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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:There are always going to be some units that are more valuable than other units, in a given tournament meta. Thus I agree, some units have fundamental power advantages. But that's just how it's going to be in reality. The goal isn't to remove power advantages, because that's impossible. IMO, the two goals are: I mean yeah, a game with this many variables at this update rate is going to have imbalances. But my point was not that this isn't going to happen, but that ANY unit that is being spammed is being spammed because it has an advantage and it needs to be fixed. It doesnt matter what role it has - just because it's a "troops" doesnt mean it's okay. Troops should not be inherently imbalanced and if you're taking more of them than other units (which most armies ALREADY do) then it's because of a specific role they're playing in the army. That shouldn't be controversial as GW is already committed to rebalancing at least once a year with minor rebalancing at the half mark. Also, let's be clear, if we're justifying "fluff" as the reason troops spam is a good thing then like half the armies have the wrong units in their troops categories. Boon fucked around with this message at 22:51 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 22:34
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I hear you that a unit being spammed means it’s the best. But there’s always going to be a best unit in an army. Whatever is the best unit in an army, will be the unit played the most. Thats only a problem if it’s easily stomping other armies. “There are lots of venoms, troops, and ravagers in Drukhari lists” is only a problem if they steam roll all other armies.
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May 1, 2018 22:51
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Games > Traditional Games > Warhammer 40,000: 8th Edition Copiarum Imperio Delenda Est According to Google Translate that's "Supreme Command Detachment" in Latin
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May 1, 2018 22:52
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:There's always going to be an "X" though. The design structure of the game is such that, for a given tournament meta, something will be the most efficient. At which point people will take as much of "X' as they can. When that allotment is full, the they will then take "Xii". Actually if it's 1pt more efficient the game outcome then chalks up to the RNG and skill way more than the list building. You're essentially arguing it can never be perfectly balanced so why try. The answer is because there IS such a thing as 'relatively balanced'. Will the meta still be dominated by spam and theory crafting? Probably, but most of it will be for little realized gain if it's for 1pt effeciencies. Do you ever get to stop and say "okay it's balanced now"? No. Even the original StarCraft still gets balance patches I think. Is this game monumentally more difficult to balance than StarCraft? Probably, there is a shitload more asymmetry in this. Still, at the core if you can dial in costs you can be reasonably balanced. Recost stuff, see what gets spammed, recost stuff etc and so forth. The more things costed appropriately the better for the game as a whole.
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May 1, 2018 22:54
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Technowolf posted:The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Games > Traditional Games > Warhammer 40,000: 8th Edition Copiarum Imperio Delenda Est Call it High Gothic and then pretend that whatever butchered Latin phrase Google spat out was totally intended.
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May 1, 2018 22:55
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MasterSlowPoke posted:Yeah, that's the Primaris Kill Team I was talking about in that post. You'll still be able to take a squad of just Reivers or whatever, just like you can take a squad of just Vanguard Vets or Bikers. Sure, but if I can also take them as Troops why wouldn't I?
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May 1, 2018 23:04
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Sure, but if I can also take them as Troops why wouldn't I? Quite possible that the special ammo will make them cost more?
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May 1, 2018 23:05
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General Olloth posted:Quite possible that the special ammo will make them cost more? Unless the price is exorbitant I would gladly pay it for Aggressors or Inceptors that can add +1 to hit stuff in cover, wound non-vehicles on 2+, add 6" and get -1AP, or subtract 6" and get -2 AP. Inceptors dropping in and shooting something with 6 S5 AP -2 shots each would be pretty brutal.
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May 1, 2018 23:16
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The new kill team is likely to model itself after the normal space marine one. You'll be able to take the variants, but you'll need a base of standard dudes first.
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May 1, 2018 23:19
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Safety Factor posted:The new kill team is likely to model itself after the normal space marine one. You'll be able to take the variants, but you'll need a base of standard dudes first. That wouldn't be surprising. A core of 5 Intercessors wouldn't be too bad, especially combined with Aggressors. I'm not sure how well Reivers or Inceptors would synergize, maybe Hellblasters.
