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hypnophant posted:Are you seriously suggesting that every single Uighur separatist is a paid CIA asset I'm suggesting their founder was a paid CIA asset, typical sputtering liberal and their strawmen
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Apr 25, 2018 13:36
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A founder does not make a movement alone This is why you get accused of being disingenuous, a troll, wumao etc. The message is not the movement; even american liberals recognize this, and the fact that Trump's campaign got some help from foreign adversaries doesn't change the fact that that message resonated with millions of american voters. Supposing the founder really is a CIA asset; do the actions of one man justify the Xinjiang police state, crackdown on civil liberties, the brutal repression? Is Chinese control in the province so tenuous that one paid informant can threaten their security? Or do his message and actions resonate with a people who see themselves as oppressed? hypnophant fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Apr 25, 2018 |
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Apr 25, 2018 13:40
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hypnophant posted:The message is not the movement; even american liberals recognize this, and the fact that Trump's campaign got some help from foreign adversaries doesn't change the fact that that message resonated with millions of american voters. lmao, explain the DNC suing russia over their feelings being hurt.
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Apr 25, 2018 13:53
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Peven Stan posted:lmao, explain the DNC suing russia over their feelings being hurt. Or just keep shitposting about owning the libs so you don't have to address the fact that you're trash.
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Apr 25, 2018 14:11
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Peven Stan posted:lmao, explain the DNC suing russia over their feelings being hurt. They aren't, they're suing hackers who illegally accessed their computer systems, and the foreign adversary who sponsored them. At the same time there's a recognition that the previous strategy failed and there's a need to pay more attention to rural areas and red states and run candidates who can compete in those areas, and Dems are starting to see successes by changing their strategy. You can contrast this with the PRC's strategy in Xinjiang; legal action against alleged agents of the foreign adversary, which I would have no problem with except that the Chinese legal system is manifestly unfair... combined with doubling down on the previous strategy of repression, to the extent that Xinjiang now resembles occupied territory with no end in sight. The fact that you're only focusing on the one element of the story that supports your narrative, and don't even make an attempt to address the rest, seriously undermines your increasingly pathetic troll attempts.
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Apr 25, 2018 14:13
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Explain why you think genocide is good. Who's being genocided? Where are the sources for this genocide happening outside of the hysterical state department bubble? Why isn't the international community doing anything about this purported genocide? Why is this genocide any more urgent that the "genocide" being carried out in Tibet right now? Free tibet, free east turkestan??? hypnophant posted:You can contrast this with the PRC's strategy in Xinjiang; legal action against alleged agents of the foreign adversary, which I would have no problem with except that the Chinese legal system is manifestly unfair... combined with doubling down on the previous strategy of repression, to the extent that Xinjiang now resembles occupied territory with no end in sight. The fact that you're only focusing on the one element of the story that supports your narrative, and don't even make an attempt to address the rest, seriously undermines your increasingly pathetic troll attempts. It's no more occupied territory than Tejas is occupied territory.
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Apr 25, 2018 14:15
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Peven Stan posted:Free tibet, free east turkestan??? Those would be a start. Free Taiwan and Hong Kong, while we're at it quote:It's no more occupied territory than Tejas is occupied territory. Native Texans rarely have their passports confiscated
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Apr 25, 2018 14:23
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Peven Stan posted:Who's being genocided? Where are the sources for this genocide happening outside of the hysterical state department bubble? Why isn't the international community doing anything about this purported genocide?
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Apr 25, 2018 14:27
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Like what bathtub cheese implied earlier, liberals don’t really have an endgame for Turkestan other than another Islamist state in Central Asia that the US can soft colonize in a woke manner and turn into an airbase on China’s border. It’s hilarious white Americans are pretending otherwise.
