|
mary sues don't get their eyes burnt out then hobble round prognosticating helplessly ime
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 00:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 06:01 |
|
|
mary sues don't kill their wife and wander off into the desert, palming off the work to their children (and his son is kind of an rear end in a top hat) i get the thought process and Paul can seem pretty OP as the kids say but the whole story is about the fact that he's an unprecedented dude. he's a powerful guy and the story is about exploring the effects of that power. a real mary sue is just kind of there with all their power and I exists to make people like them more than anything else. paul is prescient and a smart enough dude to take advantage of it -- the central question of dune isn't whether he's going to survive or whatever but whether he is going to escape the jihad it's also a fanfiction term
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 01:07
|
|
|
Pham Nuwen posted:If Paul wasn't a Mary Sue, he wouldn't be the Kwisatz Haderach. It's not like you're reading a story set in modern America except the protagonist is Paul; it's already a universe populated by exceptional people (Mentats, Bene Gesserit, Guild Navigators, Tleilaxu). Paul is the result of an incredibly long breeding program by the Bene Gesserit, who already train mostly normal women into "witches" who can move with superhuman speed & strength, precisely control their own body functions, rearrange chemical structures of things they have ingested, and see the memories of all their female ancestors. Paul ended up not actually being the real Kwisatz Haderach  don't tell anybody.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 07:02
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:Paul ended up not actually being the real Kwisatz Haderach And how can this be?
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 08:10
|
|
|
Paul also becomes more inhuman as the story goes on, it kind of puts him at odds with being all that brilliant.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 09:15
|
|
Zeniel posted:Paul also becomes more inhuman as the story goes on, it kind of puts him at odds with being all that brilliant. yeah. to me, Paul's defining moment is when he goes 'gently caress this' and walks off into the desert. he directly gave rise to Leto 2 who, sure, claims he averted an apocalypse but he was still a monster-tyrant. Paul flat out gives up. You could argue that Leto 2 succeeded where Paul failed, but you could probably also argue that a human could never (and perhaps should never) succeed at it -- even one as powerful as Paul.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 09:22
|
|
|
I just read dune (the first book) again like 2 months ago and got into an argument with 2 colleagues who both said that the original dune book says that the spice lets you extend your lifespan. I realise it's called the geriatric spice in book 1 but I argued that it didn't mention actual lifespan extensions. I'm sure it does in the other books. Who is wrong? VVV so much for my garbage memory. I'd like to know how much it's mentioned in book 1 
redreader fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Apr 24, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 09:43
|
|
|
redreader posted:I just read dune (the first book) again like 2 months ago and got into an argument with 2 colleagues who both said that the original dune book says that the spice lets you extend your lifespan. I realise it's called the geriatric spice in book 1 but I argued that it didn't mention actual lifespan extensions. I'm sure it does in the other books. Who is wrong? I'm reading it presently, and I can tell you that it's life extending properties are definitely mentioned in passing. (in the beginning of the book anyway, I dunno if its elaborated upon later)
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 09:49
|
|
|
redreader posted:I just read dune (the first book) again like 2 months ago and got into an argument with 2 colleagues who both said that the original dune book says that the spice lets you extend your lifespan. I realise it's called the geriatric spice in book 1 but I argued that it didn't mention actual lifespan extensions. I'm sure it does in the other books. Who is wrong? It isn't mentioned very often and much isn't said beyond "this poo poo also makes you live longer." Of course that's part of how the nobility keeps control. The spice makes them a bit superhuman. Lots of it of course makes you just plain quit being human; hence Navigators. Of course that's another theme the books touch on without ever coming out and saying it; what does it mean to be human? Navigators are horribly mutated to the point where their limbs don't even work anymore and they can't survive outside of their tanks. Are they human anymore? They were but where is the cut off? There are various stages to being a Navigator and the farthest along are...weird. Plus there's stuff like clones and gholas running around. When Duncan number whatever accesses the memories of the previous Duncan...well is that a new Duncan or just the same one? ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Apr 24, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 10:49
|
|
|
BIG MEATY SHITS posted:the best dune soundtrack imo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Not_70IR8&t=2185s Hoo!