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May 1, 2018 23:46
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:There's always going to be an "X" though. The design structure of the game is such that, for a given tournament meta, something will be the most efficient. At which point people will take as much of "X' as they can. When that allotment is full, the they will then take "Xii". That seems like an odd thing to say. Most units aren't generically good, they're good at something. Hellblasters are fine, but if you made them a few points cheaper they wouldn't suddenly become a hard spam unit. You'd see more and they'd be better but it wouldn't be much better against melee stuff or hordes or whatever. If you made them 5 points each though, then I'd make an army of hundreds of the guys and it'd probably be point efficient to use them as a melee only force.
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May 2, 2018 00:01
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TTerrible posted:Remember when Warhammer threads on SA mocked people like Dr Thunder instead of harbouring them as top posters. The good old days™ Neurolimal posted:I just find it fun to debate stuff. If you keep an open mind at best you'll persuade someone towards your line of thinking, learn something new (be it in general or the people you're talking to) and at worst you realize you're wrong and can now have a more informed stance. I dont see any benefits to letting yourself be shouted down. An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded. Now, gently caress off with your flimsy rationale for fetishising robot skeleton toys you weird arse.
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May 2, 2018 00:22
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Safety Factor posted:The new kill team is likely to model itself after the normal space marine one. You'll be able to take the variants, but you'll need a base of standard dudes first. Being able to put some ablative wounds in the way of your aggressors would massively improve them. They're deadly but lord they die in a stiff breeze.
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May 2, 2018 00:52
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General Olloth posted:Actually if it's 1pt more efficient the game outcome then chalks up to the RNG and skill way more than the list building. I am 100% arguing for balancing the game as best as it can be. In this case 'relatively balanced' as you said. I also agree that iterative balancing should occur. But you just admitted the meta will still likely be dominated by spamming the best units (however we define "best" for a given meta). I think it's cooler and more fluffy if it turns out that the core troop units are the units people spam instead of 9 demon princes.
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May 2, 2018 01:08
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded. Now, gently caress off with your flimsy rationale for fetishising robot skeleton toys you weird arse. Not sure how "sentient robot has a disposable body and can do with it however they want, because they can resurrect" is a filmsy rationale. It's not like Necrons are practical designs in the first place.
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May 2, 2018 01:21
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A German version of kill team benefits have leaked. Inceptors give the squad fall back and shoot, Reivers the LD debuff, Helblasters just the gun, and Aggressors remove the penalty for moving with Heavy Weapons and advancing with Assault weapons. Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Unless the price is exorbitant I would gladly pay it for Aggressors or Inceptors that can add +1 to hit stuff in cover, wound non-vehicles on 2+, add 6" and get -1AP, or subtract 6" and get -2 AP. Inceptors dropping in and shooting something with 6 S5 AP -2 shots each would be pretty brutal. Aggressors and Inceptors don't get SIA, and that's probably for the best. Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Sure, but if I can also take them as Troops why wouldn't I? They're not Troop choices? I honestly don't understand. MasterSlowPoke fucked around with this message at 01:36 on May 2, 2018 |
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May 2, 2018 01:34
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MasterSlowPoke posted:A German version of kill team benefits have leaked. Inceptors give the squad fall back and shoot, Reivers the LD debuff, Helblasters just the gun, and Aggressors remove the penalty for moving with Heavy Weapons and advancing with Assault weapons. Whoa, those seem like strong buffs for Aggressors
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May 2, 2018 01:37
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On the other hand, anchoring a 5-man Intercessor squad around an Aggressor for a heavy base of fire that gives no fucks about anything sounds awesome.
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May 2, 2018 01:42
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Motherfuckin mandrakes, goddamn those things are tough. 17 points for deep strikers with 18" weapons that mortal wound on 6, tons of attacks, 8" movement, 5+ invuln. Yikes
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May 2, 2018 01:44
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:Whoa, those seem like strong buffs for Aggressors 5 Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles, 4 Plasma Inceptors, and an Aggressor will have a lot of mobile firepower, with 10 effective T5 wounds for protection.
