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Counterspelling in AD&D was done by a fighter specialized in darts.
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Apr 30, 2018 16:20
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gradenko, did the pre-2e versions have interruption of casting via physical attacks? That was pretty much the way to deal with neutralizing casters, not doing a reaction counterspell
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Apr 30, 2018 16:20
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In one of the Conan books, he throws a chair at a dumb wizard, and it breaks his magic focus ring, and the magic reverberates back into him. So, I want a system that supports that.
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Apr 30, 2018 16:26
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mastershakeman posted:gradenko, did the pre-2e versions have interruption of casting via physical attacks? That was pretty much the way to deal with neutralizing casters, not doing a reaction counterspell AD&D 1e: yes quote:if the spell caster is struck, grabbed, or magically attacked (and fails to make the requisite saving throw — explained later), the spell will be spoiled and fail. BECMI / Rules Cyclopedia: no - initiative is handled differently: Morale -> Movement -> Missile Combat -> Magic -> Melee, all for entire side (players v monsters), then for an entire other side, so there's no chance to "interrupt". OD&D: no insofar as there's never really a formal definition of initiative/combat order/spellcasting mechanics in the books. Supplement 3, Eldrich Wizardry, did implement an initiative system, but has no opinion on spells being interrupted by being hit. Chainmail: yes quote:In order to cast and maintain any spell, a Wizard must be both stationary and undisturbed by attack upon his person This is especially relevant if you derive your OD&D combat system from Chainmail.
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Apr 30, 2018 16:47
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Thinking about a house rule to help create more player empowering moments: Once per long rest, when making an ability check using a skill with which you are proficient, you may exert yourself. If you do, treat the ability check as if you had rolled a 15.
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Apr 30, 2018 17:09
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nice, thanks how the heck do you sort through all those systems so fast
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Apr 30, 2018 17:09
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Trent Squawkbox posted:My PCs have reached lvl 7 and we've already had our first Fireball, Counterspell, Counterspell your Counterspell. One solution I found (which, admittedly, I haven't had a chance to test at the table since no one at my table has counterspell) is to require the character casting counterspell to describe the manner in which they counter the spell within a short time frame, like 10 seconds or so. You explain what the spell does, and they have to come up with a believable effect that would undermine and counteract that effect. So for Fireball, which fires what is essentially a tiny firework that erupts into a fiery explosion, might be countered by the appearance of a hovering globe of water, which contains the blast and evaporates into a harmless cloud of steam. Or they summon a spectral head, which literally eats the spell and expands comically when it goes off, vanishing shortly thereafter. Encourage players to get creative with it. That said, definitely talk to your players about implementing this sort of change before doing so, since not everyone is interested in that level of improvisation in their game. And be willing to let someone swap out Counterspell immediately if they're okay with that being how the spell works but are no longer interested in using it.
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Apr 30, 2018 18:42
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gradenko_2000 posted:BECMI / Rules Cyclopedia: no - initiative is handled differently: Morale -> Movement -> Missile Combat -> Magic -> Melee, all for entire side (players v monsters), then for an entire other side, so there's no chance to "interrupt".
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Apr 30, 2018 19:06
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CeallaSo posted:One solution I found (which, admittedly, I haven't had a chance to test at the table since no one at my table has counterspell) is to require the character casting counterspell to describe the manner in which they counter the spell within a short time frame, like 10 seconds or so. You explain what the spell does, and they have to come up with a believable effect that would undermine and counteract that effect. So for Fireball, which fires what is essentially a tiny firework that erupts into a fiery explosion, might be countered by the appearance of a hovering globe of water, which contains the blast and evaporates into a harmless cloud of steam. Or they summon a spectral head, which literally eats the spell and expands comically when it goes off, vanishing shortly thereafter. Encourage players to get creative with it. I also like putting my players on the spot to allow them to use their character abilities. Ask me about requiring people to convince me of something before they're allowed to roll on any sort of social check.
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Apr 30, 2018 19:08
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the onion wizard posted:Is it just me, or is Reach generally kind of pointless? In fact it works in some detrimental ways with, eg, a Rogue's sneak attack. Besides PAM, which greatly benefits from the area of effect to trigger it's reaction attack, reach gives you greater freedom to reposition in a melee to attack different enemies (that say your allies are engaging) without provoking opportunity attacks from baddies already within 5ft of you. It also counters deleterious "if the enemy is struck in melee" effects like Balors' fire aura.
