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FCKGW posted:housing_problems.txt The article says the homeowner next door pays $1K per MONTH in property taxes. On a normal suburban home, that she paid $775K for. Why do people continue to want to live there, again?
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Apr 20, 2018 17:14
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FCKGW posted:housing_problems.txt Prop 13!
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Apr 20, 2018 17:16
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Darchangel posted:The article says the homeowner next door pays $1K per MONTH in property taxes. On a normal suburban home, that she paid $775K for. So, she's paying about 1.5% taxes, which is completely normal and standard and she would have known about that tax rate at the time of purchase. People want to live here because two adults with bachelors' degrees in anything technical can bring home a total of $200k+ annually. Plus the weather is excellent, it's a center of culture and art and music, your'e a 4 hour drive from skiing or your pick of a half-dozen world-class national parks, or one hour (from Fremont) to Santa Cruz and world class surfing options, and the state isn't run by hyper-conservative CHUDs. It's way too expensive, no denying that, but the cost is directly driven by the demand, and the demand is there because of the combination of high-paying jobs and high standard of living (if you can afford it). $750k is also well above the "standard normal" suburban home price around here. That property is going for a lot because it is on a hill and has a bay view and Fremont is a reasonably safe and nice city on the BART line with a reasonable commute to San Jose/Mountain View/Cupertino etc. You can still buy a house in the bay area for under $500k. My house in Concord is probably worth around $450k if I put $30k into fixing it up prior to sale, and it's a 1200ft2 3b/2b with a 2 car garage and a decent yard front and back. crazypeltast52 posted:Prop 13! That's unquestionably one half of the problem. The other is the NIMBY epidemic that has gripped the region for 40+ years. Demand has outstripped supply for decades, and prices are still, generally, set by price and demand. We've greatly increased new and infill construction in the last few years, but it's nowhere near enough to keep up with even current rising demand, let alone the 40+ year backlog. Instead of new 4000 square foot detatched houses, we need to be building 20-story apartment blocks absolutely everywhere, and gently caress your view and your parking worries and your hand-wringing about the poors coming to your neighborhood. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Apr 20, 2018 |
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Apr 20, 2018 17:38
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Leperflesh posted:Instead of new 4000 square foot detatched houses, we need to be building 20-story apartment blocks absolutely everywhere, and gently caress your view and your parking worries and your hand-wringing about the poors coming to your neighborhood. That's exactly what London did, and it worked perfectly. No wait, the other thing, it was a disaster. Every building is full of "luxury" apartments that start at £300k for a 1 bed 1 bath. Even the laws around new builds containing a certain number of "affordable housing" units don't really work. They make them as small as possible and in one building they actually went so far as to install a separate lift and entrance so the bankers don't have to see the poors in the lobby. Where "poor" means they got government assistance to take a 5% down mortgage so they're leveraged out the rear end if/when the bubble pops. Though it won't because you can just keep building faster trains.
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Apr 20, 2018 18:18
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You can build your way out of rent problems but not ownership problems. Rents are very closely tied to local incomes and supply and demand and work something close to a capitalists simplistic idea of how markets work. But for realestate it's not so simple, because for many people buying a house/condo is more of financial investment than a basic need for housing. This happens in desirable places with a ton of foreign capital flowing in, you build more and more housing hoping to sate the demand, but the demand isn't local, it isn't even based on local economics, you have the entire world viewing your realestate market much like a stock market. If you under-build though this doesn't help either, because the rich class of people buying housing as an investment are always going to outbid the people buying housing as a roof over their heads. Places that have made progress on getting a handle on their housing costs have done it by making their market less attractive as a financial investment, speculation tax, foreign ownership taxes or outright bans, and eliminating various tax breaks and handouts that make ownership a good financial investment. The problem though is that you have tons of locals who went into insane debt to buy, thinking prices will go up forever and the moment they stop, they're hosed. Any politician who actually does anything to fix housing prices will be wiping out a lot of voters finances, so it becomes in everyone's interests to keep the market hot. Politicians then get stuck between people who have been totally priced out of the market yelling that 800k for a 1 bedroom condo is ridiculous and the government needs to get the situation under control, and the thousands of people who are drowning in debt after buying a 800k condo demanding the government not do anything that will stop that condo being worth a million in a couple years because they're banking their financial survival on it. Then you have developers swooping in saying if you just let us build more towers we'll solve everything without hurting anyone existing equity, how about the government just make it easier for people to get mortgages or something?? The key is to not let a bubble happen in the first place because once it has it's very difficult to stop. Well it's easy to stop, but it will piss off too many people that have tied their horse to the bubble going on forever.
