|
We needs cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars because we need cars... But bikes and public transportation aren't feasible. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 16:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 10:23 |
|
|
That was the PERFECT number of because we need cars Could have used another 171, maybe even 172 But bikes and public transportation aren't feasibles.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 16:21
|
|
|
Baronash posted:Who qualifies in this "a lot of Americans" group? Cause this is like the 3rd or 4th time in the past couple weeks I've seen someone in D&D say how "a lot of Americans" can't fathom some simple concept that exists elsewhere. quote:Like, I can fathom the existence of grocery delivery services and robust public transportation systems just fine, and it's cool that those are both available in a country that is literally smaller than Chicagoland. My ability to comprehend a car-less existence doesn't suddenly make it a feasible option in cities or suburbs that were designed 50-100 years ago with point to point car travel in mind.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 16:31
|
|
|
Re:bike feasibility, it's very important to distinguish between "I can't bike because it just doesn't work for me right now" (totally reasonable, almost all bike infrastructure in the US is garbage), vs "I can't bike because lol bikes are toys, cars and nothing but cars 4ever" (eat a dick). The latter sentiment is the real impediment here.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 16:55
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Yeah thanks for your input dude biking 50 miles a day in triple digit temps sounds awesome why don't more people do that??? I routinely bicycled 14 miles to/from University in Richmond Virginia, and my commute in Cologne was 29 miles to Dusseldorf. Additionally I bicycle in Iceland, where the weather puts anything in the US to shame. the "wah wah" american exceptionalism of why bikes won't work are on full display here, just like I said. Cicero posted:Re:bike feasibility, it's very important to distinguish between "I can't bike because it just doesn't work for me right now" (totally reasonable, almost all bike infrastructure in the US is garbage), vs "I can't bike because lol bikes are toys, cars and nothing but cars 4ever" (eat a dick). The latter sentiment is the real impediment here. Exactly. There are obviously cases where a bike is literally impossible, but far more people could use it than do, and laziness/convenience/car-culture are huge reasons as to why. poopinmymouth fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Apr 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 16:56
|
|
|
poopinmymouth posted:I routinely bicycled 14 miles to/from University in Richmond Virginia, and my commute in Cologne was 29 miles to Dusseldorf. Additionally I bicycle in Iceland, where the weather puts anything in the US to shame. When it comes to day-to-day personal transportation decisions, people are pretty rational, especially in aggregate. If they're not biking somewhere, it's probably because biking there loving sucks.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:00
|
|
|
Cicero posted:Nah, even most Dutchies ain't gonna bike 20+ km each way for a commute, plus the infrastructure in the US really is dangerous for cyclists overall, not to mention the culture: there are parts of the country where people will randomly throw beer/soda cans at you for having the audacity to be on a bike. So it's physically impossible to increase the amount of people who use bicycles instead of (even just a portion) their current car use? In every country including the USA?
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:06
|
|
|
The last year before I moved to Germany I was mostly bike commuting in the bay area and I got hit twice by cars, including once with my son on my bike (did that guy get a ticket for not bothering to look before he turned and t-boned me? of course not lol, this is America). And this is in an area that's still definitely above average in bike support by US standards. Dumbass "well you just gotta BOOTSTRAPS YOUR BIKE HARDER" rhetoric isn't gonna fix how dangerous it is. It takes education and enforcement, and above all, engineering. poopinmymouth posted:So it's physically impossible to increase the amount of people who use bicycles instead of (even just a portion) their current car use? In every country including the USA? Your position is the same as conservatives yelling at poor black people, "well maybe just don't do drugs, maybe just go to college!" ignoring everything that stands in their way and makes it an actually complicated and difficult-to-fix situation. Shame-yelling people into doing better when there are structural problems impeding them doesn't work. edit: also I'm not saying the amount of biking can't be increased. I'm saying that in order to do that, you need to make biking better, which is technically straightforward but politically really hard. Cicero fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Apr 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:10
|
|
|
No but you see riding your kids to school through golf ball sized hail is perfectly reasonable because in Dusseldorf... US regional planning, where there even is any, is awful. Denser housing and sane roads need to be a thing before biking everywhere is going to be a reasonable option for the majority of people. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Apr 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:18
|
|
|
poopinmymouth posted:Additionally I bicycle in Iceland, where the weather puts anything in the US to shame. Just to be clear, Detroit is colder in the winter and hotter in the summer than Reykjavik. Weather-wise, Iceland is easymode cycling compared to a significant part of the interior of the US. Also, I have biked in both Detroit and Reykjavik, and the experiences are nothing alike. a foolish pianist fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Apr 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:20
