(Thread IKs:
Captain Foo)
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I feel like people forget how technically bad perandus was. We can argue until hell freezes over about the economy which I know we will never agree on, but go back and look on videos from perandus. Big packs lagged out even the best of computers. It was completely horrible to play. Beastiary: if you include all the fixes made after the first few weeks it's pretty decent. You get pretty good loot rewards, the beast crafting is incredibly powerful and you can skip content if you dont want to interact with it. There's still a bunch of QoL issues but this is still a fairly small indie studio so that's to be expected. Assuming they keep it in the base game and keep working on it, over all it should be a very good addition to the game. If you also add in the baseline game changes made to 3.2 I would say the league ended up more good than bad.
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Apr 26, 2018 10:04
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TheRat posted:If you also add in the baseline game changes made to 3.2 I would say the league ended up more good than bad. yes, that saves the league from being bad it just means once you have explored these changes there isn't much reason to play further (which is fine imo, I played 5 alts to 80-90, killed T15 elder twice and three legendary beasts, thats roughly par for me)
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Apr 26, 2018 10:11
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Baneling Butts posted:Oh my god yes. Trying to catch beasts was like a minute of panicked running around, avoiding mobs, trying to hit the guy enough but not hard enough to kill him outright, trying to keep my cursor on the beast to see where his health was at, throwing the net but oops opened my character stats instead! And now it's dead. gently caress. Yeah, that's been my experience as well. Usually you can just throw a net and one shot everything, but some red beasts are just ridiculous (even with frost bomb).
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Apr 26, 2018 10:32
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TheRat posted:I feel like people forget how technically bad perandus was. We can argue until hell freezes over about the economy which I know we will never agree on, but go back and look on videos from perandus. Big packs lagged out even the best of computers. It was completely horrible to play. Perandus lag was very hit and miss. I only knew it was a thing from all the bitching. Definitely not running the best of computers, either.
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Apr 26, 2018 10:58
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Putting the bestiary mechanics aside I really liked the builds I played this league and yeah the 3.2 changes were cool so overall a decent league for me personally.
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Apr 26, 2018 13:06
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MMF Freeway posted:Putting the bestiary mechanics aside I really liked the builds I played this league and yeah the 3.2 changes were cool so overall a decent league for me personally. Yeah. The bestiary idea is fun, but trying to track which beasts you have and which ones you need and which crafts are even doing is a real chore. Hopefully they'll refine it if they bring it back at some point. Overall, I really enjoyed the builds I played this league: Tectonic Slam Juggernaut - I only got into white maps with my starter before rolling an alt. It just felt too much like every other "hit all the dudes in front of you" build, but a bit tankier. The damage is also really swingy, since a lot of it depends on your current number of endurance charges, which mostly come from you getting hit. CwC Lightning Tendrils/Arc - Lots of fun, makes big pretty electric explosions. The biggest issue I had is that there's some lag time between hitting the skill key and things starting to die -- which is enough to get popped by a particularly nasty pack or elite. Red tier maps were pretty deadly, and the upgrades to add survivability would have been very expensive. Summon Spectre Solar Guard - I used a hardcore flavor of this build, but changed a few things to add DPS. Totally capable of running most maps without fear, but I occasionally had issues with specific map bosses -- especially ones with a big-damage teleport, or that loving lightning beam rear end in a top hat in... Torture Chamber? I forget. Tornado Shot/Barrage Flask Junkie - My current project, using a Doomfletch Life build. The map clearing speed is insane. Press a button, everything dies. Unfortunately, even with the massive life pool, I often get one-shot by physical damage. I can't afford the Dying Sun or Taste of Hate yet (6L Doomfletch's Prisms are pricey!), so I'm using traditional methods of getting resists for now. It's super fun zooming around deleting map packs, but dying all the time is getting frustrating. I probably won't do another build this league. I've still never done a Righteous Fire character, but to get the proper gear I'd have to liquidate my other characters, which I really hate doing.