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Apr 25, 2018 14:27
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Best thing trump ever did for this country was gut the state department of its nougat filled, liberal interventionist center so all the baby dulleses in this thread can do is whine and flail
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Apr 25, 2018 14:31
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Peven Stan posted:Like what bathtub cheese implied earlier, liberals don’t really have an endgame for Turkestan other than another Islamist state in Central Asia that the US can soft colonize in a woke manner and turn into an airbase on China’s border. It’s hilarious white Americans are pretending otherwise. I don't think anyone who has their head screwed on straight actually wants an East Turkestan, they hope for change from within China. One can criticize and denounce a bad thing without having any clear idea how to change it. Beijing's treatment of Uighurs is deplorable and needs to change. There is also almost nothing the US can do to affect that change in a productive way other than to call China out on what's going on there, which is exactly what this thread is doing. Rent-A-Cop posted:1938 is calling and it wants its taking points back. This is overtly hysterical and dilutes the effectiveness of your argument. There's no actual genocide in Xinjiang. I've certainly met Han Chinese who think there should be, and most Han think the government is too kind to ethnic minorities. There is certainly mass forced cultural assimilation and an attack at all levels on Uighur heritage and traditions. And things are bad and getting worse, but I don't see actual ethnic cleansing on the horizon unless poo poo really goes pear-shaped in an unexpected way.
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Apr 25, 2018 14:37
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Peven Stan posted:Like what bathtub cheese implied earlier, liberals don’t really have an endgame for Turkestan other than another Islamist state in Central Asia that the US can soft colonize in a woke manner and turn into an airbase on China’s border. It’s hilarious white Americans are pretending otherwise. And here we see the absolute paranoia of the PRC on display. How are you possibly going to turn Xinjiang into an airbase? It's a thousand miles from the sea and bordered by the loving Himalayas in every direction that isn't China or Russia for thousands of miles. Maintaining airbases in Afghanistan costs an astronomical amount of money, and that's a country with no allies and no air force; China doesn't have any allies either but their air force is second largest in the world and it's right next door. An airbase in Xinjiang would be unaffordable even if it wasn't strategically nearly useless, but even the speculation that it might be possible is enough to justify genocide, in the minds of China's leaders. Heithinn Grasida posted:There is certainly mass forced cultural assimilation and an attack at all levels on Uighur heritage and traditions. And things are bad and getting worse, but I don't see actual ethnic cleansing on the horizon unless poo poo really goes pear-shaped in an unexpected way. This probably doesn't count as genocide under the 1945 definition, but it's within the scope of the term as it's used today hypnophant fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Apr 25, 2018 |
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Apr 25, 2018 14:43
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hypnophant posted:This probably doesn't count as genocide under the 1945 definition, but it's within the scope of the term as it's used today Yeah the scope of what can be considered genocide for non-US aligned actors only increases while for the US or its allies it only decreases. California banning Chinese immigrants from teaching Chinese to their children is literally genocide, got it.
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Apr 25, 2018 14:49
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Ethnic minorities were invented by the CIA to hurt the feelings of the Chinese people.
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Apr 25, 2018 14:51
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China hates minorities so much there’s 5 languages on its money, unlike woke America that has English and _____________ on greenbacks
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Apr 25, 2018 14:56
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Peven Stan posted:Yeah the scope of what can be considered genocide for non-US aligned actors only increases while for the US or its allies it only decreases. California banning Chinese immigrants from teaching Chinese to their children is literally genocide, got it. You're literally making poo poo up now Edit: I went and looked this up! Here's a link explaining Prop 227, passed in 1998, which said students had to be taught primarily in English: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/battle-of-bilingual-education-once-again-brewing-in-california Note it certainly doesn't ban teaching any foreign languages, Chinese or otherwise, just says most instruction has to be in English. Heres Prop 58, which repealed Prop 227 in 2016, passing by almost 3 to 1 If there's something else you're referring to, please educate me hypnophant fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Apr 25, 2018 |
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Apr 25, 2018 15:08
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hypnophant posted:You're literally making poo poo up now I’m not. Lee Mun Wah talks about how social services would take children away from Chinese parents in the 60s for teaching them English. He is a chinese American activist who never learned a lick of Chinese because of that. Typical of white cismales to deny and minimize other people’s oppressions.
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Apr 25, 2018 15:12
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I don't think anyone who has their head screwed on straight actually wants an East Turkestan, they hope for change from within China. One can criticize and denounce a bad thing without having any clear idea how to change it. Beijing's treatment of Uighurs is deplorable and needs to change. Oh my god, thank you. For a while I thought I was going crazy. Seriously, I know government workers that are part of these programs to assimilate people, and they don’t think they are doing anything wrong. I know Muslims here that are burning books and photos and belongings because they’re afraid of going to these camps. I know people whose family members have been disappeared. I know Han people who have said they hate all minorities for what the rioters did in 2009. I also know that Xinjiang is big, education outside the cities is poor, and religion-inspired terrorism is a thing. I arrived after 2009, but I’m aware of some of the very real security concerns here. Yes, it’s complicated, but that doesn’t mean that the government should have a free hand to violate people’s rights because “well, we have to worry about things like clean public toilets, and also really it’s the Americans who don’t understand human rights!”