|
|
|
a foolish pianist posted:Just to be clear, SE Michigan is colder in the winter and hotter in the summer than Reykjavik. Weather-wise, Iceland is easymode cycling compared to a significant part of the interior of the US. I realized that as a typed it, you're right. I don't want to shame people into biking, but when looking at looming climate change, health problems, and remembering just how awesome biking has been for my own life, it's really sad how few people consider bicycling as a viable option (and will often use easily fixed problems as their excuse). We have a car for our family for longer trips, rain, etc, but even in Iceland there are nice sunny days where it makes perfect sense to pull out a two wheeled vehicle and get some fresh air and not pollute. I don't see why pushes can't be made to encourage more people to bicycle, and to ameliorate the problems with doing so that exist currently.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:24
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:No but you see riding your kids to school through golf ball sized hail is perfectly reasonable because in Dusseldorf... quote:What Oulu makes up for in moderation due to its proximity to the ocean it loses in lack of sunlight thanks to being 120 miles south of the Arctic Circle. The mercury in Winnipeg is higher over the summer and dips lower in midwinter but experiences average daytime winter temperatures within four degrees of Oulu. At 160–175 days of snow coverage each year (pdf), Oulu’s number of days with snow on the ground is higher than Winnipeg’s average of 132. Yet the differences in bicycle usage between the two cities are stark. poopinmymouth posted:I realized that as a typed it, you're right. Cicero fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Apr 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:24
|
|
|
poopinmymouth posted:I don't want to shame people into biking, but when looking at looming climate change, health problems, and remembering just how awesome biking has been for my own life, it's really sad how few people consider bicycling as a viable option (and will often use easily fixed problems as their excuse). maybe you dont mind being struck by motorists, but i do, and i would rather that not happen to me thanks
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:34
|
|
|
Cicero posted:Re:bike feasibility, it's very important to distinguish between "I can't bike because it just doesn't work for me right now" (totally reasonable, almost all bike infrastructure in the US is garbage), vs "I can't bike because lol bikes are toys, cars and nothing but cars 4ever" (eat a dick). The latter sentiment is the real impediment here. This kind of discussion is always a huge pain because so many people can't make that distinction, and as a result lots of people end up getting mad at each other for no reason.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:35
|
|
|
Squalid posted:This kind of discussion is always a huge pain because so many people can't make that distinction, and as a result lots of people end up getting mad at each other for no reason. also why it's pointless to try to have a thread about urban planning in d&d because it will always, without fail, devolve into a screaming match about how cities are a worse place to live than suburbs or suburbs are a worse place to live than cities
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:36
|
|
|
Cicero posted:There's nothing wrong with it, it's a perfectly fine idea as long as you realize that by itself it probably won't do very much. Now, advertising/encouragement in conjunction with building out better infrastructure, that's a great idea. Just don't expect people to somehow bootstraps their way through "I could easily get hit by a car and die". That's not something you can just handwave away. That said, I completely agree with poopinmymouth's position that biking is good for every measurable part of our lives and future. If I could safely bike 10 miles round trip to drop off and pick up my son at daycare, I would.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:37
|
|
|
Cicero posted:Weather is actually a much smaller impediment to biking than infrastructure (and probably land use). Okay sure, nobody wants to bike through hail, but hail is pretty rare compared to rain and snow, and the latter two are deal-with-able. Exhibit A for dealing with snow: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/feb/12/ice-cycles-northerly-world-cities-winter-bicycle-revolution Sure, I know it would take as much time and energy as private cars have taken to be embedded as the defacto way of transportation. I just was commenting on how funny/sad I find hearing excuses on "why a bike won't work for me" when I see someone biking in that exact scenario on my ride to work.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:38
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:also why it's pointless to try to have a thread about urban planning in d&d because it will always, without fail, devolve into a screaming match about how cities are a worse place to live than suburbs or suburbs are a worse place to live than cities
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:39
|
|
|
The thing is, even bike and public transportation utopias still do a ton with cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita Like the US has 9 cars for every 10 people and other countries have less, but like Japan and Spain and The Netherlands and Luxembourg and countries like that that are normally spoken about as the tip top of some sort of alternative all have over 5 per 10 people, so it's certainly a lower number but not even half as low. People still use cars in the alternative paradise, not as much, but still "more people use them then don't" in most of those places. Hong Kong seems like the only example of really stomping out car use entirely through public transportation but it's a 'country' that is a single city that is like 14 miles across.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:46