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May 2, 2018 01:48
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MasterSlowPoke posted:5 Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles, 4 Plasma Inceptors, and an Aggressor will have a lot of mobile firepower, with 10 effective T5 wounds for protection. 5 Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles, 4 Heavy Hellblasters, and an Aggressor will have a poo poo load of more-mobile-than-usual firepower and truly absurd AP all around.
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May 2, 2018 01:49
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Probably not worth the reduction of shots.
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May 2, 2018 01:50
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MasterSlowPoke posted:Probably not worth the reduction of shots. I mean, you say that, but I think wounding all Tyranids on 2s potentially rerolling 1s with AP-2 might make up for a lot of bullets not fired. Against smaller targets you can get up to AP-4. They'd definitely be the "heavy/elite infantry surgical removal tool" version of the kill team.
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May 2, 2018 01:52
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Is it safe to assume that Sisters will be based on 32mm because Veridyan and the Geminiae were? Eisenhorn and all the AoS stuff is going 32 so it seems like a no-brainer. I found my pile of metal SoB's (  ) and they're about all I need to bring my guard from 1k to 2k.
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May 2, 2018 01:54
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moths posted:Is it safe to assume that Sisters will be based on 32mm because Veridyan and the Geminiae were? Eisenhorn and all the AoS stuff is going 32 so it seems like a no-brainer. If it's in Power Armor it'll be on a 32mm. Mechanicus and Sisters and Scions are all kind of calling to me as an Imperial army, though. Ugh.
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May 2, 2018 01:57
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TheBigAristotle posted:Motherfuckin mandrakes, goddamn those things are tough. 17 points for deep strikers with 18" weapons that mortal wound on 6, tons of attacks, 8" movement, 5+ invuln. Yikes Oh I forgot they get -1 to hit them
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May 2, 2018 02:44
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Neurolimal posted:Not sure how "sentient robot has a disposable body and can do with it however they want, because they can resurrect" is a filmsy rationale. It's not like Necrons are practical designs in the first place. alien skeleton robot has a ribcage => alien skeleton robot has tits is a hell of a stretch you loving weirdo.
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May 2, 2018 02:48
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Schadenboner posted:I mean, if you really want more than 30 Terminators (which in fluff terms represents nearly a third of the entire Deathwing I think?) Only for the purposes of the Inquisitor standing there with a tallyboard. It's long been hinted that the Dark Angels ignore the 1000 man limit for the purposes of an expanded Deathwing and Ravenwing. The current codex is quite explicit about this in that the composition for each of companies three through ten add up to 100 Space Marines. But companies one (Deathwing) and two (Ravenwing) have "undisclosed" numbers of squads. Two Beans posted:Aren't there also veterans in power armor in the DA 1st company? 1st company Deathwing are always in terminator armour. There are Deathwing members who are not assigned to the first company, and they can wear power armour. For some reason, in this edition Dark Angels Veterans don't get the Deathwing keyword, so they don't get the Deathwing buffs. Outside of their bodyguard rule, they don't seem to serve much of a purpose. So pointless, in fact, that they're not actually listed in the (fluff purposes) force organization chart. It isn't clear if that's an error by GW or more ignoring the 1000 marine limit. Safety Factor posted:Don't forget the 30 tartaros terminators and 30 cataphractii terminators. It's simply IMPOSSIBLE. We can rehash this again I guess. All Deathwing armies were part of 40k from the 2nd edition up until the rule of 3. Games Workshop released the rule of 3 in a rushed response after their dev team was repeatedly crushed by spammy armies. They forgot that Deathwing existed, possibly because terminators aren't used competitively. Players could work within the rule of 3 and go buy Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators to fill out a "Deathwing" army. But Deathwing models are better, people already have them and no balance benefits arise from prohibiting 4+ Deathwing squads. It'll get fixed once Games Workshop remembers Deathwing exist. And in the interim it doesn't matter because no one is taking terminators to a tournament, or objecting if someone did.