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Apr 25, 2018 15:15
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Peven Stan posted:Typical of white cismales to deny and minimize other people’s oppressions. This is a real, serious problem but it's hilarious (if that word is appropriate here) that you're doing exactly the same thing with minorities in China.
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Apr 25, 2018 15:15
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Meaniwhile, in China in the 60s, 30 million people starve to death because Mao declares war on sparrows.
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Apr 25, 2018 15:15
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Peven Stan posted:I’m not. Lee Mun Wah talks about how social services would take children away from Chinese parents in the 60s for [b]teaching them English. He is a chinese American activist who never learned a lick of Chinese because of that. I'm certainly willing to acknowledge that a lot of racist poo poo happened in the 60s, and frankly I'm proud of how far we've come since then even though I recognize there's still a long way to go, but this is really just getting back to my point about the west being able to recognize problems and adapt and China just constantly doubling down on awfulness
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Apr 25, 2018 15:26
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McGavin posted:Meaniwhile, in China in the 60s, 30 million people starve to death because Mao declares war on sparrows.
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Apr 25, 2018 15:27
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The thing about xinjiang is that it’s a hodge podge of Uighur in the south, Han in the north and a mix of mongols Tajiks, Kazakhs , Kyrgyz and other races. There’s also a giant mountain which splits the region in half, south is all sandy rocky whereas north is more Siberian forests with lakes and rivers and poo poo. I think the Han folks like to focus on its Buddhist origins a thousand years ago UNTIL THE UGHURS MOVED IN AND FORCED CONVERSION TO ISLAM!!! I’m phone posting so I will keep it brief but the heavy surveillance state is a real thing and everyone in xinjiang Han or Not or Uighur or not gets their phone searched and go through countless checkpoints everyday. Peven Stan posted:China hates minorities so much there’s 5 languages on its money, unlike woke America that has English and _____________ on greenbacks That’s early PRC so you thank very much. Social progress dialed down once Mao gained more power.
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Apr 25, 2018 15:31
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The sparrows were CIA operatives. They killed themselves, and even if they didn't someone was mean to a bird once in America. How come you didn't use your Pevan Stan alt?
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Apr 25, 2018 15:33
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The United States can't achieve a good outcome in this foreign political tinderbox but let's repeat the exact same talking points as the people who'd like set it alight in a cynical effort to discredit their geopolitical foe. That's real advocacy for the oppressed and downtrodden.
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Apr 25, 2018 15:48
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hypnophant posted:I'm certainly willing to acknowledge that a lot of racist poo poo happened in the 60s, and frankly I'm proud of how far we've come since then even though I recognize there's still a long way to go, but this is really just getting back to my point about the west being able to recognize problems and adapt and China just constantly doubling down on awfulness There was actually a report by a Chinese think tank that got shared around the Chinese social networks criticizing ZTE. It didn’t last too long because it was different from official propaganda of HURT FEELINGS UNFAIR TRADE: 1. If ZTE was conducting business in USA it shouldn’t have broken US laws. It should have spent more money and effort lobbying or negotiating to make the terms favorable and legitimate instead of making shell companies to dodge the authorities. 2. The executives should not carry sensitive information and trade information carelessly across borders and out of China. The laptop was seized in US and god knows what other data has been leaked 3. By embarrassing themselves and getting banned not only did they lose a lot of business they eroded the trust and effort Chinese businesses have made over the years and the future efforts of Chinese businesses Conclusion: upper executives are a bunch of lazy clueless fucks and there needs to be a change in management with board approval. So China supposedly do reflect and make changes but all that stuff is behind the scenes so we will never know!