|
|
|
Cheesus posted:By "too long", you mean "two days", right? I had a roommate who was the same. One evening he noticed that we had a couple of cartons of milk that had a best-before day tomorrow. So suddenly we needed to drink several liters of milk before the clock strikes 12 and the milk turns back into a pumpkin. I have several times had lunch meats in the fridge where, while I'm putting the last slices on a sandwich, I look at the label and it says they expired over a week ago. Whoops.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:48
|
|
|
poopinmymouth posted:Sure, I know it would take as much time and energy as private cars have taken to be embedded as the defacto way of transportation. I just was commenting on how funny/sad I find hearing excuses on "why a bike won't work for me" when I see someone biking in that exact scenario on my ride to work. If some guy runs a marathon to work each day on the interstate dodging cars that doesn't invalidate me saying I can't run to work because it is too far and dangerous
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:51
|
|
|
Cheesus posted:And if the next suggestion is, "Why can't Americans create safe biking infrastructure?" keep in mind our current FYGM mindset. Nobody at the top wants to spend a dime on anything leaving the dwindling middle class holding a bigger part of the bag for all of our services. We barely want to/can pay for car road up-keep (but of course bitch when they're in such poo poo shape); asking us to add safe bike infrastructure is like asking us to grow another head. Much of America really is pushing hard to add new bike infrastructure, even in lots of mid sized cities that are extremely car centric today. Turns out its a lot cheaper painting a bike line on an existing road than it is to build a new highway. It's progressing slower than it should but I think bikes are going to be an increasingly important part of American transit for the foreseeable future. It's coming up from a pretty low point but even a lot of small towns and subburban areas are really pushing the bike infrastructure.  Owlofcreamcheese posted:The thing is, even bike and public transportation utopias still do a ton with cars: Thanks OOCC, for refuting a point nobody made or even implied
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:51
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:The thing is, even bike and public transportation utopias still do a ton with cars: yeah, you beat that strawman get em good, that'll show him
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:51
|
|
|
Squalid posted:
Like the whole reason people are talking about this is people saying "instead of electric cars we should have public transport!" but there isn't really a country on earth where public transport has really removed the concept of cars, so clearly we should have public transport since it does REDUCE the number of cars, but not really that much and we still have cars, which should probably be electric instead of gas
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:53
|
|
|
Squalid posted:Much of America really is pushing hard to add new bike infrastructure, even in lots of mid sized cities that are extremely car centric today. Turns out its a lot cheaper painting a bike line on an existing road than it is to build a new highway. It's progressing slower than it should but I think bikes are going to be an increasingly important part of American transit for the foreseeable future.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 17:56
|
|
|
Vegetable posted:Bicycles are almost purely a city thing, surely. That map might as well correlate with how quickly cities in each state have grown. i can tell at a glance it's not related to city growth so it's probably related to state and local level initiatives to increase bike share within cities, versus natural growth bike commuting is such a small modal share that even a modest increase will stand out on a map
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:03
|
|
|
Wheany posted:I had a roommate who was the same. One evening he noticed that we had a couple of cartons of milk that had a best-before day tomorrow. So suddenly we needed to drink several liters of milk before the clock strikes 12 and the milk turns back into a pumpkin. I mean, I got violent food poisoning as a kid from pasteurized milk that had hit the expiration date the day I drank it, and so to this day I'm neurotic about drinking milk before the date and pitching the remainder the day of. Especially since I have no sense of smell, so I can't do the simple sniff test everyone else can do to detect non-obvious spoilage in food.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:12
|
|
|
Vegetable posted:Bicycles are almost purely a city thing, surely. That map might as well correlate with how quickly cities in each state have grown.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:13
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:A few large supermarket chains had this for a while, there was a separate section for ugly fruit and veggies at 30-50% off. I always bought those because I don't care how straight my cucumber is because I'm not sticking it up my butt, but it seems that this didn't take off and I haven't seen it available in a while. Those imperfect fruit and veg tend to go to farmer's markets now since the distributor will make more money.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:13
|
|
|
