'tracking in hyperspace' thing is New and Cuh-Razy technology that the first order are using for the first time, if i remember the exposition correctly this may or may not be related to the part where the rebels can hyperspace into said ship when that hasn't been done before either (maybe the tracking technology prevents them from using whatever everybody else does that stops hyperspace ramming from being a thing)
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Apr 22, 2018 07:32
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galagazombie posted:Han literally says "I told you I'd outrun em'" in the movie. He says that after failing to outrun them, because he’s full of poo poo: “Why don’t you outrun them? I thought you said this thing was fast!” Han has no response to being called out. He instead plans to use his maneuverability - rather than his speed - to stall for time while they figure out how to hide. “We'll be safe enough once we make the jump to hyperspace. Besides, I know a few maneuvers. We'll lose 'em.” Luke is incredulous, because the truck is moving very slowly. The Imperial ships are effortlessly outrunning it: “Are you kidding? At the rate they're gaining?!” Han’s truck is significantly slower than an Imperial ship. That is why he loses his cargo. He’s lying. Consider it a literacy test: is Obiwan really good at killing Sith Lords because he says “Sith Lords are our speciality!”? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Apr 22, 2018 |
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Apr 22, 2018 07:40
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Consider it a literacy test: is Obiwan really good at killing Sith Lords because he says “Sith Lords are our speciality!”? Obi-Wan and Anakin are each shown defeating more Sith Lords than every other character put together. And despite what Luke says in that scene, Han still gets away from his pursuers. My only intention here is to acknowledge that there is irony happening in these scenes. The audience is made to doubt a character by seeing them express unjustified confidence, so that later it comes as more of a surprise when they succeed. Han in particular is constantly obviously in over his head and is often about to gently caress up or actively in the process of loving up, but he is rarely depicted failing, with the consequence that many of his boasts end up factual in retrospect (at least "from a certain point of view"). I mention this because if the forthcoming spin-off movie about his youth is consistent with this quality, it will probably demonstrate that his bullshit sentences about the Kessel Run are entirely truthful, contrary to the predictions of some posters in this thread. (I'm pretty sure that's how we got on this topic.) Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Apr 22, 2018 |
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Apr 22, 2018 07:59
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Bongo Bill posted:Obi-Wan and Anakin are each shown defeating more Sith Lords than every other character put together. ??????
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Apr 22, 2018 08:02
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Milky Moor posted:?????? Anakin definitely kills a lot of force users, but I'm not sure "sith lords" is the right term.
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Apr 22, 2018 08:06
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They each have one Sith Lord kill. Anakin technically has 2 but there's a 25 year gap between the 2. Given that there are never more than 2 running around at a time that's still a pretty good rate.
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Apr 22, 2018 08:16
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Bongo Bill posted:he is rarely depicted failing, with the consequence that many of his boasts end up factual in retrospect. Han’s boasts are not factual in retrospect. His ship is objectively not fast. He escapes using trickery. If Han said that he knew how to outmaneuver the faster ships, that would be a bit more factual - but it would still be a lie by omission. He has a significant failure rate. (Even the part about reaching ‘point 5 past lightspeed’ in hyperspace is suspect; the ship only ever ‘jumps to lightspeed’.) There is no ‘dramatic irony’ where the ship accidentally becomes the fastest ship in the universe, surprising everyone. It’s just slow.
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Apr 22, 2018 08:33
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the irony is that sith lords are their speciality because they're protecting said sith lord from harm
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Apr 22, 2018 08:34
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Pops Mgee posted:They each have one Sith Lord kill. Anakin technically has 2 but there's a 25 year gap between the 2. Given that there are never more than 2 running around at a time that's still a pretty good rate. I think when Obi Wan said that the only kill they have between them is Maul, an apprentice.
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Apr 22, 2018 08:37
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Anakin and Obi-Wan have actually been doing freelance police work inbetween missions. They hunt down members of a vicious deathstick drug gang that call themselves the “Sith Lordz”. Between the two of them, they’ve executed over 200 Sith Lordz lieutenants and soldiers. Little do they know that Paul Saltines is the Don of the Sith Lordz and he needed to recruit Vader to replace his most trusted underboss.
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Apr 22, 2018 09:17
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Star Wars has just been Space Godfather this whole time, folks. Right down to Order 66 that killed the Jedi like Sonny at the tollbooth.
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Apr 22, 2018 09:21
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Milky Moor posted:?????? By the end, Obi-Wan killed Darth Maul and dismembered Darth Vader, and Anakin killed Darth Tyranus and Darth Sidious. Of course, none of this is true at the time he says it. But in all the other films there's really only two who've been killed in battle - Darth Vader and Snoke - who of course were killed by different people. If anybody has a claim to saying that they specialize in Sith Lords, it's Obi-Wan and Anakin.