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Apr 25, 2018 15:50
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Bathtub Cheese posted:The United States can't achieve a good outcome in this foreign political tinderbox but let's repeat the exact same talking points as the people who'd like set it alight in a cynical effort to discredit their geopolitical foe. That's real advocacy for the oppressed and downtrodden. True, much better to remain silent because no one will ever accuse the US of neglecting a given minority group or abdicating its global leadership if we refrain from interceding in a genocide
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Apr 25, 2018 15:54
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McGavin posted:Meaniwhile, in China in the 60s, 30 million people starve to death because Mao declares war on sparrows. Hoo boy, tedious redbaiting straight out of the Black Book of Communism. At least you're clarifying the underlying motive here. It's just been retooled in the rhetoric of "human rights".
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Apr 25, 2018 15:55
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Bathtub Cheese posted:The United States can't achieve a good outcome in this foreign political tinderbox but let's repeat the exact same talking points as the people who'd like set it alight in a cynical effort to discredit their geopolitical foe. That's real advocacy for the oppressed and downtrodden. Nice display of cynicism! It's possible people who are worried about the situation in Xinjiang are sincerely worried about the situation there, while also wanting China to grow wealthier and more more powerful. In fact, I believe a hindrance towards a healthier society in China, as elsewhere, is the tribalism of the ruling majority.
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Apr 25, 2018 15:56
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hypnophant posted:True, much better to remain silent because no one will ever accuse the US of neglecting a given minority group or abdicating its global leadership if we refrain from interceding in a genocide The people with the power to intercede don't give a single gently caress about the Uighurs, and I remain unconvinced those who feel compelled to speak out on their behalf from behind a screen in the West do either.
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Apr 25, 2018 15:56
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Nice display of cynicism! It's possible people who are worried about the situation in Xinjiang are sincerely worried about the situation there, while also wanting China to grow wealthier and more more powerful. In fact, I believe a hindrance towards a healthier society in China, as elsewhere, is the tribalism of the ruling majority. Yeah all they have to do is take the propaganda fueled sanctimony of white liberals seriously and China will adopt the Nordic model some day.
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Apr 25, 2018 16:00
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Bathtub Cheese posted:The people with the power to intercede don't give a single gently caress about the Uighurs, and I remain unconvinced those who feel compelled to speak out on their behalf from behind a screen in the West do either. Given that "the people with the power to intercede" are the Chinese authorities, this is probably the truest thing you'll say today. Regardless, it's still worthwhile to speak out lest someone interpret silence as consent or even tacit approval, another accusation that has never been leveled against the US
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Apr 25, 2018 16:00
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Bathtub Cheese posted:The people with the power to intercede don't give a single gently caress about the Uighurs, and I remain unconvinced those who feel compelled to speak out on their behalf from behind a screen in the West do either. The first part is true, the second part simply indicates you have subscribed, unwittingly and likely unquestioningly, to the world view of another, equally cynical order of "people with power to intercede". If you only allow yourself to view things through the lens of politics you have lost perspective on political issues. Bathtub Cheese posted:Yeah all they have to do is take the propaganda fueled sanctimony of white liberals seriously and China will adopt the Nordic model some day. This is a shamefully mediocre attempt at evasion. There is a legitimate problem with racial tension in China, and it would still exist even if all the white liberals hosed off to the hippy pastures on the dark side of the moon tomorrow. Only the Chinese can fix this problem in the long run, and only by a slow process involving education and exposure to the view points of the oppressed. But to take the fact that "white liberals can't fix a problem" and draw from it the conclusion "the problem can't be fixed and should be ignored" does not indicate great things about your outlook on the world. Heithinn Grasida fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Apr 25, 2018 |
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Apr 25, 2018 16:00
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hypnophant posted:Given that "the people with the power to intercede" are the Chinese authorities, this is probably the truest thing you'll say today. Regardless, it's still worthwhile to speak out lest someone interpret silence as consent or even tacit approval, another accusation that has never been leveled against the US Heithinn Grasida posted:The first part is true, the second part simply indicates you have subscribed, unwittingly and likely unquestioningly, to the world view of another, equally cynical order of "people with power to intercede". If you only allow yourself to view things through the lens of politics you have lost perspective on political issues. This is a pot kettle attack, since you're just taking the other side at face value. The choice to speak out is political in the absence of an effective course of action. This is how the FP establishment subverts good intentions and puts them to work toward cynical ends.
