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Fojar38 posted:Yeah South Korea should definitely form the basis of their security arrangements on the belief that none of the stronger nearby regional powers would ever attack them because reasons.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:07
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Orthanc6 posted:friend of mine made this: Your friend is talented. It's a nice break from all the doom and gloom over peace talks.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:08
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Rent-A-Cop posted:That's probably more reasonable than basing it on the plot of Command & Conquer 5: Kane goes Korean. Americans have invaded literally a half dozen or more countries since 2001 but its actually the mythical villian china AND russia that's the bad guy here
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Apr 28, 2018 02:12
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Rent-A-Cop posted:That's probably more reasonable than basing it on the plot of Command & Conquer 5: Kane goes Korean. Gentle reminder that Russia invaded Europe 4 years ago.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:13
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I think if Russia starts rolling armored divisions down to the 38th parallel someone might notice. The only reason the DPRK exists is because the Chinese army intervened in the war, as did the Soviet air force.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:14
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Peven Stan posted:Americans have invaded literally a half dozen or more countries since 2001 but its actually the mythical villian china AND russia that's the bad guy here Russia literally invaded and annexed territory from an European country less than 5 years ago.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:16
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I learned to stop trusting liberals on this crap since they always fall in line for armed military intervention anyway. My hippy 7th grade english teacher pulled us in for a special lesson a month or two before the iraq war and informed us that we needed to invade and liberate the iraqi women from misogynist saddam, who was using rape as a tool of coercion in prisons. Intervention gets sold the same way cars get sold- there's a pitch for every demographic profile except the people who don't want a war. Conspiratiorist posted:Russia literally invaded and annexed territory from an European country less than 5 years ago. Sounds like whataboutism to me, where do I go to hit the whataboutism button that liberals love to mash
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Apr 28, 2018 02:20
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The US presence in Korea is basically a tripwire force, and it has outlived its usefulness. The ROK is perfectly capable of raining fire and death over their Northern cousins should they choose to. They don't need a big line of bored 19 year-old Americans standing on the DMZ to guarantee enough pissed off voters to get Uncle Sam involved in a potential war. Reducing the US presence to strategic bases away from the DMZ will make everyone involved happier with no loss of security for anyone. Sounds like you're stumbling into candidate Trump's strategy for South Korea and Japan to develop their own nukes and take care of their own security. You can't withdraw from South Korea without calling into question our commitment to Japan, and certainly without making any other countries looking to hedge their bets against China feel like we can't be trusted to stick around. Obviously if you're a devoted anti-imperialist you see the US voluntarily giving up its position in East Asia as a good thing, but even more moderate skeptics of US interventions against hostile countries can see reasons to maintain bases in friendly countries for defensive purposes/maintaining trade lanes, etc. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Apr 28, 2018 |
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Apr 28, 2018 02:26
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Sinteres posted:Sounds like you're stumbling into candidate Trump's strategy for South Korea and Japan to develop their own nukes and take care of their own security. You can't withdraw from South Korea without calling into question our commitment to Japan, and certainly without making any other countries looking to hedge their bets against China feel like we can't be trusted to stick around. South Korea and Japan are allies to the US, but not allies with each other, making America's situation tenuous at best. Someone striking at Korea would not get Japan involved, and a strike towards Japan would not get Koreans onboard to defend the Japanese either. It's this kind of hilariously bad world police foreign policy that's going to really bite this country in the rear end.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:32
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Peven Stan posted:South Korea and Japan are allies to the US, but not allies with each other, making America's situation tenuous at best. Someone striking at Korea would not get Japan involved, and a strike towards Japan would not get Koreans onboard to defend the Japanese either. It doesn't really matter if they're allies with each other; they're both extremely dependent on the US, and the US likes it that way. They're both capable of defending themselves (though arguably South Korea would be more likely to fold than to do so), but Japan in particular is super important for maintaining US interests in the region, and while walking away from South Korea wouldn't offend Japan from a 'you betrayed our ally!!!" perspective, since they don't give a poo poo about South Korea, it would make them wonder if a US that walks away from one of OUR allies like that might do the same to them when it becomes convenient.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:35
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Peven Stan posted:Sounds like whataboutism to me, where do I go to hit the whataboutism button that liberals love to mash Look at yourself in the mirror, buddy. America's military adventurism is gross, but Russia is definitely the most hostile, destabilizing actor in our brief history of modern geopolitics. Fact is, US and allies global force projection is what keeping both those countries from more aggressively expanding their sphere of influence - you can bet your rear end they jump in whenever America cedes ground, and they aren't more benevolent overlords. It's disgusting, but that's how the world is.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:37
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Conspiratiorist posted:America's military adventurism is gross, but Russia is definitely the most hostile, destabilizing actor in our brief history of modern geopolitics. Did you just miss us completely destroying the Middle East?