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 12:17
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:It isn't mentioned very often and much isn't said beyond "this poo poo also makes you live longer." Of course that's part of how the nobility keeps control. The spice makes them a bit superhuman. Lots of it of course makes you just plain quit being human; hence Navigators. The Duke, of all people has the line. "It has true geriatric properties". Somewhere else I am sure someone says "the spice lengthens life. It can shorten it too", but I can't find it. On the Navigators, you have to remember that the Guild operates on "almost pure mathematics". Which says a lot about what prescience is. I have always understood it to be a logical process, calculating the likely consequences of the exact way that butterfly flapped it's wings. For the merely supremely brilliant minds, this feat, even when used on much more predictable phenomena such as the movement of the bodies of the heavens, requires such an enormous dose of spice that physical symptoms occur. Remember that while Frank apparently loved the Lynch portrayal of the Navigators he was deliberately vague when describing them. It could just as easily be side-effects of weightlessness. As to Leto's use of Duncan, remember that everyone in the Universe in the Heretics and Chapterhouse period had Siona's genes EXCEPT DUNCAN. So he is this beacon in the future to Leto.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 14:08
|
|
|
It takes a superhuman Mary Sue to gently caress up hard enough to kill sixty billion people and usher in the millennia long rule of a post-human super tyrant so cruel that humanity develops a genetic aversion to authority. Leto II is like, "Hold my spice beer."
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 15:19
|
|
|
exmachina posted:Remember that while Frank apparently loved the Lynch portrayal of the Navigators he was deliberately vague when describing them. It could just as easily be side-effects of weightlessness. I think that there is one of the things that made him such a drat good storyteller; very few people would ever see a high stage Navigator and even if you did come into contact with one you'd see more of its tank than anything. He does point out that the spice changes people; the blue-on-blue eyes were just the first stage of it. Most people didn't take enough to seriously mutate but Navigators it started screwing up. He was vague because the varied in how it affected them and it gave them a weird air of mystery. Most people might have a vague idea that they existed and lived in a tank but that was it. They mostly interacted with other Navigators so they weren't something you'd just see walking down the street some day. Newer ones still looked human but as they got further along they got weirder; they'd get webbed hands, elongated limbs, and big heads. The David Lynch one had basically all of the traits as described in the books while the other Navigators with him started showing them. Granted the descriptions in the books were also specific Navigators; its never really stated if it's consistent or not.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 15:51
|
|
|
Does the book ever spell out that Duncan is leto 2's future scope?
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 18:30
|
|
|
ive read the series multiple times and never considered it, and now my mind is blown. i am also an idiot tho.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 19:51
|
|
|
I saw the Lynch movie as a kid before I read the book, which I believe was me turning the channel to Dune right when the emperor's palace was scrambling to get ready for the navigator, and then the navigator shows up in that giant freaky tank and then the tank OPENS and there's this giant bizarre flesh fish Spacing Guild navigator what the gently caress
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 19:59
|
|
|
Lynch's guild navigator makes me extremely uncomfortable and squeamish. the pitted, mottled, severely acne scarred testicle face is plain difficult to look at in a trypophobia sort of way
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 21:23
|
|
|
Kazak posted:Lynch's guild navigator makes me extremely uncomfortable and squeamish. the pitted, mottled, severely acne scarred testicle face is plain difficult to look at in a trypophobia sort of way Also that weird hosed up mouth that shoots light. That scene hooked me on Dune and the Lynch movie bigtime.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 22:04
|
|
|
I like the guy who apparently calls the shots even though he's not a third stage. Just pop that weird microphone up to four-food-seven so this warlock dwarf can dress you down, Emperor Stain. "Remedy this situation!" his otherwise squeaky, shy voice becomes a mighty boom over the Guildophone.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 22:48
|
|
|
