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Shadow225 posted:The other part of the discussion with regards to Hearthstone is that you don't have to wait until you or a friend crack a certain subset of cards in order to brew a deck; you just dust it up. The cost of Magic prohibits this in varying degrees depending on your format, typical play group, and literal, physical location. Like sure, you may want to try to crank out a go wide tokens deck with Song of Freyalise and History of Benalaia, but good luck finding A) 4 of each; B) the ability to play with them either by buying them, trading for them, or borrowing them; C) the time to actually play the deck in an environment where you feel comfortable; and D) the ability to get rid of them if you don't like the deck. Yes, this is definitely relevant. Personally, I will use various programs or just scribble on lands with a sharpie to test before committing. But it becomes pretty clear pretty quickly that "poo poo, Lyra is pretty gross, I know I'll be playing her" and order some copies. I'm not saying it's 100% wrong to wait, especially if you have very limited resources (though your wanting to play competitive mtg without a budget is another discussion entirely). I'm saying I hate that this culture of ONLY EVER NETDECKING directly leads to the game basically stalling for a month after a new set fires and I want to play more wizard poker 
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May 1, 2018 18:19
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BaronVonVaderham posted:I'm arguing you don't need "data" to play with a new set, you're allowed to try something that might not work first try. Some people don't have the resources (dollars, hours) to iterate different lists for a deck to squeak out a few percentage points and they'd rather leave the heavy lifting to the professionals (or if they're impatient, the scg circuit).
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May 1, 2018 18:19
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moush posted:There are very few MTG streamers who can live off that revenue, Caleb and SaffronOlive are probably some of the only ones. I think the pros just really like the competitive aspect but it's funny to see someone like Matt Nass only get like 400 viewers when he streams MTGO. Elder Scrolls: Legends didn't think a pro scene was important... That game all but dried up and blew away
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May 1, 2018 18:19
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Sickening posted:LOL. People do this because investing 200+ dollars into a deck only for it to be bad is a very common case. i feel like a card rental system would help with this problem, in mtgo and arena at least
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May 1, 2018 18:20
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A Moose posted:Elder Scrolls: Legends didn't think a pro scene was important... That game all but dried up and blew away I would hazard a guess that's not why it died. Gwent just had a pretty big tournament recently and that game is going to die very soon.
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May 1, 2018 18:21
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The way to tell if a deck is viable is to spend like 10 seconds looking at it and figuring out whether SaffronOlive would go "C'MON DECKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK" while playing it. You can usually just look at it and say "hmmm yes I'm sure this self-mill/Yawgmoth's Vile Offering deck is great." mandatory lesbian posted:i feel like a card rental system would help with this problem, in mtgo and arena at least There actually is one, but it's this weird janky system where it's basically like one guy who runs a bot and you have to subscribe to his scheme for a fairly long time at pretty high prices before he'll even let you use it that way.
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May 1, 2018 18:22
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mandatory lesbian posted:i feel like a card rental system would help with this problem, in mtgo and arena at least Already exists on mtgo by 3rd parties.
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May 1, 2018 18:24
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Lone Goat posted:Some people don't have the resources (dollars, hours) to iterate different lists for a deck to squeak out a few percentage points and they'd rather leave the heavy lifting to the professionals (or if they're impatient, the scg circuit). This is fair. It's just, again, the hyper-Spikey-ness that everyone can ONLY play the absolute highest tier list that leads to stagnation. This definitely applies to a number of players, especially younger ones still in school in my area, but not the guys who literally only play the winning list from last weekend's event every single week who either have everything in the format in a binder, or are constantly churning through decks every other week and throwing insane money at the problem. EDIT: I should clarify I'm talking about FNM level events. Be as Spikey as you want at a GP, and I'll laugh and take free wins against the majority of the field who have no business competing at that level partially because they threw something together that they found online and don't know their own list. mandatory lesbian posted:i feel like a card rental system would help with this problem, in mtgo and arena at least At least it's gotten better. I know $200 is a lot to most people still (especially teenager), but we've come a long way since $700 standard decks in Khans block......which everyone inexplicably loves to reminisce about as a great standard, even though it probably did more to kill the format off than any of the ban-worthy problems since.
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May 1, 2018 18:24
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BaronVonVaderham posted:Did anything I say at any point say "you have to spend a pile of money on this"? Turns out there are budget options you can play while you wait. The fact that the only option in your mind is to play the absolute best deck possible is exactly my point. There's such an over-concentration of pure Spikes that it's impossible to play this game for a good month after a new set fires. The cost thing is 100% the reason most people don't brew when a set comes out. Even "budget" decks are going to be $50-$100 which is too much for many people to spend on a whim. And if you are picking up "obviously good" stuff, then you definitely can't afford to spend money on random jank on top of that. Based on your posts in the trade thread, I don't think you have a reasonable perspective on how people spend money on this game.
