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self unaware posted:It's like clockwork, ask a liberal to defend voting for Hillary and they go into "game theory" and "there are only two options". As if the Democratic party isn't capable of figuring out what my vote for La Riva meant. It means you've checked out and they don't have to pursue your vote. They care about getting Dems out to vote, not winning La Rivans. FYI I'm a socialist, I'm just not an idiot about political analysis.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:13
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botany posted:and you are supporting the GOP by not voting for dems in the general, because that's what that means in a two party system There are 235 million eligible voters in America give or take, and 65 million of them voted for Hillary in the last election, so what you're saying is 170 million Americans support the GOP or 72% of the population is pro-GOP. Pack it in everyone, the Dems are done forever.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:13
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Jaxyon posted:It means you've checked out and they don't have to pursue your vote. *loses every level of government* Wow not pursuing votes is working great!
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Apr 30, 2018 22:14
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Jaxyon posted:It means you've checked out and they don't have to pursue your vote. if they cared about getting dems out to vote they wouldn't try so hard to appeal to republicans. but even if what you were claiming is true, it's an idiotic strategy in a nation with a growing population of independent and disaffected voters. i guess your argument is that we should enable such stupid and self-destructive strategy by the dem party?
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Apr 30, 2018 22:15
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VitalSigns posted:*loses every level of government* *has voted for nobody elected to office in years* "Dems gonna get this message any day now!"
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Apr 30, 2018 22:17
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Jaxyon posted:*has voted for nobody elected to office in years* I mean if you get enough people to not do that, yeah?
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Apr 30, 2018 22:18
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Jaxyon posted:*has voted for nobody elected to office in years* actually you'll find that most of us have voted dem for a long time, and yet somehow dems never manage to get our message and keep sliding rightwards regardless somehow, your "vote for dems no matter what!" strategy seems to be failing...
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Apr 30, 2018 22:18
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Jaxyon posted:*has voted for nobody elected to office in years* So you're openly cheerleading for the Democrats to never learn from what happened to them 2009-2016? 
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Apr 30, 2018 22:18
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Condiv posted:cause you've ignored everything i said in response to that and haven't answered how being paid $20k a year and being upset that i'm not being paid a little more is fygm and anti-labor quote:no it's not. over half the nation didn't vote last election, and they were not supporting the GOP by taking that action. quote:the only reason you even make that leap of logic is because you are aligned with the dems, and think every vote should belong to them. VitalSigns posted:There are 235 million eligible voters in America give or take, and 65 million of them voted for Hillary in the last election, so what you're saying is 170 million Americans support the GOP or 72% of the population is pro-GOP. both of you are still thinking in terms of beliefs rather than outcomes. no, condiv and non-voters are probably not consciously in favor of the GOP. that doesn't mean their actions don't benefit republicans. self unaware posted:"but that's how a two party system works" screams the german man from across the atlantic ocean the fact that i understand your political system better than you should give you pause but i'm reasonably sure you couldn't pour water out of a shoe with the instruction printed on the sole so
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Apr 30, 2018 22:19
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Condiv posted:if they cared about getting dems out to vote they wouldn't try so hard to appeal to republicans. but even if what you were claiming is true, it's an idiotic strategy in a nation with a growing population of independent and disaffected voters. i guess your argument is that we should enable such stupid and self-destructive strategy by the dem party? Democrats have been winning special elections by getting Dems out to vote. They're not trying to appeal to Republicans, they're trying to appeal to idiot moderates, who actually do exist.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:19
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VitalSigns posted:So you're openly cheerleading for the Democrats to never learn from what happened to them 2009-2016? No, where did I do that?
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Apr 30, 2018 22:19
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Condiv posted:actually you'll find that most of us have voted dem for a long time, and yet somehow dems never manage to get our message and keep sliding rightwards regardless yep the dems, who are now supporting gay marriage, trans rights, a min wage increase and some form of public health care, are sure drifting to the right
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Apr 30, 2018 22:20
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If a party appeals to idiot moderates by doing idiot moderate things then why do socialists want to vote for it?
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Apr 30, 2018 22:20
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botany posted:both of you are still thinking in terms of beliefs rather than outcomes. no, condiv and non-voters are probably not consciously in favor of the GOP. that doesn't mean their actions don't benefit republicans. Then the biggest benefactors of Republicans are the Democratic party bosses, as they're fine with alienating voters as long as the gravy train keeps a-comin
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Apr 30, 2018 22:20
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Condiv posted:actually you'll find that most of us have voted dem for a long time, and yet somehow dems never manage to get our message and keep sliding rightwards regardless Who said that was my strategy? Is everyone in the thread incapable of not dealing in strawmen?