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Apr 26, 2018 13:45
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re: the dumb iir vs iiq for currency drops video: One important thing that really needs to me reiterated is how important is is to have some sort of super strict control, or some heretofore unavailable monster-by-monster drop logging. Why? Because there are so many drop mechanics that we don't have any actual information of that you wouldn't even think about, such as: 1) We don't know the iir/iiq increase of blue mobs (with or without bloodlines mods) 2) We don't know the iir/iiq increase of yellow mobs (with or without nemesis mods) 3) We don't know the iir/iiq increase of breaches. 4) We don't know the iir/iiq increase of abysses. 5) We don't even know the distribution of blue/yellow mobs in regular unmodified maps. And that's before we try to deal with the fact that he's using biscos.
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Apr 26, 2018 14:26
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Qwertycoatl posted:I guess that was true when it was written? Apparently I'm illiterate. I kept thinking that those were probably pretty important. I'm actually fairly sure I kept reading them as koams coral. Oh well. I seem to be doing alright on damage. If I can get lucky I can pull it off.
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Apr 26, 2018 15:29
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I think Bestiary would be good if the nets were permanent debuffs. They wouldn't stun the monster anymore obviously but you wouldn't have to get a precise estimate of how long it takes to finish off a red mob, and there would no longer be a way to gently caress up the fight other than dying.
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Apr 26, 2018 18:59
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McFrugal posted:I think Bestiary would be good if the nets were permanent debuffs. They wouldn't stun the monster anymore obviously but you wouldn't have to get a precise estimate of how long it takes to finish off a red mob, and there would no longer be a way to gently caress up the fight other than dying. That's what high level nets are for though. Red beasts are very easy to capture with thaum-nets
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Apr 26, 2018 19:00
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TheRat posted:I feel like people forget how technically bad perandus was. We can argue until hell freezes over about the economy which I know we will never agree on, but go back and look on videos from perandus. Big packs lagged out even the best of computers. It was completely horrible to play. I'm really curious about the Perandus economy, if you don't mind talking about it or linking to an analysis. The way various league mods impact the economy is really interesting to me; like, I started in Harbinger which gave me a really skewed impression of what high-tier maps were worth.
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Apr 26, 2018 19:05
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TheRat posted:That's what high level nets are for though. Red beasts are very easy to capture with thaum-nets Okay but the game doesn't actually TELL you this at any point. Also that doesn't help while leveling.
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Apr 26, 2018 19:10
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Attorney at Funk posted:I'm really curious about the Perandus economy, if you don't mind talking about it or linking to an analysis. The way various league mods impact the economy is really interesting to me; like, I started in Harbinger which gave me a really skewed impression of what high-tier maps were worth. The long and short of it is that Cadiro would so frequently show up offering good deals that the price of the most popular chase uniques was way low that league. I think that generally people liked that aspect of it even if it didn't make for an overall healthy economy. I loved it personally, was the first league I got a linked up shavs.
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Apr 26, 2018 19:12
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I used steel nets 99% of the time, except for my very first bird boss kill which was before necro nets. Perandus didn't lag out my computer at the time (2500k/9600 4GB) either. I was however extremely poor that league because uniques were so drat cheap.
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Apr 26, 2018 19:13
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McFrugal posted:Also that doesn't help while leveling. Yes it does. Any 'oversized' net will make a beast capture at much higher hp threshold . Attorney at Funk posted:I'm really curious about the Perandus economy, if you don't mind talking about it or linking to an analysis. The way various league mods impact the economy is really interesting to me; like, I started in Harbinger which gave me a really skewed impression of what high-tier maps were worth. Basically perandus (along with the quad droprate change in 2.0.3) made top end unique value drop through the floor, and it never quite recovered. This meant finding big ticket items was a lot less rewarding, and it helped the ongoing polarisation of items being either worthless or worth a lot. We used to have a much smoother gradient of item value. People like to claim that it makes it easier for casual players to play builds, but I contend it's the opposite. Casual players now need to put in a lot more work to generate the currency to buy all the supporting items (rares, etc) you need because the top end items you always find when you grind are worth a lot less. It also kills most of the "HOLY gently caress I FOUND A VOID BATTERY I MADE 80EX" feeling. e: Vasudus posted:I was however extremely poor that league because uniques were so drat cheap. Ding ding ding e2: Another thing is that exalt-crafting is a lot more fun when you're swimming in exalts from a t1 drop. TheRat fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Apr 26, 2018 |
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Apr 26, 2018 19:15
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There's pluses and minuses - I don't play a ton each league and perandus let me play with Chase uniques for the first time. But good cheap rares were so hard to find in that league, comparatively. As a casual player I liked it as an interlude - overall one of my favorite leagues. Main gripe: no good bosses.