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Apr 30, 2018 19:11
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CeallaSo posted:One solution I found (which, admittedly, I haven't had a chance to test at the table since no one at my table has counterspell) is to require the character casting counterspell to describe the manner in which they counter the spell within a short time frame, like 10 seconds or so. You explain what the spell does, and they have to come up with a believable effect that would undermine and counteract that effect. So for Fireball, which fires what is essentially a tiny firework that erupts into a fiery explosion, might be countered by the appearance of a hovering globe of water, which contains the blast and evaporates into a harmless cloud of steam. Or they summon a spectral head, which literally eats the spell and expands comically when it goes off, vanishing shortly thereafter. Encourage players to get creative with it. Narrative support is always fun. This was my Bard casting Counterspell, so it would be fun to see how a bard outsings? a fireball. I also goofed and let them cast counterspell after failing their saving throws. I let it slide, but, that probably should have been too late for a reaction. e: Yeah, after checking my PC's character sheet, it's obvious she made the build specifically to get counterspell and some other wizard spells. I'm not going to rob her of that planning. Trent Squawkbox fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 19:14
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Trent Squawkbox posted:Narrative support is always fun. This was my Bard casting Counterspell, so it would be fun to see how a bard outsings? a fireball. A cascade of rippling sonic energy deflects the bead of fire, sending it rocketing into the air before detonating harmlessly 50 feet above the ground.
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Apr 30, 2018 19:26
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DeathSandwich posted:A cascade of rippling sonic energy deflects the bead of fire, sending it rocketing into the air before detonating harmlessly 50 feet above the ground. Bardic Counterspell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5lanjFi6qo&t=32s
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Apr 30, 2018 19:31
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Hey guys, one of my players has a warlock and wants an Archfey patron. I don't want to do the immortal soul route. What might an Archfey want? I imagine it wants a macguffin or maybe like something nonsensical it can't ever get. Give me some weird "bring me 3 breaths of a dragon" or something. What's some cool things an Archfey might impose on it's warlock? Whimsical stupid things like "always draw on statues of horses, throw copper coins into wishing wells, and carry a thimble in your pocket" or something weird. I'm brainstorming for whacky ideas that won't turn this player off. She's kind of a sensitive person, and bringing her patron a baby to eat or something wouldn't work. Any ideas? I'm having a hard time even finding how archfey behave. E: What would Titania want from a warlock besides their soul? Firstborn fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 19:31
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Firstborn posted:Any ideas? I'm having a hard time even finding how archfey behave.
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Apr 30, 2018 19:45
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Firstborn posted:Hey guys, one of my players has a warlock and wants an Archfey patron. I don't want to do the immortal soul route. What might an Archfey want? I imagine it wants a macguffin or maybe like something nonsensical it can't ever get. Give me some weird "bring me 3 breaths of a dragon" or something. What's some cool things an Archfey might impose on it's warlock? Whimsical stupid things like "always draw on statues of horses, throw copper coins into wishing wells, and carry a thimble in your pocket" or something weird. I'm brainstorming for whacky ideas that won't turn this player off. She's kind of a sensitive person, and bringing her patron a baby to eat or something wouldn't work. Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell had a good fey villan. IIRC, he would transport people during their dreams to the fairy kingdom where he would force them to dance all night long. So Titania could require her warlock to send them a dancer/victim each night, or the warlock would be forced to take their place - nullifying a long rest.
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Apr 30, 2018 19:50
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Firstborn posted:Hey guys, one of my players has a warlock and wants an Archfey patron. I don't want to do the immortal soul route. What might an Archfey want? I imagine it wants a macguffin or maybe like something nonsensical it can't ever get. Give me some weird "bring me 3 breaths of a dragon" or something. What's some cool things an Archfey might impose on it's warlock? Whimsical stupid things like "always draw on statues of horses, throw copper coins into wishing wells, and carry a thimble in your pocket" or something weird. I'm brainstorming for whacky ideas that won't turn this player off. She's kind of a sensitive person, and bringing her patron a baby to eat or something wouldn't work. One of my players is a bard who took a level in warlock and picked the fey. The pact was simply "Do new and entertaining stupid poo poo all the time or else I'll revoke your powers". This pact turned almost every encounter from "synaptic static->t-rex polymorph" to new and funny ways of dealing with stuff. Instead of fighting 20 skeletons, he convinced them that they were being exploited by the necromanticly bourgeois and turned the necromancers army against him.