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Apr 25, 2018 16:10
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Bathtub Cheese posted:The people with the power to intercede don't give a single gently caress about the Uighurs, and I remain unconvinced those who feel compelled to speak out on their behalf from behind a screen in the West do either. Maybe the politicians do give a gently caress when it’s convenient and profitable. R Well I’m kind of from the West and kind of not? I am actually posting in China with a state sanctioned VPN through China Unicom connecting to the HK servers. There are actually a lot of Han people from the PRC including some of my coworkers and friends that are quite sympathetic towards and them and do not like how the party treats them and the country. Whereas a good friend of mine joined the party during university for a better resume goes apeshit about USA / THAAD / DL / her rising party membership dues. Oh she spent a year and half picking fruit in New Zealand and loved the clean air, water and living in suburbia. My father in law is technically a party member and he has been press ganged to attend retiree committee events every 2 weeks ever Xijinping came in power. His neighborhood even have stuck a small party sticker on the corner of his neighborhood association poster. He’s not that interested in these events but there’s no easy way out. Poor guy, he joined for a better job and leniency for his dads treatment in prison for being a KMT tax auditor. Father in law is sympathetic to the treatment of Uighurs and Tibetans. He has been to both places and seen first hand Han Chauvinism and Ignorance
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Apr 25, 2018 16:16
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Bathtub Cheese posted:This is a pot kettle attack, since you're just taking the other side at face value. The choice to speak out is political in the absence of an effective course of action. This is how the FP establishment subverts good intentions and puts them to work toward cynical ends. Lol so the US is hypocritical if we speak out, hypocritical if we stay silent, hypocritical if we take action, hypocritical if we do nothing, and the FP establishment is what's cynical here?
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Apr 25, 2018 16:18
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Heithinn Grasida posted:But to take the fact that "white liberals can't fix a problem" and draw from it the conclusion "the problem can't be fixed and should be ignored" does not indicate great things about your outlook on the world. It could obviously be better but remaining a useful idiot for people with no interest in making it so isn't going to lead anywhere productive. The terms of the debate and the legitimacy of the information should not be set by American propaganda, then handwaved or smokescreened with insults when this is brought up. The accusations of bad faith, being a "wumao", etc are especially hypocritical in this context.
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Apr 25, 2018 16:21
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hypnophant posted:the US is hypocritical You're almost on to something.
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Apr 25, 2018 16:24
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I don’t like US foreign policy much nor do I like the US foreign policy establishment. I’m quite sympathetic to the treatment of minorities in China. Heck I can see the slow erosion of HK Cantonese culture and tradition. But I’m open to new Chinese immigrants and people moving in to Hong Kong. I’m not white at all and have been accused of being a white dude in this thread by Pevan who then called me Uncle Wongstan. Wish I could had banged more white girls though, dating and hooking up with them was hard. And liberal in USA is like being a right winger in Europe. Maybe a centrist in Canada.
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Apr 25, 2018 16:26
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Bathtub Cheese posted:This is a pot kettle attack, since you're just taking the other side at face value. The choice to speak out is political in the absence of an effective course of action. This is how the FP establishment subverts good intentions and puts them to work toward cynical ends. This is a better dodge than before, but still fairly transparent. You haven't denied the issue. Do you believe it exists or not? If you don't believe there is ethnic tension in China, lets not even talk about fake news, lets just say you've either never been there, your Chinese is abysmal, you're a Han supremacist or you're out of touch with reality. I assume you're not denying the problem exists because you have enough of a grasp on reasonable discourse that you can't. If you believe the issue exists, why is it political to bring it up? Because "your side" doesn't want to? Ethnic tension is real. If Beijing would prefer to not acknowledge it, they are the ones politicizing the issue, not liberal westerners who are well informed about China and capable of taking a nuanced view. No racial problem will ever improve if people don't agitate about it. Western liberals can't effectively start that agitation, but by keeping up awareness of the problem, we can offer some measure of validation to those who do. Note, I don't think sensation anti-China articles from the NYT are very helpful and typical Western media has serious issues in its dealings with the country. And the CIA is just as much our enemy in this issue as the CPC. But that doesn't somehow absolve Beijing of all wrong. Nor does the fact that direct action is useless mean that the correct thing is to completely turn our eyes from injustice and be silent. There is a problem and there is a rational path towards resolving it. If you accept that, you have to accept that people should have the freedom to speak about the problem. If you deny it, you're either deluded or completely given over to cynicism.
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Apr 25, 2018 16:30
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