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Apr 26, 2018 19:30
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TheRat posted:Basically perandus (along with the quad droprate change in 2.0.3) made top end unique value drop through the floor, and it never quite recovered. This meant finding big ticket items was a lot less rewarding, and it helped the ongoing polarisation of items being either worthless or worth a lot. We used to have a much smoother gradient of item value. People like to claim that it makes it easier for casual players to play builds, but I contend it's the opposite. Casual players now need to put in a lot more work to generate the currency to buy all the supporting items (rares, etc) you need because the top end items you always find when you grind are worth a lot less. It also kills most of the "HOLY gently caress I FOUND A VOID BATTERY I MADE 80EX" feeling. Where does all this currency go or come from? People were finding the same number of exalts even if their gear no longer cost that much. If everybody's broke because the value of drops has tanked, how did people make their money, and where was that money spent?
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Apr 26, 2018 19:32
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Attorney at Funk posted:Where does all this currency go or come from? People were finding the same number of exalts even if their gear no longer cost that much. If everybody's broke because the value of drops has tanked, how did people make their money, and where was that money spent? You'd be surprised at the incredible amount of wealth that's concentrated on the top 0.01% or whatever. We're talking thousands of exalts, stacks of mirrors. Top players had to pay a lot more for their t1 toys back then. I feel a little bit sick typing this, but it was sort of trickle down.
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Apr 26, 2018 19:38
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TheRat posted:You'd be surprised at the incredible amount of wealth that's concentrated on the top 0.01% or whatever. We're talking thousands of exalts, stacks of mirrors. Top players had to pay a lot more for their t1 toys back then. I feel a little bit sick typing this, but it was sort of trickle down. The issue with that is those t1 toys were sometimes build enabling, and the "casuals" could never even come close to getting the currency to try them out. A 3-4ex shavs is obtainable for most people who play even a little bit, a 50ex+ shavs is not. Chase uniques that are super exciting when they drop is fun, but being able to actually use those uniques is also fun.
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Apr 26, 2018 19:49
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Cinara posted:The issue with that is those t1 toys were sometimes build enabling, and the "casuals" could never even come close to getting the currency to try them out. A 3-4ex shavs is obtainable for most people who play even a little bit, a 50ex+ shavs is not. Chase uniques that are super exciting when they drop is fun, but being able to actually use those uniques is also fun. It used to be a LOT easier to gear characters when uniques were valuable. Now it's easier to get t1 uniques, but the rest of your gear is orders of magnitude harder to buy. But as I said in my first post, people will never agree on this. I maintain that the changes makes the game easier for rich players (easier for me) and a lot harder for casuals and mid tier players.
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Apr 26, 2018 19:55
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Also, how many T1 items are actually build enabling? Mjolner and Cospri's? Anything else?