exmachina posted:On the Navigators, you have to remember that the Guild operates on "almost pure mathematics". Which says a lot about what prescience is. I have always understood it to be a logical process, calculating the likely consequences of the exact way that butterfly flapped it's wings. For the merely supremely brilliant minds, this feat, even when used on much more predictable phenomena such as the movement of the bodies of the heavens, requires such an enormous dose of spice that physical symptoms occur. Mentats calculate really well. They are not prescient in the way Navigators were. They are not prescient the way Paul and Leto II were. The whole unknown threat in the future and Siona gene thing show that prescience is not a calculation. The "almost pure mathematics" quote refers to operating the Heighliner itself imo. phasmid posted:I like the guy who apparently calls the shots even though he's not a third stage. Just pop that weird microphone up to four-food-seven so this warlock dwarf can dress you down, Emperor Stain. "Remedy this situation!" his otherwise squeaky, shy voice becomes a mighty boom over the Guildophone. He is not even calling the shots. It just the Guild views Emperor so low that they address him through underling. Full Navigator wont lower itself to speak with him. Herr Bazooka fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Apr 24, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 22:57
|
|
|
BIG MEATY SHITS posted:ive read the series multiple times and never considered it, and now my mind is blown. i am also an idiot tho. I don't think it's ever explicitly stated anywhere but Frank Herbert always implied a lot of things without coming out and actually saying it. I think that's one of the reasons Brian Herbert gets dumped on; he doesn't have that storytelling skill. No subtlety, no hinting, and no leaving it at "we do it this way because <thing> happened like 10,000 years ago." I kind of believe that there were a ton of notes that Frank Herbert built the world on but Frank, well...he knew what the gently caress he was doing and only told us about the interesting bits. You don't need a whole book on the Butlerian Jihad to understand "we decided robots are bad because bad things happened. We came up with a less bad way to do things by making people into computers and it has not caused bad things." There's an Alfred Hitchcock quote that sums up the attitude perfectly; "What is drama but but life with the dull bits cut out?" Frank Herbert focused on the meat of the stories and didn't tend to chew on filler. Herr Bazooka posted:Mentats calculate really well. They are not prescient in the way Navigators were. They are not prescient the way Paul and Leto II were. The whole unknown threat in the future and Siona gene thing show that prescience is not a calculation. The "almost pure mathematics" quote refers to operating the Heighliner itself imo. The Navigators weren't prescient in the way Paul and Leto II were either; they were comparable to mentats. They had some low-level prescience that let them avoid hazards but they couldn't predict the future. A lot of what they did was just a gently caress load of math to calculate where the bad things would be that you didn't want to hit and then not be in those places. The paths they had to calculate were damned complex so it was a mix of low-level prescience and a gently caress ton of math. I think. But yeah that scene right there is brilliant for stage setting. Third stage Navigators were rare as gently caress and basically called the shots as far as the Guild went. The fact that one even showed up in person in the first place was a huge loving deal. Then you had important people in two groups who obviously didn't get along well having this verbal power struggle right then and there. The Emperor wasn't in charge of the Guild and he knew it. He needed the Guild and he knew it. However because the Guild didn't control Arrakis they didn't control the spice so they couldn't just strong arm the Emperor into whatever they wanted him to do. Neither side really had the upper hand so there were a lot of court-style subtle insults ("well I'm a super important Navigator level 3 so talk to this level 2 scrub instead, nerd"). It did so much to show how fragile and tenuous the entire social order of the Landsraad actually was right from the get go. It drops the reader in media res but is a brilliant stroke of "you can understand literally the whole situation from this conversation." The spice must flow. Everybody knows that but the bickering over the details never ended.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2018 23:25
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:The Navigators weren't prescient in the way Paul and Leto II were either; they were comparable to mentats. They had some low-level prescience that let them avoid hazards but they couldn't predict the future. A lot of what they did was just a gently caress load of math to calculate where the bad things would be that you didn't want to hit and then not be in those places. The paths they had to calculate were damned complex so it was a mix of low-level prescience and a gently caress ton of math. I think. The reason I think that Navigators were prescient like Paul and Leto II were, only much much less powerful, is the fact that you cannot calculate unknown. Navigator cannot include in its calculations unknown cobblestone flying through space that Heighliner will warp in front of just like Paul and Leto II cannot include in their calculations the unknown destruction of humanity. They dont know about those things. Unless they are prescient. Space Magic. To me it makes sense that Navigator besides being prescient are, like mentats, living computers but their computing of almost pure mathematics is to control the ships they drive. I assume that process of jumping the ship takes a lot of calculation. Jumping the ship itself, power generation, orbital mechanics and such.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 00:54