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Apr 30, 2018 22:20
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OwlFancier posted:If a party appeals to idiot moderates by doing idiot moderate things then why do socialists want to vote for it? because, and this is going to blow your mind, you live in a lovely, disgusting, loving deplorable two party system
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Apr 30, 2018 22:21
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Most people with a functioning brain would, indeed, wonder what's happening when they notice they're losing people who formerly voted for them and maybe consider how to reverse that. Unfortunately, for Democrats, shedding their voters is entirely intentional as part of the effort to replace the icky working class with wealthy moderate republicans.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:21
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OwlFancier posted:If a party appeals to idiot moderates by doing idiot moderate things then why do socialists want to vote for it? Most socialists I know do not want to. They just understand how politics works. Well, some do.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:21
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Jaxyon posted:No, where did I do that? When you gloated over the Democrats not learning anything from 4 million voters dropping out between 2008 and 2016? Jaxyon posted:*has voted for nobody elected to office in years* botany posted:yep the dems, who are now supporting gay marriage, trans rights, a min wage increase and some form of public health care, are sure drifting to the right Didn't the dems just support an anti-marriage anti-gay anti-Obamacare anti-choice, anti-min-wage candidate by the name of Dan Lipinski in a safe blue seat against a left-wing challenger who lost by 1%? Like objectively the party tipped the scale against LGBT people, minorities, women, and the poor by helping someone who hates them all squeak out a primary win? And isn't the shift to public health care only a recent thing after "better ideas will never ever happen" crashed and burned in 2016?
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Apr 30, 2018 22:23
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Jaxyon posted:Most socialists I know do not want to. They just understand how politics works. Well, some do. Then why do they? Like, why do you vote for a party that acts wholly contrary to your political goals? How is that anything but ceding your political goals and becoming, functionally, an idiot moderate? If you keep voting for them they're going to win, and going to do the things you don't want to do, and you have achieved nothing.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:23
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Oh Snapple! posted:Most people with a functioning brain would, indeed, wonder what's happening when they notice they're losing people who formerly voted for them and maybe consider how to reverse that. yeah i'm sure the fact that dems are now openly talking about UBI and single payer, and the fact that LGBTQ rights are now so entrenched that joy reids dumbass homophobia is a major scandal again is not indicative of dems considering how to reverse that trend i'm sure the fact that trans women have been elected into high office is not indicative of dems trying to reverse that trend i'm sure the fact that dem candidates like cynthia nixon are making their rejection of corporate donations and a call for election reform part of their platform is not part of that either
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Apr 30, 2018 22:25
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botany posted:do you think you can't be insincere if your income is below a certain point? how is your actual income level relevant to the credence i give to your convictions? how do i got mine if my income level is so low? and really i'm laughing my rear end off that you think i don't care about labor concerns when they effect me and have been effecting me my whole life. keep trying to paint me as a regressive and a republican botany, i'm sure you'll manage to convince me to vote for oligarchs eventually with that approach quote:yes they were they don't benefit republicans period. if there were 0 votes cast in all elections republicans wouldn't win by default. your claim that a non-vote is republican support doesn't pass any kind of logical muster Jaxyon posted:Who said that was my strategy? it's what you've been advocating for, so...
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Apr 30, 2018 22:26
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botany posted:yeah i'm sure the fact that dems are now openly talking about UBI and single payer 🎵only because they lost🎵 (and even then, it's only a few politicians who are trying to position themselves for a 2020 presidential run, the party establishment is still rigging primaries against candidates who support those things)
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Apr 30, 2018 22:26
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VitalSigns posted:🎵only because they lost🎵 🎵who gives a gently caress why as long as they do it🎵
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Apr 30, 2018 22:27
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VitalSigns posted:When you gloated over the Democrats not learning anything from 4 million voters dropping out between 2008 and 2016? Except, that's not what that is. That's me pointing out that the voting 3rd party thing doesn't seem to be working either. OwlFancier posted:Then why do they? Because I live in reality and people get hurt by politics in reality. The problem is a FPTP 2 party system. I can't ignore that because I don't want it to be like that. I can't tell my friends in vulnerable groups to take one for the team because I am taking an ideological stand. My job is to vote for the least work option in close elections, because one of those 2 is going to win, because that's how politics works right now in the US. I don't like it, but that doesn't change that. I also work towards electoral reform and primarying from the left, because that's how you change the fundamentally broken system. I don't have the privilege of saying "well not a socialist, gonna go 3rd party and let Trump win because my societal position is such that I won't be much affected by either him or Hillary"
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Apr 30, 2018 22:28
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botany posted:yeah i'm sure the fact that dems are now openly talking about UBI and single payer, and the fact that LGBTQ rights are now so entrenched that joy reids dumbass homophobia is a major scandal again is not indicative of dems considering how to reverse that trend As VitalSigns effectively said, it would have been extremely nice if they had begun doing this work before they lost on literally every level of government possible.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:28
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botany posted:🎵who gives a gently caress why as long as they do it🎵 the people who wish to see more of that behavior next question
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Apr 30, 2018 22:28
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Like either you vote for democrats and get poo poo or you vote for republicans and get more poo poo. Why vote for poo poo? Why accept voting for poo poo?