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Apr 26, 2018 20:01
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TheRat posted:It used to be a LOT easier to gear characters when uniques were valuable. Now it's easier to get t1 uniques, but the rest of your gear is orders of magnitude harder to buy. But as I said in my first post, people will never agree on this. I maintain that the changes makes the game easier for rich players (easier for me) and a lot harder for casuals and mid tier players. I'm with you. A plot of Item Quality vs. Cost shouldn't look like the graph of x^x, and isn't healthy for the game as a whole. edit: the difference is that T1 items have shifted from uniques to absolutely insanely broken rares which turn high-end content from "difficult but doable" to "effortless," allowing those with those insane items to amass wealth far more quickly and easily than those without.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:01
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TheRat posted:Also, how many T1 items are actually build enabling? Mjolner and Cospri's? Anything else? Shavs? I would say Kaoms but that's T2.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:06
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Vasudus posted:Shavs? Absolutely not. Solaris does the exact same thing as shavs, shavs is just numerically stronger. Kaoms is just a numerical buff, doesn't enable anything.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:07
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is shaper easier solo? we tried as 2 juggs and a PPVD and got killed :[ those telegraphs were hard for me to see in time because of all the poo poo the PPVD guy was making and i ended up running out of potions and dying at like 50% my gear is ok http://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/razzle/characters?characterName=razz_buys_mtx end life ends up being kinda low, like 5.8k atm POB says I do about 130k dps
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Apr 26, 2018 20:10
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Razzled posted:POB says I do about 130k dps That's going to make shaper very difficult. You probably want 3-400k to make shaper somewhat smooth.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:13
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pokchu posted:I'm with you. A plot of Item Quality vs. Cost shouldn't look like the graph of x^x, and isn't healthy for the game as a whole. If the level of power creep wasn't how it is then sure, but you don't need those insane T1 crafted rares to do any of the content in the game. Those items are not what let the wealthy get rich quickly, they are what they use their riches on. Also remember that it's not just t1 uniques that used to be expensive, even t2s were often tons of exalts if they were popular. They were just hit even harder by dropping 4x more often and are now just a few chaos. And holy poo poo the rest of your gear is not harder to buy. I can loving nearly SSF my way into guardians because you can get random rares that are more than good enough these days for almost nothing. You don't need perfect rolled poo poo, so if that's more expensive then it's your own drat fault for thinking you need it. This is all coming from someone who could still afford uniques at the old prices.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:15
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TheRat posted:That's going to make shaper very difficult. You probably want 3-400k to make shaper somewhat smooth. I don't know where to pick up more damage. Is my gem selection bad? Is Sunder just low damage in general? My next thought would be jewels, and maybe passive tree but I thought my passive choices were pretty standard for a 2h axe build
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Apr 26, 2018 20:15
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TheRat posted:It used to be a LOT easier to gear characters when uniques were valuable. Now it's easier to get t1 uniques, but the rest of your gear is orders of magnitude harder to buy. But as I said in my first post, people will never agree on this. I maintain that the changes makes the game easier for rich players (easier for me) and a lot harder for casuals and mid tier players. Except now casuals can get t1 uniques and clear maps super fast and thus generate guaranteed income instead of relying on t1 uniques that never drop to fund them. I prefer the former. Also power creep. Which means this argument can't even be had properly.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:16
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Is Mjolner really still a t1 drop?
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Apr 26, 2018 20:16
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Razzled posted:I don't know where to pick up more damage. Is my gem selection bad? Is Sunder just low damage in general? My next thought would be jewels, and maybe passive tree but I thought my passive choices were pretty standard for a 2h axe build Sorry I thought you were cyclone for some reason, I'm not sure how sunder dps scales to be honest so just ignore that comment. In general, you have a lot of dps potential in getting quality gems, maxing out gem levels, getting more flat physical damage on rings and amulet, and most of all getting a few more levels. The butchery notable next to marauder start will be a lot of damage, for instance.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:17
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Cinara posted:Also remember that it's not just t1 uniques that used to be expensive, even t2s were often tons of exalts if they were popular. We're saying this was a good thing. Cinara posted:And holy poo poo the rest of your gear is not harder to buy. I can loving nearly SSF my way into guardians because you can get random rares that are more than good enough these days for almost nothing. You don't need perfect rolled poo poo, so if that's more expensive then it's your own drat fault for thinking you need it. And how the christ are you making this out to be a valid argument for rares, but completely ignoring it for uniques? You dont need top tier uniques either, outside the extremely limited set of build enabling ones. TheRat fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Apr 26, 2018 |