|
|
|
Herr Bazooka posted:The reason I think that Navigators were prescient like Paul and Leto II were, only much much less powerful, is the fact that you cannot calculate unknown. Navigator cannot include in its calculations unknown cobblestone flying through space that Heighliner will warp in front of just like Paul and Leto II cannot include in their calculations the unknown destruction of humanity. They dont know about those things. Unless they are prescient. Space Magic. To me it makes sense that Navigator besides being prescient are, like mentats, living computers but their computing of almost pure mathematics is to control the ships they drive. I assume that process of jumping the ship takes a lot of calculation. Jumping the ship itself, power generation, orbital mechanics and such. Well yeah that's just it; Navigators get limited, low-level prescience but they can't look thousands of years ahead and to the other end of the galaxy. I think the portrayal was that it was the combination of both; they can calculate the positions of all the poo poo they know about, avoid that, and then use prescience to avoid the rest. I think there are mentions that this used to be done using huge rear end computers but, well, AI isn't allowed anymore so Navigators it is. That might have been in the prequels though which were...well, mediocre.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 00:56
|
|
|
Herr Bazooka posted:The reason I think that Navigators were prescient like Paul and Leto II were, only much much less powerful, is the fact that you cannot calculate unknown. Navigator cannot include in its calculations unknown cobblestone flying through space that Heighliner will warp in front of just like Paul and Leto II cannot include in their calculations the unknown destruction of humanity. They dont know about those things. Unless they are prescient. Space Magic. To me it makes sense that Navigator besides being prescient are, like mentats, living computers but their computing of almost pure mathematics is to control the ships they drive. I assume that process of jumping the ship takes a lot of calculation. Jumping the ship itself, power generation, orbital mechanics and such. Heretics straight up says this. The mess in time they make trying to see the future is enough to make it difficult for Paul and persumably Leto to see them and their associates with prescience, which is the whole reason a Navigator was brought into the plot against Paul.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 01:08
|
|
|
 (maybe an old image, but new to me and strangely popped up on my husband's FB just as I was checking this thread)
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 01:20
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:Well yeah that's just it; Navigators get limited, low-level prescience but they can't look thousands of years ahead and to the other end of the galaxy. Of course. Paul and Leto II in completely different league compared to Navigators. Navigators could do days maybe month. But there is a profound difference between calculating probabilities and literally knowing things through Space Magic. Trait that both Navigators and Paul and Leto II share. The weird thing in Dune-verse prescience that it, as shown by no-ships, no-chambers and Siona Gene, has a physical element to it. Prescience can be built, can be constructed. I dont believe that no-ships can jump safely because they compute good. It runs in same problem that they cannot compute what they dont know. So I guess they have a mechanism that sees future? That prescient?
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 01:20
|
|
|
I guess it is just my headcanon, but one of the reasons I liked how prescience was handled was that it was NOT Space Magic. Navigators prescience was different in degree but not in form from Paul and Leto, that is why Navigators interfere with their prescience. They are just not as good at it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 01:21
|
|
|
Guild navigators can see well enough into the future to know that Paul can completely destroy the spice.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 01:21
|
|
|
Doc Hawkins posted:Guild navigators can see well enough into the future to know that Paul can completely destroy the spice. No, they see what Paul sees: so many confounding possibilities that their prescience hits a wall. Edit: And prescience forms it's own future remember? That was the whole point of the Golden Path!
