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Arglebargle III posted:Yeah but psuedoscientific traditional Chinese medicine is an invention of the mid 20th century. tellmemore.gif
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Apr 24, 2018 15:55
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Mao pushed it as a cheap alternative to actually providing healthcare to his people.
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Apr 24, 2018 16:50
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ughhhh posted:Roman bathing culture was heavily influence by Japanese bathing culture as shown in this documentary: This owns
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Apr 24, 2018 17:37
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ughhhh posted:Roman bathing culture was heavily influence by Japanese bathing culture as shown in this documentary: 
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Apr 24, 2018 17:47
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Mantis42 posted:Mao pushed it as a cheap alternative to actually providing healthcare to his people. Wasn't there also some nationalistic angle in rejecting western medicine and science and doubling down on folk cures and random nonsense?
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Apr 24, 2018 18:05
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ughhhh posted:Roman bathing culture was heavily influence by Japanese bathing culture as shown in this documentary: without even looking at this, it's gotta be that weird time-traveling manga that got popular a couple years back isn't it e: i was right!! AriadneThread fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Apr 24, 2018 |
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Apr 24, 2018 18:13
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CommonShore posted:tellmemore.gif On top of what was said, a lot of the doctors were ideologically suspect following the Hundred Flowers campaign and the anti rightist campaign. Post 1968, the barefoot doctors become more widespread, and they received anywhere from 6 to 18 months of training before being sent out to the countryside.
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Apr 24, 2018 19:00
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SlothfulCobra posted:Wasn't there also some nationalistic angle in rejecting western medicine and science and doubling down on folk cures and random nonsense? It's CHINESE medicine and it's good for you. WESTERN medicine is all chemicals and bad for you. That's pretty much the extent to it, China=always good; Western=can/will kill you. There's a whole thing with using IV's because pills work too fast. I told my friend who is a doctor about this and he was alarmed because it's incredibly unnecessary and unsanitary. This is also in a county with Sub-Saharan African levels of AID's in most of the provinces due to unsanitary needles and blood/plasma selling.
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Apr 24, 2018 19:51
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SlothfulCobra posted:Wasn't there also some nationalistic angle in rejecting western medicine and science and doubling down on folk cures and random nonsense? That came later. Here's the rough structure: Late Qing Empire through the beginning of the Civil War: Chinese people follow what everyone else is doing and attempt to move onto new working medicines often called "western medicine" but really many of the most important discoveries are coming out of the whole planet. So we will call it real medicine from this point forward. If you're living in a city or even a fairly connected small town, you will try to use this before anything else, if you're in rural areas you're often still using folk medicine stuff because nobodies bringing real medicine out several weeks' hard travel to your farm village. Civil War to its end: People still prefer to use real medicine but there's some serious disruption from the ongoing civil war, let alone all the issues during the Japanese invasion. The communists start promising as one of their appeals to the people that they'll bring real doctors to everyone. Early communist era: It's easy enough to bring real medicine to people in the cities and the near suburban/rural areas. It's easy enough to maintain medicine stocks and proper training there. But the people in the rural areas still want doctors. The solution arrived at is that they can send less well trained doctors and medical students to that area, teaching them techniques that don't rely as heavily on modern medications and such that will be difficult to supply out there. As part of this, it includes many old folk medicine techniques so that you can at least give people something to alleviate their suffering. A few decades later: Because those traditional medicine techniques have been at least somewhat endorsed by the powers that be, they become more popular than they've been for a while. Additionally with the greater opening of China to the west, a lot of people especially from America are coming to visit, seeing traditional stuff being done and trying it themselves for minor issues, and those people are going back home like "wow I got such and such done visiting Shanghai and I feel so much better!". A lot of those people are also into bringing back european/american traditional medicine so they roll in the chinese tradition stuff in that support. This demand increases the prestige both in China and in the rest of the world for traditional medicine. Today: The government outright supports a bunch of junk approval of such traditional medicine in part for national pride reasons, but also so companies can sell that poo poo overseas, it's a major industry.
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Apr 24, 2018 23:05
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According to my father, when he was a boy in rural Taiwan in the '60s, the general attitude was that traditional Chinese medicine is good enough for chronic complaints or general malaise or the like, but come any serious health issues or emergencies you go straight to the Western doctors and medicines. Unless it's something like cancer, because if you have trouble affording the expensive treatments and the doctors are telling you you're hosed anyways you might as well give the Chinese medicine a shot. That being said he still places a vague sort of importance on the idea of "hot" and "cold" foods, though not to the point where he seriously plans his diet around it.