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Apr 20, 2018 18:31
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Darchangel posted:The article says the homeowner next door pays $1K per MONTH in property taxes. On a normal suburban home, that she paid $775K for. California is just about the middle of the road for property tax rates in the country.
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Apr 20, 2018 18:52
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Prop 13 is a unique thing that is, as I mentioned, the other half of the equation. It's a huge disincentive to sell, which puts an additional brake onto the so-called "natural" level of liquidity that there should be in the housing market. Another issue is the geography of the bay area, which prevents it from sprawling in the same way as, say, Phoenix. London is not really comparable for a bunch of reasons, including not just the differences in the legal and financial systems, but also the european-style public transport networks, which make living 100 miles from London while working in the city much more viable than it is in most American cities. So I agree, there are numerous factors at play that mean that only slapping up more and more housing is not a cure for the problem. But failing to produce enough units is a 100% guarantee of a problem, and that's where we're at right now. The dearth of units is enormous. That single factor just obliterates all other factors. You could do universal rent control, repeal prop 13, implement a huge vacancy tax, etc. and you'd barely make a dent, because there's something like a (very guestimating here) million-unit accumulated shortage in the SF bay area. Per Wikipedia (yes I know, but this is sourced): quote:For example, from 2012 to 2017, the San Francisco metropolitan area added 400,000 new jobs, but only 60,000 new housing units. If you assume two jobs per unit, that's a shortage of 140,000 units, in just five years. You can either eliminate jobs, or you can build more housing, but you can't get prices to drop if you don't do one or both. Period. Taxes, zoning, incentives, etc. all make a difference, but the raw power behind that kind of imbalance is inexorable. We needed 140,000 more units just to tread water, which is to say, just to experience moderate increases in housing prices due to increases in average income, attrition of existing units, and the interest of speculators. If we want to actually reverse the trend of rising house prices, we need to probably double or triple that rate. We should be planning to add 500k+ units to the bay area in the next ten years, if we want to actually lower home prices and rents without eliminating job growth.
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Apr 20, 2018 18:53
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Borrow old musky's boring machine and start selling vault homes, at those prices it must be profitable.
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Apr 20, 2018 19:59
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cakesmith handyman posted:Borrow old musky's boring machine and start selling vault homes, at those prices it must be profitable. I'm sorry I think you mean climate-controlled eco-homes with a fully finished basement.
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Apr 20, 2018 20:13
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Jaded Burnout posted:I'm sorry I think you mean climate-controlled eco-homes with a fully finished basement.
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Apr 20, 2018 21:34
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No need for sleep cycles with this much radon in the air!
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Apr 20, 2018 21:36
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Mountain view is finally tearing down old lots and building huge garden mazes of townhouses. They're a little better than the 1-story strip malls full of dead leaves, but those >$1 million townhouses are designed for adult roommates, not families based on the in-suite bathrooms. Tfw I wish we bought a unit in the hideous 80's apartment complexes fifteen years ago 
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Apr 21, 2018 00:24
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Hah, while moving my TV stand from one side of the room to the other, I got zapped by the screw on the outlet cover. At the same time, the fan plugged into the switched outlet on the other side of the room (and allegedly on a separate circuit) spun up for half a second. This, maybe coincidentally, was the only time I have had the fan switch turned to full speed (I usually have it on the lowest setting, and it's a shaded pole motor inside). I went to turn off the breaker to investigate, but I had to turn off TWO breakers to disable the outlet. What. Here's an artist's representation of what I found when I opened it up:  (And also the entire thing was wrapped in like ten wraps of electrical tape) With one of the breakers on, the box was hot  . I put a meter on everything and mapped it out. I don't know what chucklefuck messed with this last, but both white/neutral wires that were in the wire nut were just fine. There was a bridge from the ground lug to the neutral side. The hot side wires were on separate circuits, which maybe explains the removed bridging tab. I fixed it, checking the grounds, and reassembled. I also used the meter to test the rest of the outlets on both circuits, in case there were any lasting shenanigans. I'm happy to report that the rest of the outlets now test fine, and the fan across the room no longer turns on when you put a capacitive load on an outlet in-circuit 
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Apr 23, 2018 00:53
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I'm amazed your building didn't burn down before you got there.