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Apr 26, 2018 20:19
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I don't have any good ideas for making the price incline less steep throughout the power curve tho. You'd probably have to completely do away with rarity tiers, or break them into many more of them. edit: hot take: either remove league specific items entirely from temp leagues, or reintroduce them into the general loot pool
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Apr 26, 2018 20:29
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TheRat posted:Absolutely not. Solaris does the exact same thing as shavs, shavs is just numerically stronger. Kaoms is just a numerical buff, doesn't enable anything. It's easy to see how that happens, though. Like compare this post to your next one: TheRat posted:That's going to make shaper very difficult. You probably want 3-400k to make shaper somewhat smooth. This is just a straight numerical buff, right? It doesn't necessarily lock you out of playing a certain way, just playing that way smoothly and comfortably while accessing the entire game. But there's an invisible line here, the comfortable/uncomfortable divide, that gets conflated with the viable/nonviable divide we use to determine what's good or worth doing in a metagame sense. And that comfort line that everyone draws is what people reach for, I think, when they talk about being "enabled". You see the same thing from people who are so used to playing wanders or whatever that a build without Queen of the Forest just feels agonizingly slow to them. And this goes back to what you were talking about before, where Perandus inflicted long-term damage on the game's economy by permanently shifting the baseline of what players considered comfortable. In a game like PoE where playing quickly and efficiently is both powerful and satisfying, what's comfortable is sort of what's allowed. Attorney at Funk fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Apr 26, 2018 |
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Apr 26, 2018 20:47
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Attorney at Funk posted:It's easy to see how that happens, though. Like compare this post to your next one: That's a playground level disingenuous argument. You don't need to solo shaper to farm gear/currency or to make your build work. Jesus christ dude.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:51
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TheRat posted:That's a playground level disingenuous argument. You don't need to solo shaper to farm gear/currency or to make your build work. Jesus christ dude. But that's my point! Specifically that that line gets blurred because people take access to all the content for granted and we don't have a clear consensus on what "viable" means if not that.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:55
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I've been messing around with a tanky Spark LL Guardian build and would enjoy some advice since I'm pretty bad at builds https://pastebin.com/NTLwC5r4 a couple minor mistakes in there I forgot to change like the double Faster Casting on Conductivity but nothing big Gear-wise it's pretty unoptimized because I didn't want to make it perfect with the expensive poo poo already in it. Ideally I'd have a Watcher's Eye with some ES mods, 6L Spark, and obviously way better rares - they're pretty bare-bones. Some items I'm not sure about. I like Gifts from Above since I feel it adds a lot to the build but I'm not married to it. Kinda makes my sustain poo poo without the consecrated ground though. Choir was mostly because I wanted to try building with it, I'm not at all sure how it holds up for damage at all. The Lightning Bolt's at another 65k dps though which seems nice for bosses. I dunno what good Spark dps looks like, or how to get it with the LL Guardian's overly stretched passive tree and mandatory items. I usually make my builds for level 90 since I only reliably get to 92 or so but I couldn't even make myself go lower than 95 without getting too depressed at all the juicy poo poo I'm giving up within a single passive point's reach. I don't need to kill end-game bosses or T16s with it but it'd be nice if I could kill T11 bosses fine for example. My biggest worry about the build is sustain on bosses. I'm relying on 10% regen/sec plus the 30% burst from Time of Need every so often, and don't have the damage to rely on flasks being up. With them, 30k armor + Stibnite + 81% resists should be fine for regular mapping even in reds, but they'll probably fall off on bosses which could be iffy. Is there any real value in trying to figure out some better sustain?
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Apr 26, 2018 20:56
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No, build enabling has a very specific meaning. Making builds stronger, faster, safer is not it.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:57
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TheRat posted:No, build enabling has a very specific meaning. Making builds stronger, faster, safer is not it. It seems disingenuous to me to claim that nobody thinks a certain level of strength, speed, and safety is prerequisite for playing a build.
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Apr 26, 2018 20:59
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I think there's some confusion as to the difference between sufficient and necessary
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Apr 26, 2018 21:01
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