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 01:25
|
|
|
exmachina posted:I guess it is just my headcanon, but one of the reasons I liked how prescience was handled was that it was NOT Space Magic. Navigators prescience was different in degree but not in form from Paul and Leto, that is why Navigators interfere with their prescience. They are just not as good at it. It sort if is though but it is not really explained. For what we know it is a mystical power. It is The Force. It is Space Magic. Doc Hawkins posted:Guild navigators can see well enough into the future to know that Paul can completely destroy the spice. Herr Bazooka fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Apr 25, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 01:25
|
|
|
exmachina posted:No, they see what Paul sees: so many confounding possibilities that their prescience hits a wall. Yeah that's why prescience is nebulous and weird in the setting; it's obvious that it works but nobody really has any idea why. Then stuff that was immune to prescience started showing up. Now, was it just invisible to prescience or did prescience ignore it because prescience shaped the future rather than showing it? Was a Navigator finding a safe route or was he making one? That's why Paul was questioning it; there were views that were fuzzy and lots of possibilities but was he causing the future he saw to happen or was the future inevitable?
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 02:02
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:Yeah that's why prescience is nebulous and weird in the setting; it's obvious that it works but nobody really has any idea why. Then stuff that was immune to prescience started showing up. Now, was it just invisible to prescience or did prescience ignore it because prescience shaped the future rather than showing it? Yes. Part of the fun of Dune is this philosophical debate about the nature of self determination.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 02:10
|
|
|
Herr Bazooka posted:It sort if is though but it is not really explained. For what we know it is a mystical power. It is The Force. It is Space Magic. FH really makes a few attempts to lay down the logic of it, tho as said above he was really good at providing just enough info that you can fill in the blanks. Like I said, headcanon. I see it as similar to psychohistory from The Foundation series. Any sufficiently advanced mathematics etc etc ToxicSlurpee posted:Yeah that's why prescience is nebulous and weird in the setting; it's obvious that it works but nobody really has any idea why. Then stuff that was immune to prescience started showing up. Now, was it just invisible to prescience or did prescience ignore it because prescience shaped the future rather than showing it? Siona, as an Atreides, was prescient, just a very limited form of prescience. Edit: And no-globes are hermetically sealed against the outside world so can't be predicted by prescience. exmachina fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Apr 25, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 02:26
|
|
|
Roll prescient Tide
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 02:31
|
|
|
Guild Navs are adept enough to foil the prescience of others. That's a major plot point from esp. book 2 but also onward.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 03:10
|
|
|
Dune is just a well crafted metaphor about the noble lives of trucker. It mainly focuses on the manufacturing of the navigators (truckers) pep pills (spice). It also explains why Paul's favorite catch phrase throughout the series is "That's a big ten four," and why the Baron Harkonnen is constantly referred to as "Old Smokey," Shai Hulud's are ideal Big Rigs.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 05:49
|
|
|
exmachina posted:FH really makes a few attempts to lay down the logic of it, tho as said above he was really good at providing just enough info that you can fill in the blanks. Like I said, headcanon. Also the Mule in Foundation is Paul in Dune, someone who wasn't part of the programming.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 05:54
|
|
|
Zeniel posted:Dune is just a well crafted metaphor about the noble lives of trucker. It mainly focuses on the manufacturing of the navigators (truckers) pep pills (spice). Good post imo
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 06:14
|
|
|
Spice basically = caffeine, we're pretty much dependent on it for work to function like it does
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 06:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 06:01 |
|
|
So in my reread of book 1, I just got to the end of the dinner party. I can already see how dumb my question on the last page was. My assumptions were based mostly on the screen adaptations where a lot of revelations and intuitions were foisted on Paul's character to save time. In fact, I'm finding that a lot of events and characters and stuff that I know about the book is heavily colored by representations or discussions of those things in pop culture. That'll teach me to think I can remember the specifics of a book I read once 18 years ago. That said I'm surprised at how sparse the book is on description, and yet so evocative.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 06:24
|
|