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Apr 23, 2018 05:42
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The Locator posted:I'm amazed your building didn't burn down before you got there. It is a literal goddamn miracle and testament to good fire codes that we don't see five alarm tenement fires in every major city a few times a year anymore.
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Apr 23, 2018 06:15
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Hmm.
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Apr 23, 2018 16:38
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GreenNight posted:Hmm. I'd be very upset climbing those stairs only to see that bar sitting in front of me.
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Apr 23, 2018 16:58
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poemdexter posted:I'd be very upset climbing those stairs only to see that bar sitting in front of me. Surprise limbo!
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Apr 23, 2018 17:00
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RoboRodent posted:Surprise limbo! Either that or hop over it. There's no way I'm walking back down and then up again.
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Apr 23, 2018 17:03
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poemdexter posted:I'd be very upset climbing those stairs only to see that bar sitting in front of me. I don't know, seems like it would be a good joke setup.
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Apr 23, 2018 17:09
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duz posted:I don't know, seems like it would be a good joke setup. It's been done.
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Apr 23, 2018 17:20
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:Hah, while moving my TV stand from one side of the room to the other, I got zapped by the screw on the outlet cover. At the same time, the fan plugged into the switched outlet on the other side of the room (and allegedly on a separate circuit) spun up for half a second. This, maybe coincidentally, was the only time I have had the fan switch turned to full speed (I usually have it on the lowest setting, and it's a shaded pole motor inside). That’s so bizarre and maybe someone can explain to me why that happened. Was something plugged in at the time? Why would the screw be electrified if not? Was one of the hot wires shorted in the box? Wouldn’t that have flipped the breaker?
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Apr 23, 2018 17:23
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The anti-American toilet.
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Apr 23, 2018 17:27
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I've had this recurring dream and I still don't know what it means.
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Apr 23, 2018 17:28
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:Hah, while moving my TV stand from one side of the room to the other, I got zapped by the screw on the outlet cover. At the same time, the fan plugged into the switched outlet on the other side of the room (and allegedly on a separate circuit) spun up for half a second. This, maybe coincidentally, was the only time I have had the fan switch turned to full speed (I usually have it on the lowest setting, and it's a shaded pole motor inside). Does this give you double the voltage, double the fun, for bitcoin miners?
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Apr 23, 2018 18:48
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NOT including capping the white common/neutral wires, the "running the ground wires to the neutral side" was standard procedure in, like, century-old houses without grounds where you're retrofitting three-prong outlets into old boxes. However, the boxes here are metal and are grounded AFAIK, from my outlet tester and mapping them out with a multimeter to the pipes. Running two circuits to one box is also 100% against code for a residence like this, and I was half-expecting one of the two hots in the box to be from the neighbor or something for electricity theft or something. As to why the fan spun up when I got zapped? IDK. However, the outlet the fan is on is all fucky, and I've posted about it before in this thread. Why didn't the breaker trip when anything was run on that outlet? I don't know. However, the breaker box is a 40-year-old GE, with scorch or heat marks on the inside of the door that line up with the one GFI breaker. The circuits are also all over the loving place. The GFI circuit, for example, is the bathroom outlet and kitchen light, but not the bathroom light or kitchen sink outlet. Another circuit is the entire bedroom minus one outlet in the middle of the run, and also the kitchen outlet. It's drat near random. The regular, 15A outlet that runs the in-wall AC (it has a standard 15A plug on it) is run by 2x20A breakers tied with a bar. No tag or sideways blade or anything. The other set of 2x20A runs the stove, which makes sense. This place is going to loving burn down, isn't it? Queen_Combat fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Apr 23, 2018 |
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Apr 23, 2018 19:02
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I repair some old as gently caress manufacturing equipment and older wiring shenanigans often have neutral to ground if for some odd reason you cant wire back to the terminal strip with neutral. It's a known and accepted thing with certain old models that touching the housing and accidentally grounding yourself will shock you pretty good with 110.