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Apr 24, 2018 23:36
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Neat. I didn't realise that Modern Traditional Chinese Medicine followed an arc roughly like that of Wicca or neo-Paganism (i.e. bits of old stuff "resurrected" or "reconstructed" by modern people and packaged as really old when it's actually a new thing), but combined with weird Chinese nationalism.Tomn posted:According to my father, when he was a boy in rural Taiwan in the '60s, the general attitude was that traditional Chinese medicine is good enough for chronic complaints or general malaise or the like, but come any serious health issues or emergencies you go straight to the Western doctors and medicines. Unless it's something like cancer, because if you have trouble affording the expensive treatments and the doctors are telling you you're hosed anyways you might as well give the Chinese medicine a shot. A friend of mine is from Taipei and that's basically his attitude toward it. ughhhh posted:Roman bathing culture was heavily influence by Japanese bathing culture as shown in this documentary: This is basically a Kilgore Trout plot. I would watch two hours of this. And by that I mean I'd watch two hours of weird trailers. I have no desire to see the whole movie.
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Apr 24, 2018 23:41
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Oh man someone gave it to me to read once. Kinda crazy but entertaining.
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Apr 25, 2018 00:11
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CommonShore posted:but combined with...nationalism.
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Apr 25, 2018 00:12
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TCM really did exist before but it was a collection of shamanistic traditions and maybe some ancient medical texts that was as much magic as science. In the 1950s they went around collecting pharmacopoeia and treatments and excised all the magic. The shameful thing is that there are probably a lot of real drugs hiding in TCM but because of the government's dual funding model the TCM industry has every incentive to defend its pharmacopoeia from real doctors and scientists. And Chinese doctors are effective but woefully underpaid so it's doubly a shame the TCM people suck up government funding. I had nothing but good experiences with the Chinese health system except for long wait times and frazzled personnel. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Apr 25, 2018 |
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Apr 25, 2018 02:20
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Lotta of the real stuff in TCM got snagged already and is already developed, I had a course on it and they basically went over a lot of the plant stuff as well as the mechanisms of action for each of them. Things like Ephedra for example got picked up really fast. Medical ethnobotany is always kinda difficult to talk about because some types get really really aggressive when you say something like “This plant has medicinal effects if it is prepped and used in this way”. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Apr 25, 2018 |
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Apr 25, 2018 03:20
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I was out in the woods with some botanists and they handed me some weird leaves to chew on and they made my mouth so fricking numb I was worried I would bite my tongue and not notice
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Apr 25, 2018 05:07
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Squalid posted:I was out in the woods with some botanists and they handed me some weird leaves to chew on and they made my mouth so fricking numb I was worried I would bite my tongue and not notice
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Apr 25, 2018 05:18
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Squalid posted:I was out in the woods with some botanists and they handed me some weird leaves to chew on and they made my mouth so fricking numb I was worried I would bite my tongue and not notice Yeah that's coca congrats
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Apr 25, 2018 06:13
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There are so many receptor proteins, it doesn't have to be coca.
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Apr 25, 2018 06:27
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Telsa Cola posted:Medical ethnobotany is always kinda difficult to talk about because some types get really really aggressive when you say something like “This plant has medicinal effects if it is prepped and used in this way”. Are you talking about resistance from the traditional medicine practitioners, or mainstream medicine?
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Apr 25, 2018 09:22
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Mr Enderby posted:Are you talking about resistance from the traditional medicine practitioners, or mainstream medicine? Mainstream medicine in my experience.
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Apr 25, 2018 09:57
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TCM was even banned by the nationalists in the 1920s as superstitious nonsense that made China look primitive. It's hard to overstate how big it is in the mainland today. It's sort of a Godwin's Law thing, the longer you speak with a Chinese person, the likelihood of it being brought up is almost certain. At my school they were super on the nose and actually cancelled the students' biology class and replaced it with a TCM class.
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Apr 26, 2018 03:52
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Cool find in Sweden: Archaeologists dug up a fifth century hll fort and found evidence of a massacre. http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/crime-sandby-borg-site-1600-year-old-tragedy-sweden-005377 It appears to have been an indiscriminate attack, with old and young alike killed in their homes, probably while defenseless. The bodies were never disturbed following death and were buried where they fell, despite there having been several other nearby settlements at the time that could have moved or formally buried them. They even found herring and dinner scraps by the hearth, presumably where they had been put to prepare for dinner before being buried under the collapsed roof. Local residents still maintain the place is cursed and warned archaeologists not to disturb the site.  A brooch found stashed in one house. Numerous gold and silver artifacts were found in the fort, stashed near doorways. the attackers barely appear to have looted the place after the attack. Squalid fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Apr 26, 2018 |
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Apr 26, 2018 05:27
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Grand Fromage posted:TCM was even banned by the nationalists in the 1920s as superstitious nonsense that made China look primitive. Yeah, the May 4th movement and its anti-traditionalism specifically had beef with traditional as opposed to Western medicine. One of its leading writers, Lu Xun, was pretty much radicalized by going to a Japanese medical school after his mother died from ineffective traditional medicine, iirc. You can draw a pretty direct line from the late Qing/early Republican rhetoric about the weak and backwards Old Society that needs to adopt Western norms as Japan did in order to beat back the imperial powers, to the early People's Republic rhetoric about the New China, to the Cultural Revolution rhetoric about eliminating Old habits and traditions. It's totally plausible to me that TCM experienced a Wicca-like reinvention in the last few decades, but it's kind of breaking my brain because I associate the PRC brand of Chinese nationalism historically with opposition to exactly that type of thing. Like, wasn't that a major 20th c. cultural difference between Hong Kong and the mainland? Doesn't PRC film censorship still strongly discourage supernatural/ghost story themes in movies on grounds of "promoting superstition?" There must have been a conscious shift in policy at some point or the government wouldn't be promoting their image with stuff like the Confucius Institute that invokes "traditional" imagery so heavily. Is that a Deng thing or what? (talking critically about how modern governments use ancient history fits in this thread, right?)