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Apr 30, 2018 20:12
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Can confirm that in our game with a Mab warlock (me) and Titania cleric it basically turned into the Blood War's much more chill cousin the Prank War carried out in the names of our respective deities/patrons and it was pretty great for everyone.
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Apr 30, 2018 20:14
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Thanks for the ideas, guys. That's a lot of cool stuff to work with. Definitely using the iron.Trent Squawkbox posted:Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell had a good fey villan. IIRC, he would transport people during their dreams to the fairy kingdom where he would force them to dance all night long. This is a great idea. I'm going to adapt this. Genius, man.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:24
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If it's Titania, perhaps she wants the character to bring her things that might give her a leg up over her husband? Information, seemingly-insignificant items which serve some greater purpose, individuals of a certain nature, that sort of thing. She might even ask the characters to steal something from Oberon at some point, which could lead into a fun adventure. E: Glagha posted:I also like putting my players on the spot to allow them to use their character abilities. Ask me about requiring people to convince me of something before they're allowed to roll on any sort of social check. CeallaSo fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 22:34
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On counterspell. Something that should be noted. Is that by default unless you or an ally make an arcana check, you don't actually know what your enemy is casting or at what level.
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May 1, 2018 00:00
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gradenko_2000 posted:AD&D 1e: yes Angrymog posted:There is, because you roll initiative per round, and after declaring your action. Same with 2e I went to check on this, and found this in the spellcasting chapter:  So I'm guessing it is very dangerous to cast magic in combat because you could declare you're casting a spell, have your side go second in the initiative, and then get hit by someone.
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May 1, 2018 00:28
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MonsterEnvy posted:On counterspell. Something that should be noted. Is that by default unless you or an ally make an arcana check, you don't actually know what your enemy is casting or at what level. End result? RAW, you can't identify a spell and counterspell it (bonus link). An ally before you in the turn order could identify the spell and yell it out, but someone who isn't trained in arcana is going to be terrible at it, and even someone trained in arcana may struggle. Elysiume fucked around with this message at 00:38 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 00:30
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Nickoten posted:I went to check on this, and found this in the spellcasting chapter: Yep. Which is another way that 3e+ inadvertently powered up casters because there's usually no delay between declaration and effect.
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May 1, 2018 00:54
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Angrymog posted:There is, because you roll initiative per round, and after declaring your action. Same with 2e Nickoten posted:I went to check on this, and found this in the spellcasting chapter: I stand corrected 
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May 1, 2018 00:58
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Elysiume posted:I actually couldn't find rules for a 5e equivalent to spellcraft checks, and apparently they tucked it away in XGTE, and made it amusingly punishing. The DC is 15 + spell level, and you use intelligence (arcana). You get advantage if the caster is casting it off of your list. A wizard has advantage to identify a wizard casting Plane Shift, but does not have advantage to identify a warlock casting Plane Shift, because the warlock is casting the warlock version of the spell. Identifying a spell takes a reaction if you attempt to identify it in response to it being cast, or an action while the effect is active to attempt to identify it. I am actully ok with this. As Counterspell is very powerful and unless you allies help, having to blind fire it I feel is a good way to make it less overpowered.
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May 1, 2018 01:06
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Elysiume posted:I actually couldn't find rules for a 5e equivalent to spellcraft checks, and apparently they tucked it away in XGTE, and made it amusingly punishing. The DC is 15 + spell level, and you use intelligence (arcana). You get advantage if the caster is casting it off of your list. A wizard has advantage to identify a wizard casting Plane Shift, but does not have advantage to identify a warlock casting Plane Shift, because the warlock is casting the warlock version of the spell. Identifying a spell takes a reaction if you attempt to identify it in response to it being cast, or an action while the effect is active to attempt to identify it. Does a PC need to identify a spell each time it's cast? Like if a NPC casts a spell, PC identifies it as Fire Ball. Next turn, attempts to cast fire ball again, does the PC need to re-identify it or do they automatically know? I would assume they recognize the same hand movements/components/words. I would also assume if a spell being cast is a spell that a PC currently has prepared, that PC immediately recognizes it.