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Apr 22, 2018 10:41
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Seeing how dealing with Sith lords was one of the reasons the Jedi order was formed, "Sith Lords are our specialty" seems like a statement that's more generally true for all Jedi. Kit Fisto could have said it and it would have been just as true. Also, are parsecs human?
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Apr 22, 2018 10:56
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Han’s boasts are not factual in retrospect. His ship is objectively not fast. He escapes using trickery. I think you're making some unnecessary assumptions about how fictional space travel works. Let's instead focus on what's actually depicted. (I assume you're just talking about A New Hope, which doesn't contain more credible characters praising the ship's speed.) What we see is that Luke and Obi-Wan ask Han why the Millennium Falcon isn't going fast, and then Han says it'll take a few moments, and then a few moments later it starts going extremely fast, with a memorable special effect used only once in that film followed by a shot of the ship rapidly receding into the distance. After this, they've escaped their pursuers and are en route to their destination. You're suggesting that "mak[ing] the jump to lightspeed" is meant to be understood as a trick that doesn't involve being fast, despite both the language and the imagery associated with it.
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Apr 22, 2018 11:07
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So then every ship with a hyperdrive can outrun Imperial starships? Weird thing to boast about.
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Apr 22, 2018 11:15
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There are different classes of hyperdrives, some of which are faster than others.
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Apr 22, 2018 12:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Han Solo: Hello friend Luke Skylarker, I am a former prince of planet Nigerion. I am glad to announce your transfer of Republic Credits $1000000.00. You pay only the basic upload fee of Eight Hundred Illegal Hutt Moneys, and I will give you 21% of total funds. I cannot access the Credits myself because I am deposed. This is an official Bank Message. God bless you. SuperMechagodzilla posted:WOOKIEEPEDIA
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Apr 22, 2018 12:25
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Yeah I've always assumed it was trivial to track someone's destination when entering hyperspace (at least for the first jump, just have your computer calculate their, well.. direction), but the falcon had a very fast hyperdrive. So when Han talks about losing them once they make the jump its that he knows at hyperspace speeds he can outrun imperial ships (not just the local bulk cruisers). This seems consistent with everything shown on screen, otherwise, yeah every piece of crap can outrun every ship which would make the entire beginning of the whole series make no sense. The blockade runner in the opening seconds clearly wasn't fast enough to outrun imperial ships as the star destroyer was right on its rear end the moment its in the tatooine system. Last Jedi's tracking stuff obviously doesn't apply since it really has no bearing on movies made 40 years ago by completely different people. It's not even consistent with the ending of the last film made, since the dramatic escape of the tantive IV was easily tracked.
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Apr 22, 2018 12:27
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TLJ makes you wonder how that Star Destroyer ever managed to catch up to that blockade runner in ANH.
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Apr 22, 2018 12:30
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Grendels Dad posted:TLJ makes you wonder how that Star Destroyer ever managed to catch up to that blockade runner in ANH. Something along the “Calculate every possible destination along their last known trajectory” play plus Star Destroyers having a better hyperdrive than the blockade runner?
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Apr 22, 2018 12:54
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I guess the institutional knowledge of how to track hyperspace trajectories was lost to the first order
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Apr 22, 2018 14:59
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:(Even the part about reaching ‘point 5 past lightspeed’ in hyperspace is suspect; the ship only ever ‘jumps to lightspeed’.) SMG you're usually pretty good but this is some jivjov-tier bullshit.
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Apr 22, 2018 17:17
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:SMG you're usually pretty good but this is some jivjov-tier bullshit. ...I have my own tier now?
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Apr 22, 2018 17:25
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Being able to calculate someone's trajectory wouldn't help a ton because they cover so much ground in hyperspace that you could drop out at any point along your path and basically disappear because there's so much space you could be in along that path.
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Apr 22, 2018 17:38
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How do the laser swords know when to stop coming out of the handle?
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Apr 22, 2018 17:45
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jivjov posted:...I have my own tier now? All by your lonesome. Top tier.
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Apr 22, 2018 17:57
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business hammocks posted:How do the laser swords know when to stop coming out of the handle? It's an arc, obviously.