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Apr 28, 2018 02:46
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I must have. When did that happen?
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Apr 28, 2018 02:49
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Conspiratiorist posted:I must have. When did that happen? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq
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Apr 28, 2018 02:59
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Conspiratiorist posted:Look at yourself in the mirror, buddy. *intervenes in latin america almost 100 times* *countless involvement in the middle east, including the one that installed saddam hussein* Why would Russia do this to us???
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Apr 28, 2018 03:00
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It can be equally true that the US military presence provides the US with conventional options for handling a crisis, acting like a tripwire force and so on while also being arguably not being particularly useful in that role or the role of defending the ROK from attack. From the US's perspective that yes, has roots in vague concepts of American Empire/Pax Americana, it's useful to have that force there for valid geopolitical regional concerns; and why removing those troops, may be problematic diplomatically and politically without a strong consensus by Korea and Japan that they view those troops as a liability. Withdrawing them unilaterally can be seen as abandonment, which would have ramifications and be unstable. From China's perspective even if the cold conventional on paper calculus is convincing that those troops aren't a particular threat to Chinese sovereignty of interests; they are still a powerful symbol of the American presence in the region, a dominant one. Their withdrawal could be a powerful symbol to the Chinese leadership and to their domestic audience; a trip wire force is also psychological, even if those troops aren't threatening on their own.
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Apr 28, 2018 03:11
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Meanwhile I was driving to the grocery the other day and I saw 3 white junkies shoot up in broad daylight on the sidewalk. That American empire really pays for itself, all it cost was the rust belt crumbling into a heroin den
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Apr 28, 2018 03:41
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https://twitter.com/chasemadar/status/989956473336877057?s=21
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Apr 28, 2018 03:43
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Peven Stan posted:Americans have invaded literally a half dozen or more countries since 2001 but its actually the mythical villian china AND russia that's the bad guy here Go into a bar and say this to any Tibetian expats you find. They will do to you what I wish I could, distance permitting. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 28, 2018 03:45
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WarpedNaba posted:Go into a bar and say this to any Tibetian expats you find. Watch out buddy, the guy who thinks Asians who aren't Han, Yamato, or Korean are "jungle" people gets mad when you point out Tibet.
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Apr 28, 2018 03:50
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WarpedNaba posted:Go into a bar and say this to any Tibetian expats you find. Yeah I'm going to go and provoke a bunch of CIA assets, might as well go into a cop bar and shout "gently caress THE POLICE"
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Apr 28, 2018 03:50
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Is this what our species is reduced to I am not in the mood for mysteries today.
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Apr 28, 2018 03:53
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China and Russia (and the Soviet Union before it) are just as much imperialist powers as the United States hth
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Apr 28, 2018 04:00
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edit: Actually, maybe that's a little too on the nose for here.
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Apr 28, 2018 04:10
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Pretty hosed up how the CIA used their time machine to invent Tibet in 605 AD to trick 隋煬帝 and his court.
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Apr 28, 2018 04:12
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https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/990068491783983104 https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/990073703487635458 Fun fact: 16 million South Koreans participated in the candlelight revolution, about 1/3rd of the population https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/revolution-by-candlelight-how-south-koreans-toppled-a-government Red and Black fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Apr 28, 2018 |
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Apr 28, 2018 04:48
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Calling it a revolution is over selling it a bit.
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Apr 28, 2018 05:03
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Truly Korean peoples everywhere yearn in their hearts for Juche
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Apr 28, 2018 05:04
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Charlz Guybon posted:Calling it a revolution is over selling it a bit. That's what the activists call it, and I think they're right to. But feel free to be an annoying pedant
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Apr 28, 2018 05:09
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Chomskyan posted:That's what the activists call it, and I think they're right to. But feel free to be an annoying pedant I've lived in the ROK for eight and a half years, so I know what I'm talking about. You were completely capable of going around, living your normal life at the time if you wanted. A revolution should be highly disruptive in order to earn the title.