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May 1, 2018 01:11
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It's less that you *have* to identify it and more that you'd really want to because throwing counterspell willy-nilly at whatever is way less impactful than waiting to hear "the lich casts Disintegrate" or whatever
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May 1, 2018 01:21
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MonsterEnvy posted:I am actully ok with this. As Counterspell is very powerful and unless you allies help, having to blind fire it I feel is a good way to make it less overpowered. Trent Squawkbox posted:Does a PC need to identify a spell each time it's cast? Like if a NPC casts a spell, PC identifies it as Fire Ball. Next turn, attempts to cast fire ball again, does the PC need to re-identify it or do they automatically know? I would assume they recognize the same hand movements/components/words.
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May 1, 2018 01:26
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MonsterEnvy posted:I am actully ok with this. As Counterspell is very powerful and unless you allies help, having to blind fire it I feel is a good way to make it less overpowered. My takeaway from this is to be more vague initially about what spell is being cast, then once the fireball has formed in the air, it's too late for a reaction/counterspell.
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May 1, 2018 01:34
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I guess the implication here is that you couldn't tell Evard's Black Tentacles from Meteor Swarm from Animate Dead without watching the whole thing really closely? Like, any given piece of wizard magic is similar enough to all other wizard magic that even a trained wizard can either figure out what's being cast or a prepare a counter, but not both? That's kinda cool as an in-fiction thing. Next time we start a game I'm gonna talk to my group about it and get them to decide if it's tiny subtle differences throughout the whole cast, or if the first 90-99% of all single-round spells is the exact same process and then you tack modifiers on the end. Either way implies things about what magic is, which could be part of an interesting theme for a short game. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:26 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 01:56
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This also makes counterspelling a counterspell very strange and almost accidental. Like it's: PC: I begin to cast a fireball. NPC: *moves his hands in reaction and begins to cast another spell.* PC: I cast counterspell to whatever he's doing. Only after the dust is settled is it revealed the NPC was casting a counterspell.
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May 1, 2018 02:06
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i too desire to be a cocksucker
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May 1, 2018 02:08
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Though I feel the need to be fair. If the PC's can't figure it out at a glance. I think NPC's should not be able to ether. Though I am unsure of the best way to implement it.
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May 1, 2018 02:31
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MonsterEnvy posted:Though I feel the need to be fair. If the PC's can't figure it out at a glance. I think NPC's should not be able to ether. Elysiume fucked around with this message at 02:43 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 02:36
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Elysiume posted:In my PF game I had my DM roll a spellcraft check to see if an NPC could tell what spell I was casting. I'd already said it out loud, but traditional RPGs are already a morass of separating IC and OoC knowledge. It gets a lot harder once counterspells are in the mix. There's no way to both allow for a genuine decision over blind counterspelling and keep people honest short of having them write down the spell they're casting before anyone gets the chance to counter it. "I cast a spell" (intending to cast Fireball) > "Tate casts Counterspell" > "I was casting Magic Missile" is a tempting situation for an unscrupulous player. Ideally you only play with people you trust not to cheat, but things don't always work out. Yeah the second case was the one I was thinking of.
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May 1, 2018 02:46
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I'm in the process of buying the core rulebooks for 5th edition and I've got a question: If I want to use D&D Beyond, do I need to buy their books online or will the physical books that are already in transit to me have codes to activate it on Beyond?
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May 1, 2018 03:23
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DeathSandwich posted:I'm in the process of buying the core rulebooks for 5th edition and I've got a question: If I want to use D&D Beyond, do I need to buy their books online or will the physical books that are already in transit to me have codes to activate it on Beyond? Beyond is completely separate and you would have to buy the books again. Probably the worst part about the whole thing.
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May 1, 2018 03:25
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mango sentinel posted:Beyond is completely separate and you would have to buy the books again. Probably the worst part about the whole thing. loving boo.
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May 1, 2018 03:26
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DeathSandwich posted:loving boo. Yeah it's for sure the biggest flaw about Beyond. Beyond works well, and the digital books are cheaper then the physical version, but the two systems are not linked yet sadly. I would love it if there was some code in the books that let you activate it on Beyond.
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May 1, 2018 03:37
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