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May 1, 2018 18:26
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BaronVonVaderham posted:This is fair. It's just, again, the hyper-Spikey-ness that everyone can ONLY play the absolute highest tier list that leads to stagnation. This will always happen in an ecosystem that relies on tournaments with prizes.
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May 1, 2018 18:26
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ShadeofBlue posted:The cost thing is 100% the reason most people don't brew when a set comes out. You can do it on MTGO quite quickly with an initial investment (I do that a lot) but you have to be pretty quick on the gun with turnover because prices move so fast and you can take a bath if you put a lot of money into a card that turns out to be jank or have BS demand like Mox Amber.
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May 1, 2018 18:28
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BaronVonVaderham posted:This is fair. It's just, again, the hyper-Spikey-ness that everyone can ONLY play the absolute highest tier list that leads to stagnation. Ooh I wanna know about your best GP finish now.
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May 1, 2018 18:33
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ShadeofBlue posted:Based on your posts in the trade thread, I don't think you have a reasonable perspective on how people spend money on this game. I do my best to temper that, because yes, I'm light years away from someone working for minimum wage when I have a stack of graded power on my desk right now. But this is a fair criticism, maybe I'm farther off than I think in my expectations where I don't think $50 on a budget deck is a big deal. I'm willing to concede I'm wrong about that, but I think there is a whole other issue of people wanting to compete at this highest level but not spend any money on the game. But the solution should definitely be "how can we lower the barrier to entry", not "why don't you spend more money on this hobby", which I guess is the impression my arguments were giving and I was wrong. I'm basing this purely on anecdotal evidence of seeing the same players who complain about the cost of the game cracking a random $100 booster box to kill time before FNM. It's hard to see cost as the issue for a given player who regularly preorder a case. I guess the fairest statement I can make is "there are a lot of factors, of which cost is a big one". I don't think information flowing freely is the root problem, I would instead ask how we can continue to lower the barrier to entry. If we had free information, we just have the list of staples settled that much sooner and the prices end up right where they'll be here in a month anyway. You just don't wait a month to figure that out, which I guess solves my issue of wanting to play sooner but not the bigger problem of "how do we keep getting people to come back to Standard again like I did". black potus posted:Ooh I wanna know about your best GP finish now. Oh I absolutely suck at this game and don't kid myself with the main event. I stick to side events and trading, or I'll do an SCG event (or used to, back when Florida still got those ) or TCGPlayer 5k or something.
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May 1, 2018 18:36
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I mean I can already tell you the PT is going to involve lots of boring decks with Settle the Wreckage and Teferi because that's the kind of decks Pros like playing.
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May 1, 2018 18:36
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Sickening posted:Already exists on mtgo by 3rd parties. yeah sure but itd be cheaper if wotc did it well excuse me, it would theorectically be cheaper if WOTC did it
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May 1, 2018 18:38
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fadam posted:What do you guys do when a brand new-ish player shows up to Modern night with a crappy deck?
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May 1, 2018 18:40
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Yawgmoth posted:If they're friendly and interested in getting better, I'll usually ask if I can go through their deck while asking them what their wincon is and how they plan to get there. Then I'll tell them "okay you're never going to get to play this because [reason]", "this is just a worse version of [card]", "this is good but you need to support with [stuff]", etc. I've had enough bad experiences with people getting pissy with me for even offering that I don't generally put myself out there anymore, though. As has been said, lots of people would rather blame external factors than improve and some get really incensed by the idea that there's anything they could do. There are a lot of people who want to externalize failure and luckily WotC hands them a million ways to do so, but unluckily it means there's little incentive to move off of that externalization, but luckily that means they'll keep giving WotC money so every six years they can accidentally make a good draft set.
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May 1, 2018 18:44
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Dominaria's good, is my point.
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May 1, 2018 18:44
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black potus posted:Dominaria's good, is my point. Yes it is, I'm loving it so far.
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May 1, 2018 18:46
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Angry Grimace posted:I mean I can already tell you the PT is going to involve lots of boring decks with Settle the Wreckage and Teferi because that's the kind of decks Pros like playing. Idk Ive spent most of my time in magic playing aggro decks, and ive never had more fun than the uw control deck im playing now.