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Apr 28, 2018 05:13
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Charlz Guybon posted:I've lived in the ROK for eight and a half years, so I know what I'm talking about. You were completely capable of going around, living your normal life at the time if you wanted. A revolution should be highly disruptive in order to earn the title. As opposed to NED sponsored color revolutions which are very real revolutions
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Apr 28, 2018 05:26
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1/3 of the country mobilized and forced a corrupt leader out of office, sweeping in a left-wing president who preceded to make peace with North Korea. But that's not a revolution guys because I'm a mediocre American dude who's lived in South Korea and I know what I'm talking about. Red and Black fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Apr 28, 2018 |
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Apr 28, 2018 05:35
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That was the lady who was taking orders from a cult leader, right?
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Apr 28, 2018 06:32
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I really don't see USA forces withdrawing from the Korean peninsula anytime soon. For starters, to do that would mean that the South Koreans would want them to. Which also means that this latest peace party amounts to something significant in the end (an improbable proposition, given the actual history in the region). Secondly, one of the main reasons for US keeping a presence there is to contain China. The US is not paying up to $100Bn per year to keep ~750 military installations in foreign countries around for shits and giggles close to 30 years after the dissolution of the USSR. They are doing it to keep their place as a global reaching superpower that makes sure other powers (regional or emerging) will always have to deal with the US from a position of weakness. Morality doesn't have much to do with this really, it is simply the MO that superpowers utilize to...remain a superpower.
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Apr 28, 2018 06:43
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Ghost Leviathan posted:That was the lady who was taking orders from a cult leader, right? Yes, she was impeached by the parliament for her actual crimes and the courts ruled unanimously that the impeachment and removal from office was the correct response to her crimes. Once that was done she under went a normal trial and was duly convicted. It's about as far from a revolution as you can get, and involved no major shakeup in the system.
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Apr 28, 2018 06:51
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SoggyBobcat posted:China and Russia (and the Soviet Union before it) are just as much imperialist powers as the United States hth That's just not true. It's obvious why that is the case for China. In the case of the Soviet Union, if you're talking about the Warsaw Pact countries, yeah, but keep in mind that the Russians were deathly afraid of Germany (this time with US help and US arms) coming back for a third go-around. Theirs was a much more defensive orientation, and they explicitly helped anti-imperial forces, for the most part. The United States intervened in numerous foreign elections, established global capitalism as we know it today, set up hundreds of military bases where they previously did not exist, invaded, undermined and toppled governments in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, Oceania, and SEA. The Soviet Union was bad in a lot of ways of but saying it was just as imperialist as the United States is not even revisionist, it's just idiotic.
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Apr 28, 2018 07:16
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i think we can all agree that fishmech sucks and has sucked for over a decade but, like, the whole peace thing and DMZ meeting is an unvarnished good thing, right? or am i just dumber than dogshit and don’t see the four dimensional chess going on? i doubt NK is gonna totally give up its arsenal absent pie in the sky odds of reunification or the US military leaving the peninsula, but i didn’t see this DMZ meeting coming, either. i’m going to panmunjom next month and it’s gonna be pretty rad to see a place my man Kim was just a few days earlier. wonder if there will be any relaxing of operation tension or whatever at the DMZ TenementFunster fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Apr 28, 2018 |
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Apr 28, 2018 08:38
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Ghost Leviathan posted:That was the lady who was taking orders from a cult leader, right? Yeah. She's in prison for 20 years if I recall. Her cultist buddy and her buddy's daughter are in prison as well iirc. I also accidentally ended up at one of the pro PGH protests during all of that when I was trying to find a Monet art exhibit.
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Apr 28, 2018 10:06
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I can only imagine what would have happened if she hadn't been caught out and was still President now.
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Apr 28, 2018 10:17
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TenementFunster posted:but, like, the whole peace thing and DMZ meeting is an unvarnished good thing, right? or am i just dumber than dogshit and don’t see the four dimensional chess going on? i doubt NK is gonna totally give up its arsenal absent pie in the sky odds of reunification or the US military leaving the peninsula, but i didn’t see this DMZ meeting coming, either. The meeting should be a net positive, but the circumstances behind the meeting aren't. I can't really back this, but it feels like the United States had an opportunity to play a leading role as the world returned to a multi-polar state. Instead, the United States is being left to the sidelines. I believe that will be a net negative, especially if American leaders fail to recognize the loss of power and try to exert influence they no longer have. At best that will be humiliating, at worst it will be deadly.
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