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Apr 26, 2018 07:14
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The only other decent fit I can think of would be the china threads and they're bad.
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Apr 26, 2018 07:19
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hailthefish posted:The only other decent fit I can think of would be the china threads and they're bad. 
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Apr 26, 2018 07:27
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Squalid posted:A brooch found stashed in one house. Numerous gold and silver artifacts were found in the fort, stashed near doorways. the attackers barely appear to have looted the place after the attack. This raises so many questions - why the attack? For what purpose if not for money/plunder? Why did nobody ever bother to give them a proper burial? Were they disliked/hated by the locals? It doesn't seem like they were intruders themselves. Maybe it was just an indiscriminate attack with no actual purpose behind it, which is also pretty scary to think about.
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Apr 26, 2018 10:03
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Jerusalem posted:This raises so many questions - why the attack? For what purpose if not for money/plunder? Why did nobody ever bother to give them a proper burial? Were they disliked/hated by the locals? It doesn't seem like they were intruders themselves. Maybe it was just an indiscriminate attack with no actual purpose behind it, which is also pretty scary to think about. Maybe the attackers couldn't get a girlfriend.
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Apr 26, 2018 10:17
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Jerusalem posted:This raises so many questions - why the attack? For what purpose if not for money/plunder? Why did nobody ever bother to give them a proper burial? Were they disliked/hated by the locals? It doesn't seem like they were intruders themselves. Maybe it was just an indiscriminate attack with no actual purpose behind it, which is also pretty scary to think about. Maybe some of the villagers were being real jerks, and their neighbors decided to kill them all and let Hel sort them out? Or perhaps the denouement of a particularly nasty local feud? I know that if me and my neighbors decided to massacre a village nearby, I'd start telling everyone that the crime scene was super-cursed, don't go there, so that it would discourage inconvenient questions.
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Apr 26, 2018 14:53
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Could've been marauders who, having been rebuffed at being paid tribute/ransom, made an example of the fort and its inhabitants. Then went around telling surrounding communities about it? "You don't want to end up like them. Pay up or we'll slaughter you down to the last child and leave you to rot where you lie."
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Apr 26, 2018 18:27
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I feel like such a group would have looted the place
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Apr 26, 2018 18:34
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Thwomp posted:Could've been marauders who, having been rebuffed at being paid tribute/ransom, made an example of the fort and its inhabitants. I think the death of the children points to either religious or political / revenge, not just plundering.
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Apr 26, 2018 18:47
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Eh, might have been pissed off neighbours. Always making GBS threads in the stream when the other village had it's washing day. The lack of professional looting here has me a bit shocked, I must admit.
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Apr 26, 2018 18:55
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Lack of looting says to me that they didn’t have much time to rest on their laurels. Even if you came not to rob but to exterminate people, if the exterminated have cool gold poo poo you will probably take the time to steal it. If there was one armed group ready to do this kind of violence, there are likely to have been others: maybe whoever attacked the borg was worried about their own undefended homes, or maybe someone else was coming towards the borg as well and they didn’t want to wait around for a fight. Here’s an interesting article from a couple years about the same excavations. It links the attack to the drying-up of the supply of Roman gold for fighters as the western empire collapsed. Speculative but I thought it was neat.
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Apr 26, 2018 19:24
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Maybe the dying villagers put a curse on their possessions that their murderers believed was serious enough to be worth avoiding. Perhaps the first guy to disregard it and who picked up some loot anyways accidentally tripped and impaled himself on a sharp stick, convincing the others to back off? 
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Apr 26, 2018 19:26
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One of the articles I read noted that although they found lots of hidden jewelry and Roman coins, remarkably they recovered almost no weaponry. They suggested these items may have been taken, possibly as a trophy or offering.
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Apr 26, 2018 19:46
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Maybe the marauders got paranoid, thougt they'd get caught and ran away without looting thoroughly.
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Apr 26, 2018 19:46
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Maybe a schizophrenic Jarl was giving people orders - "The voices say that they all must die, and then the corn will grow! Oh, and that their gold is cursed. That's the corn's gold now."
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Apr 26, 2018 20:06
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But they also didn't take the sheep and horses. What kind of self-respecting marauder refuses a looted horse? It's wealth that provides it's own getaway method.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:09
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Sea peoples? 
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Apr 26, 2018 20:16
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