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Apr 23, 2018 19:07
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I think this is a homeowner trying to sue the builder after the home warranty that came with purchase expired and the place is still lovely. But it's Philly so who the hell knows.
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Apr 23, 2018 19:49
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:Running two circuits to one box is also 100% against code for a residence like this, Do you have a reference for this one? It appears to be fine as long as the two breakers are tied together for safety, and even that wasn’t always the case. I gotta say though that place is pretty hosed up.
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Apr 23, 2018 21:25
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Yeah, if they're tied together (acting as one), that's one thing. From NEC 2011 (the last reference I used from working with my electrician dad years ago): code:*I could be way off on these numbers
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Apr 23, 2018 21:35
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Right, I just wanted to address that it’s not 100% banned. (Edit: but it’s done 100% wrong at your place!) Dishwasher and garbage disposal outlets are usually done like that. This is a rental right?
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Apr 23, 2018 22:14
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Yeah, it is. And you're right, I was wrong on that 100% statement. In my head it made sense but whoops. E: VVV that happens a lot, but it's normally on the same circuit when it's a switched outlet, run to or from the switch. See that all the time. And as poster above said, you can do multiple circuits with a tie bar. Queen_Combat fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Apr 24, 2018 |
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Apr 23, 2018 23:00
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You also see it where it's a split outlet with one receptacle on a switch and the other constant power.
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Apr 24, 2018 00:55
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I'm confused, just about every junction box I've ever opened has had multiple circuits in it. Perhaps a result of living in an area that still requires conduit? The idea of a separate conduit run for every circuit sounds... expensive.
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Apr 24, 2018 02:44
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:... Running two circuits to one box is also 100% against code for a residence like this... I used to believe this. Then I got a fun surprise and a tingly arm.
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Apr 24, 2018 02:52
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Slugworth posted:I'm confused, just about every junction box I've ever opened has had multiple circuits in it. Perhaps a result of living in an area that still requires conduit? The idea of a separate conduit run for every circuit sounds... expensive. Read my post above, with clarification. You can do it, but you have to do it in approved boxes, have the circuits tied together so they trip at the same time (that's an NEC thing, so should be universal in the US), and meet wire fill volume requirements.
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Apr 24, 2018 03:10
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:You can do it, but you have to have the circuits tied together so they trip at the same time (that's an NEC thing, so should be universal in the US). I think that’s only if the circuits are tied to the same yoke. Not if they are in the same box. Edit: for example, a three gang box for three switches on different branch circuits do not need to be tied together. Special A fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Apr 24, 2018 |
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Apr 24, 2018 03:29
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A yoke is the thing that mounts the receptacle to the box, so a duplex outlet is two receptacles on one yoke. So, even if you have a switching receptacle, since they're both on one yoke, they need to be tied. These outlets are all single gang. E: I responded before your edit, I get it. Plus, this outlet had, in a sense, tied neutrals (though they were really ground, which is also not good. Queen_Combat fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Apr 24, 2018 |
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Apr 24, 2018 03:35
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:A yoke is the thing that mounts the receptacle to the box, so a duplex outlet is two receptacles on one yoke. So, even if you have a switching receptacle, since they're both on one yoke, they need to be tied. These outlets are all single gang. I know, I was responding specifically to having multiple circuits in one box. Obviously in your specific case, with two circuits on the same yoke, they need to be tied together. If the two circuits were on separate receptacles (on separate yokes) in the same box, they would not need to be tied together. Edit: a shared neutral is ok (using the ground as neutral is not of course), as long as the breakers are tied together or you use a 2 pole breaker. I think at one point you didn't have to do that, which would be a problem if the two breakers were on the same line, since that could overload the neutral. Special A fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Apr 24, 2018 |
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Apr 24, 2018 03:39
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:I went to turn off the breaker to investigate, but I had to turn off TWO breakers to disable the outlet. What. Here's an artist's representation of what I found when I opened it up: That explains our weird experience at a hotel this week. Plugged my phone into the top outlet, fan into the bottom outlet. When I hit the light switch, the phone would stop charging but the fan would keep running. This was, as far as this place went, a minor issue.
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Apr 24, 2018 12:58
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