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Apr 22, 2018 18:21
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Tom Guycot posted:This seems consistent with everything shown on screen, otherwise, yeah every piece of crap can outrun every ship which would make the entire beginning of the whole series make no sense. Time and again, it’s shown that Star Wars fans misunderstand even the most basic events of the films. You must unlearn what you have learned from Wookieepedia. ‘Jumping to hyperspace’ takes a long time to prepare, and requires that you be very clear of obstacles. That’s why Han spends a bunch of time getting clear of Tatooine. Imperial ships use their superior speed to hunt down and disable ships before they can jump. That’s what’s happening in the opening scene: the rebels are trying to hold off the Imperial ship long enough to jump, but the Imperials disable their main reactor before they can do that. It’s repeatedly emphasized that this is a typical confrontation. Imperials are extremely good at outrunning and capturing ships, leaving the victims with no choice but to jettison their cargo and hope for the best. That’s why the Imperials on the Death Star are unsurprised when the Falcon arrives empty, missing its escape pods. Han is specifically boasting that his ship is fast enough to avoid this outcome. It’s not. The Millenium Falcon is big and slow enough to be classified as a freighter - a type of big, clunky boat known for being big and slow. Han has evidently done “some modifications” to make it faster than a normal freighter, but that’s still slow. It’s not a supersonic fighter jet; it’s got a fuckin lounge area. Han is not a supergenius inventor capable of turning the boat from Captain Phillips into a time machine. He’s lying. Like, let’s do some maths here. Greedo says that the Falcon is worth less than 10,000 space dollars; since Han doesn’t have Jabba’s money, Jabba might settle for just taking the Falcon. Maybe 10,000 space bucks is a massive, unprecedented amount of money? Maybe Han is just that badly in debt? Nope; 10,000 isn’t even enough to buy the worst available ship: “10,000? We could almost buy our own ship for that!” Q: Why is this one-of-a-kind, fastest ship in the universe worth so little? A: Because it’s not the fastest ship in the universe. Han is lying. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Apr 22, 2018 |
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Apr 22, 2018 18:44
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
This makes a lot of assumptions based on nothing in the films though. There could be a dozen reason why Greedo would say that, anything from Jabba doesn't really want to gently caress around with bartering some idiots ship, to Greedo just trying to piss off Han. Saying the value of this ship is less than 10,000 is pure speculation. Also the speed everyone is referring to (and several people beyond Han also confirm the ship is fast, its not just Han) has to be related, especially in the original film, to hyperspace speed. If it didn't, Obi Wan wouldn't have been so insistent that the ship they get is a fast ship. After all, the only reason they even had to outrun the star destroyer in sub light was because they accidentally got followed and sold out which wasn't something that they should have expected. If the falcon *was* slow, and it still got away from a star destroyer so easily, then clearly having a fast ship doesn't matter for squat, and Obi Wan would be experienced enough to know the slowest of freighters would be enough. He doesn't act that way though, he very specifically wants a fast ship which realistically has to at least be referring to the hyperspace speed as well. Han is a braggart, and con man, but it takes willfully ignoring whats on screen to decide that its not a fast ship in at least some way. EDIT: The other thing I think needs to be remembered is who this all came from. George Lucas always had an interest in hot rods, kids souping up their old jalopies to burn rubber. I think the falcon, with its constant references to being a piece of junk thats been modded to be fast even as its falling apart and needing constant work, is directly inspired by this love of Lucas. If its just a piece of junk thats also slow as junk, it doesn't make any sense from that perspective, not to mention why people who aren't Han also lie about the ship's speed. Clearly the ship isn't super fast in sub light, we can see that on film with TIE fighter catching and passing it, so this speed of the falcon must rest with its hyperspace capabilities. Tom Guycot fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Apr 22, 2018 |
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Apr 22, 2018 19:02
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"She may not look like much but she's got it where it counts, kid." This is a running joke in the movie--the Falcon looks like a piece of poo poo but there really is more than meets than eye (like Han). At the end of the film, Star Wars (1977), the Falcon does a perpendicular attack on the Death Star trench which, according to what we see in the movie, is so difficult the rebels decided they were better off flying down the trench itself. And then he shoots down the best star pilot in the galaxy.
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Apr 22, 2018 19:12
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It's clear that everyone but Han and Lando thinks it sucks - and yet, it keeps running blockades and escaping Star Destroyers. There's a theme here about deceiving appearances. The Millennium Falcon is Han himself: a total piece of garbage, but, it turns out, nevertheless "[has] got it where it counts." Like the escaped slave that looks like a trash can being important, like the diplomat being a rebel, like the crazy hermit being a knight, like the attack on the sandcrawler being a false flag op - your eyes can deceive you; don't trust them. Use the Force, trust your feelings, etc. Remember, the ship is a living thing - after weeks of everybody assuming they know what's wrong with its hyperdrive, R2 (fresh from listening in on Jedi lessons about luminous beings) fixes it with one twist of a space wrench after taking the time to communicate with it directly. If it reaches its destination rapidly (by one of any number of No-Prize applications about how hyperspace works), even if there are misadventures in the process, then Han's esteem for it has some basis in truth.
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Apr 22, 2018 19:15
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