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Apr 30, 2018 22:28
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🎵health care isn't going to not save people's lives because it was only implemented as a reaction to losing🎵 🎵you should all probably look up why the first health insurance sytstems in the history of mankind came into being🎵 🎵it was not out of human goodness but to stave off revolution🎵
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Apr 30, 2018 22:29
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botany posted:🎵who gives a gently caress why as long as they do it🎵 getting them to do these things is kinda central to the discussion, that's why people care
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Apr 30, 2018 22:29
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botany posted:🎵who gives a gently caress why as long as they do it🎵 Because the discussion is over strategic voting, and it's an indicator that the people who didn't vote in 2016 were more effective in moving the party to the left than they would have been had they elected Hillary on a platform of "no better ideas" E: I voted for Hillary
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Apr 30, 2018 22:29
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OwlFancier posted:Like either you vote for democrats and get poo poo or you vote for republicans and get more poo poo. Why vote for poo poo? Why accept voting for poo poo? Unless you're getting your poo poo together for the revolution, not sure where you're going with this.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:29
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Condiv posted:how do i got mine if my income level is so low? and really i'm laughing my rear end off that you think i don't care about labor concerns when they effect me and have been effecting me my whole life. keep trying to paint me as a regressive and a republican botany, i'm sure you'll manage to convince me to vote for oligarchs eventually with that approach i don't give two shits about convincing you, i see you as a lost cause tbh
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Apr 30, 2018 22:30
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Jaxyon posted:Unless you're getting your poo poo together for the revolution, not sure where you're going with this. well, my plan was instead to vote for dems that are good, and not vote for dems that are bad, so as to hopefully purge the party of the bad dems. i call it strategic voting
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Apr 30, 2018 22:31
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Jaxyon posted:Because I live in reality and people get hurt by politics in reality. The problem is a FPTP 2 party system. I can't ignore that because I don't want it to be like that. You can't change it if you keep offering uncondtional support to whoever has the blue rosette on. Because why are you going to get electoral reform if you achieve your end state of just electing any democrat that's on the ballot? Why are you going to get left candidates if literally anyone can show up and get the votes because people have to give them? Like, why are you a socialist if you think that oligarchs will just hand over power because you ask nicely while supporting everything they do? You don't get better wages by asking the boss for some but refusing to withdraw your labour. If dems want votes you have to make them work for them, because votes are the only thing they give a poo poo about, votes are their money, votes are their power, votes are what they need from you, you don't give them over freely and expect anything back in return do you? Why on earth do you treat democrats like some sort of ally or equal? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 22:31
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I kinda sympathize with botany, living in a country where voting for liberals is literally a vote for conservatives would drive anyone insane.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:32
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Jaxyon posted:By doing nothing, I am the bestest ally By supporting the people who gently caress people to death, I'm an even better one
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Apr 30, 2018 22:32
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botany posted:i don't give two shits about convincing you, i see you as a lost cause tbh then why are you getting angry at me for not voting for oligarchs. and trying to claim i'm fygm? and trying to cast me as a republican. and so on and so on? you seem p upset and lashing out that i'm not voting for the dem ticket in lockstep anymore btw, you never really explained how i'm fygm
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Apr 30, 2018 22:33
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VitalSigns posted:I kinda sympathize with botany, living in a country where voting for liberals is literally a vote for conservatives would drive anyone insane. the dumb thing is in my country voting "third party" actually makes sense, since we have a functioning political system  that's the reason i'm a member of the socialist party and politically active. because even if we're not in power, a parliamentary system means that votes for actual leftist policies have a real effect.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:34
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Also as always it's important for me to point out that I live in a uniquely lovely situation for voting being in Syracuse If I vote in anything bigger than city elections, it doesnt matter, because upstate is massively red outside of a couple blue holdouts like Syracuse or a couple of the other college cities And at the national level, the city drags the whole state blue so upstate as a whole doesn't count Upstate New York is hosed
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Apr 30, 2018 22:34
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