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May 2, 2018 03:07
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Neurolimal posted:Not sure how "sentient robot has a disposable body and can do with it however they want, because they can resurrect" is a filmsy rationale. It's not like Necrons are practical designs in the first place. Let me guess, you play skyrim/the sims/whatever with all the nudity and sex mods you possibly can because "they can do whatever they want and it's more realistic" you creepy weirdo. At least people who do that are doing it in the privacy of their own homes rather than forcing other people to play with their weird fetish models. Your argument also doesn't hold up given your long effortpost on alternative sisters, of which your favorites were the ones with giant power armor tits because "their armor is fancy and gothic and baroque not practical, it makes sense"
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May 2, 2018 03:12
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:I am 100% arguing for balancing the game as best as it can be. In this case 'relatively balanced' as you said. I also agree that iterative balancing should occur. But you just admitted the meta will still likely be dominated by spamming the best units (however we define "best" for a given meta). I think it's cooler and more fluffy if it turns out that the core troop units are the units people spam instead of 9 demon princes. Okay I'm with you there actually, I was making the same argument the other day in person. At least then all the armies will LOOK like armies with actual footsoldiers. Yeah I know it would mean elite armies are less good in the meta, but also, 
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May 2, 2018 03:31
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General Olloth posted:Okay I'm with you there actually, I was making the same argument the other day in person. At least then all the armies will LOOK like armies with actual footsoldiers. In my opinion, a perfect world would have troops units being the most efficient by something like 3-5%. Perfect balance is an impossibility, but things being that close means that you're less likely to win simply by virtue of a netlist, and the netlists would actually look like armies and be interesting to play against.
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May 2, 2018 03:40
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How much money has been blown on Neuroliminal's avs?
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May 2, 2018 03:52
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Terminators are pretty expsensive points wise and power lv wise. You could fit more than 30 into an average list but I'm not sure it'd be functional plus you can only deep strike half that now.
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May 2, 2018 03:53
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For_Great_Justice posted:Terminators are pretty expsensive points wise and power lv wise. You could fit more than 30 into an average list but I'm not sure it'd be functional plus you can only deep strike half that now. I usually keep a unit of shooty termies around to deep strike with Lysander but I'm considering going with inceptors to pop in and soften up the targets for him to follow up instead. Less commitment for the same purpose, shielding the big guy till he can drag that hammer over
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May 2, 2018 04:04
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The Impaler posted:How much money has been blown on Neuroliminal's avs?
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May 2, 2018 04:05
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Like an IG army's worth at this point
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May 2, 2018 04:06
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TheBigAristotle posted:I usually keep a unit of shooty termies around to deep strike with Lysander but I'm considering going with inceptors to pop in and soften up the targets for him to follow up instead. Less commitment for the same purpose, shielding the big guy till he can drag that hammer over Getting Lysander in as safely as possible is aces for a plan. You rarely see him so when he starts doing poo poo people just poop when he hits at like strength 10 on 3s. Surrounded by rerolling terminators. Give them plasma for funsises. I did Abbadon with ten slaanesh terminators with plasma, an a term sorcerer with prescience. With the shoot twice strat they hit on 2s with two rounds of shooting, with rerolls, so they can safely overcharge. They ripped the primaris tank off the field in one round along with everything else in 12 inches.
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May 2, 2018 04:16
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The Impaler posted:How much money has been blown on Neuroliminal's avs? Get well Lowtax!
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May 2, 2018 04:20
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For_Great_Justice posted:Getting Lysander in as safely as possible is aces for a plan. You rarely see him so when he starts doing poo poo people just poop when he hits at like strength 10 on 3s. Surrounded by rerolling terminators. Give them plasma for funsises. Marine terminators can't really take plasma except I think on tartaros sergeants, which really sucks. I'd love a unit of combi plasma + lightning claw.
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May 2, 2018 04:20
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Booley posted:Marine terminators can't really take plasma except I think on tartaros sergeants, which really sucks. I'd love a unit of combi plasma + lightning claw. Space Wolves can. All other chapters forgot that other Combi-weapons for Terminators was a thing
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May 2, 2018 04:39
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