Vegetable posted:Bicycles are almost purely a city thing, surely. That map might as well correlate with how quickly cities in each state have grown. I don't think so. The subburb I grew up in for example has greatly expanded the bike lanes, which is great for kids commuting to school for example. It probably is concentrated in cities, but even small local cities are really getting into building up bike infrastructure. Again not necessarily for ideological reasons, but because they realized it's a lot cheaper than other options. http://littlevillagemag.com/iowa-city-bike-plan-include-expanding-access-to-facilities-and-programming/ quote:The Iowa City Council got an update on the master plan during its Tuesday work session. The plan includes creating new bike paths, improving bike lanes, providing educational materials and creating outreach programs. The plan projects 66.4 additional miles of bike lanes and trails constructed through 2027 for a total cost of nearly $14.5 million. That figure does not include year-round or long-term maintenance such as snow removal or pavement resurfacing. Even the small rural town I live in now is greatly increasing the extent of bike lanes, though admittedly it is a college town. In fact I spent the morning doing a spot of maintenance on my brakes before riding into the office Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like the whole reason people are talking about this is people saying "instead of electric cars we should have public transport!" but there isn't really a country on earth where public transport has really removed the concept of cars, so clearly we should have public transport since it does REDUCE the number of cars, but not really that much and we still have cars, which should probably be electric instead of gas Buddy nobody is going to stop the pudgy IT clerks like yourself from driving. We just want to provide good alternatives for everybody else.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:14
|
|
|
Squalid posted:Buddy nobody is going to stop the pudgy IT clerks like yourself from driving. We just want to provide good alternatives for everybody else. I've driven less than 50,000 miles in the last 15 years. But even in first world countries with good public transportation car ownership is still high, public transportation and bikes augments car ownerships, not replaces it. No matter how many buses we run people still are going to own a lot of cars and it's still worth it for those to be electric cars.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:27
|
|
|
The other thing that a lot of people miss is that, even if you own and use a car for some things, it's positive to make changes that mean you don't have to use a car for everything. I use a car for getting to work because transit doesn't run out there, but I walk to the grocery store, and to go out to restaurants, bars, movies, etc. The fact that my car isn't on the road for all of those activities is still a cool and good thing even if I still have a car.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:40
|
|
|
Squalid posted:Turns out its a lot cheaper painting a bike line on an existing road than it is to build a new highway. In my mind, "safe infrastructure" involves either a physically separate road/trail or some kind of barrier to prevent motor vehicles from encroaching into the bike lane. That may not be possible physically inside a city but I'd expect cars to be moving much slower there than the 50-60 MPH I experience in my rural roads. My local state highway recently touted adding a bike lane during their recent renovations. It was just widening the shoulder and not even bothering to spend the money to paint a lane on the outside of it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:45
|
|
|
I'd say small towns are probably better places for bike infrastructure than cities, at least for rapid adoption, because there's not as much entrenched infrastructure to modify. It took more than 5 months for them to put in the bike lane behind my apartment building, and they didn't have to repave anything. It does have me considering switching from transit to a bike however. The only issue is the upfront cost. Hard to find bikes used for my frame.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:46
|
|
|
poopinmymouth posted:Yeah the best is watching Americans claim the reasons they could not bicycle and remembering seeing 2+ people commuting that same day in identical situations: need a suit to work? shower there if you get sweaty or buy an electric. How many workplaces have shower facilities? My office doesn't.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:49
|
|
|
LeJackal posted:How many workplaces have shower facilities? My office doesn't. Maybe they mean sink washing in the restroom or something.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:52
|
|
|
Kerning Chameleon posted:Maybe they mean sink washing in the restroom or something. Well you'll save commute time when HR finds out and terminates your employment...
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 18:58
|
|
|
Cheesus posted:I'm sorry, but a painted lane on a road does not a make a "safe bike infrastructure". I was simplifying ease of construction for rhetorical effect but yes obviously there's a bit more to revamping America's infrastructure than just repainting roads. I'm not an expert so I won't even try to get into details but there's a lot of balancing with regard to cost, safety, parking and etc.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 19:00
|
|
|
LeJackal posted:How many workplaces have shower facilities? My office doesn't. Many have gyms or if you're in a large city you work in a large building that has a gym attached... its another issue.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 19:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 10:23 |
|
|
hobbesmaster posted:Many have gyms or if you're in a large city you work in a large building that has a gym attached... its another issue. Having a gym at work is absolutely not even remotely common.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2018 19:07
|
|