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May 1, 2018 18:46
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Angry Grimace posted:I mean I can already tell you the PT is going to involve lots of boring decks with Settle the Wreckage and Teferi because that's the kind of decks Pros like playing. Excuse me, boring? U/x/x control is Purest Magic
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May 1, 2018 18:49
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AnEdgelord posted:Idk Ive spent most of my time in magic playing aggro decks, and ive never had more fun than the uw control deck im playing now. Your opponent isn't having any fun
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May 1, 2018 18:49
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Angry Grimace posted:Your opponent isn't having any fun They werent when i was killing them on turn 3-4 with aggro decks either so im not sure there is much difference
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May 1, 2018 18:50
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sit on my Facebook posted:Excuse me, boring? U/x/x control is Purest Magic I used to loathe control mirrors, but I kind of dig it now. Some games one player just draws every counter and the other doesn't, but most of the time I feel like I really have to play my hardest and every single decision matters.
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May 1, 2018 18:51
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Angry Grimace posted:You can usually just look at it and say "hmmm yes I'm sure this self-mill/Yawgmoth's Vile Offering deck is great." Well, I am. 
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May 1, 2018 18:52
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Angry Grimace posted:Your opponent isn't having any fun Good.
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May 1, 2018 18:53
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Angry Grimace posted:Your opponent isn't having any fun This is either patently not true or they should’ve quit 6 turns ago
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May 1, 2018 18:59
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Angry Grimace posted:Your opponent isn't having any fun fun in magic is zero sum, and I want all of it
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May 1, 2018 19:20
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Playing Mono-red on MTGO and so far it feels like it folds HARD against Mono-green stompy. How can I fix that?
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May 1, 2018 19:28
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I mean, we can combine both of the discussion threads we just had and you can play this deck: .dekCreature (10) 3 Lyra Dawnbringer 2 Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage 2 Torrential Gearhulk 3 Walking Ballista Instant (15) 1 Commit // Memory 3 Glimmer of Genius 2 Negate 3 Settle the Wreckage 3 Supreme Will 3 Syncopate Enchantment (7) 1 Cast Out 4 Seal Away 2 Search for Azcanta Land (26) 3 Field of Ruin 4 Glacial Fortress 4 Irrigated Farmland 7 Island 1 Memorial to Genius 6 Plains 1 Scavenger Grounds Planeswalker (2) 2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria Sideboard 2 Negate 3 Authority of the Consuls 2 Essence Scatter 2 Forsake the Worldly 1 Fumigate 1 Gideon of the Trials 2 Silent Gravestone 2 Urza's Ruinous Blast
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May 1, 2018 19:29
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Katana Gomai posted:Playing Mono-red on MTGO and so far it feels like it folds HARD against Mono-green stompy. How can I fix that? are you running chainwhirlers?
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May 1, 2018 19:35
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Katana Gomai posted:Playing Mono-red on MTGO and so far it feels like it folds HARD against Mono-green stompy. How can I fix that? Don't let your opponent keep Llanowar Elves on the board.
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May 1, 2018 19:36
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quote:General | Master of the Wild Hunt no longer prevents the game from continuing when it has a negative power. mtgo lol
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May 1, 2018 19:37
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I wish standard had a 1cmc dork that tapped for R instead of the normal Llanowar Elves and such, like Avacyn's Pilgrim and Elves of Deep Shadow for W and B respectively.
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May 1, 2018 19:37
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Angry Grimace posted:I mean, we can combine both of the discussion threads we just had and you can play this deck: I'm 90% the historic version is almost strictly worse than pure control The Shortest Path posted:I wish standard had a 1cmc dork that tapped for R instead of the normal Llanowar Elves and such, like Avacyn's Pilgrim and Elves of Deep Shadow for W and B respectively. Llanowar Elves being back really makes the fact that there was no 1cmc treasure dude even more confusing
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May 1, 2018 19:41
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The Shortest Path posted:I wish standard had a 1cmc dork that tapped for R instead of the normal Llanowar Elves and such, like Avacyn's Pilgrim and Elves of Deep Shadow for W and B respectively. Skirk Prospector can do that as a one shot; Skirk Prospector into Wily Goblin means you can make like 5 mana on turn 5. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 19:49 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 19:45
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Katana Gomai posted:Playing Mono-red on MTGO and so far it feels like it folds HARD against Mono-green stompy. How can I fix that? I don't think Mono Red is very good right now.
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May 1, 2018 19:49
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little munchkin posted:mtgo lol why would master of the wild hunt's power even matter it isn't used anywhere in the ability
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May 1, 2018 19:53
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BaronVonVaderham posted:I used to loathe control mirrors, but I kind of dig it now. Some games one player just draws every counter and the other doesn't, but most of the time I feel like I really have to play my hardest and every single decision matters. I fully agree. Non-games happen in any matchup, but the games where both players are executing their game plan in control mirrors are peak gameplay imo
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May 1, 2018 19:54
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monogreen stompy owns btw
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May 1, 2018 19:56
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