|
did you read vol 2? his section on the spanish civil war is kind of 
|
#
?
May 1, 2018 17:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 13:12 |
|
|
GalacticAcid posted:did you read vol 2? his section on the spanish civil war is kind of half way through it and yeah sure you got that right  then again, it's not a book on the spanish civil war and it's a rather fleeting part in soviet internal politics so yeah... may the lord forgive him 
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2018 17:24
|
|
|
the fact that the worst thing i've ever heard anyone accuse him of is giving a perfunctory and blinkered examination of a subject he very consciously did not set out to cover... idk, there has to be something worse in there, a bigger mistake? right?
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2018 17:29
|
|
|
he's a firm ideological liberal and it shows in his admiration for the US, and I think we'll see this distort his analysis of the postwar order in Volume 3. See his New Yorker review of Hobsbawm's memoir "Interesting Times" from September 2003 -- Left Behind: Is Eric Hobsbawm History? It's clear he admires Hobsbawm as a historian, but then drops things like this: Kotkin posted:Having married a “Viennese-born girl,” and bought his first car and a house, he acquired a holiday cottage in the Welsh highlands, where the Hobsbawms and other second-home literati “voluntarily lived under the sort of conditions we condemned capitalism for imposing on its exploited toilers.” Hobsbawm’s world, like the twentieth century, was constituted by total war, imperial ruin, artistic modernism, mass unemployment, displacement, and political fanaticism, but ultimately it saw the triumph of stability and prosperity—a triumph that he takes to be a defeat. so he considers the modern world a 'triumph of stability and prosperity' which, if you're posting in this thread, i imagine you take issue with on some level lol
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2018 17:37
|
|
|
Well he does say so in the beginning quite openly, so personally i'll forgive him for being human as long as it doesn't detract from the factual qualities of the work. Him saying "lenin bad" a few times should't really bother anyone in their right mind. goddamn i'm not defending the man am i oh god i am
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2018 17:46
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/JackDexterity/status/990636018054369282
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2018 18:37
|
|
|
GalacticAcid posted:he's a firm ideological liberal and it shows in his admiration for the US, and I think we'll see this distort his analysis of the postwar order in Volume 3. See his New Yorker review of Hobsbawm's memoir "Interesting Times" from September 2003 -- Left Behind: Is Eric Hobsbawm History? time to take a big sip of coffee and visit the wikipedia articles for major events in 2004 onwards
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2018 18:58
|
|
|
lollontee posted:half way through it and yeah sure you got that right in one of his lectures kotkin identified Kolchak as Stalin's right hand man so take everything with a critical glance also 
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2018 20:53
|
|
|
Top City Homo posted:in one of his lectures kotkin identified Kolchak as Stalin's right hand man you sure??
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2018 20:58
|
|
|
Top City Homo posted:in one of his lectures kotkin identified Kolchak as Stalin's right hand man drat me and marx almost share a b day
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2018 21:07
|
|
|
A spectre👻👻 is haunting👻 🌍Europe🌍 — the spectre 👻of communism☭☭☭☭. All the 💪💪powers of old Europe💪 have entered into a 🙏 holy alliance 🙏to exorcise this spectre👻👻👻: Pope 💩💩and Tsar💩👎👎, Metternich💩 and Guizot💩💩💩, French Radicals🇫🇷🇫🇷👎👎👎 and German police-spies🚮🚮🚮🚮. Where is the🎉 party🎉🎉 in opposition that has not been 😿decried😿😿 as communistic☭☭☭☭ by its 😦😦opponents in power😦? Where is the opposition that has not hurled back the branding🔥🔥 reproach🔥🔥🔥🔥 of ☭☭☭☭communism☭☭, against the more advanced🎊 opposition parties🎊🎊🎊, as well as against its 🙅🙅🙅🙅reactionary adversaries🙅🙅? 🕑Two things🕑 result from this fact📕📕: I. ☭☭☭☭Communism☭☭ is already acknowledged by all 💪European powers💪💪 to be itself a 💪💪☭power☭💪. II. It is 🕛‼️🕛high time🕛🕛🕛❗ that ☭☭Communists☭☭☭ should openly, in the 😛😛😛face😛😛 of the 🌍whole🌍 world🌍🌍🌍, publish📕📕 their📕 views📕📕📕, their 🎯aims🎯🎯, their tendencies☭☭, and meet this 🍼nursery🍼🍼 tale🍼📕🍼 of the 👻Spectre👻 of Communism👻👻 ☭ 👻☭ with a manifesto📕📕 of the party📕🎊☭ itself. happy may day
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2018 23:03
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:you sure?? my mistake i looked it over again and he actually said that Roman von Ungern-Sternberg the crazy ur-nazi who took over mongolia worked with the soviets to deliver mongolia to them
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 00:27
|
|
|
apropos to nothing posted:i havent read it and if i do it will not be any time soon as i already have a backlog of stuff to read! a friend of mine and historian even published a book recently on american latino history that I still havent read yet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU1novFkMRI
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 15:22
|
|
|
here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU1novFkMRI&t=5512s too bad no one corrected him
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 15:31
|
|
|
I think he was referring to the demiurgic aura of Ungern-Sternberg's being such a colossally incompetent and insane butcherer, that he just made every local he came across join the MPP by simply marching across the country. And killing everything the voices told him to.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 15:41
|
|
|
lollontee posted:I think he was referring to the demiurgic aura of Ungern-Sternberg's being such a colossally incompetent and insane butcherer, that he just made every local he came across join the MPP by simply marching across the country. And killing everything the voices told him to. in that case he is right but probably should have made it clearer
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 15:42
|
|
|
i simply cannot accept that criticism
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 15:43
|
|
|
Top City Homo posted:here it is I dunno, he's sort of just blowing past everything there and he probably hosed up. OTOH I dunno how you gently caress up a figure like Ungern von Sternberg.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 15:46
|
|
|
lollontee posted:i simply cannot accept that criticism we will have to split the party
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 16:14
|
|
|
idk if this is sufficiently ML for the thread but i came across a quote by i think kropotkin about how much labor goes into the property value of a house that's turned into profit by the landlord, and now i can't find it. does anyone know what im talking aobut?
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 16:26
|
|
|
StashAugustine posted:idk if this is sufficiently ML for the thread but i came across a quote by i think kropotkin about how much labor goes into the property value of a house that's turned into profit by the landlord, and now i can't find it. does anyone know what im talking aobut? are you perhaps thinking of a quote from this chapter of Capital -- Part VI. Transformation of Surplus-Profit into Ground-Rent - Chapter 37. Introduction
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 16:30
|
|
|
GalacticAcid posted:are you perhaps thinking of a quote from this chapter of Capital -- Part VI. Transformation of Surplus-Profit into Ground-Rent - Chapter 37. Introduction not the same quote but the same spirit
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 16:49
|
|
|
dont you mean spectre
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 17:27
|
|
|
These kind of historical arguments are things I used to find interesting and were marginally useful in my personal journey leftwards, but I think they are generally almost totally unattached from any sort of relevant question or issue for people today. Thats Not to say that history doesn’t have lessons to teach us, but this is just shooting the poo poo about history as if it was a comic book plot, wondering if Superman truly could defeat Goku or if Warriors truly embraces the non-aggression principle. Like, a more interesting and relevant thing to me from the history of the Russian Revolution would be a deeper dive into things like the National Question and the treatment of the Jewish Bund in relationship to the national/racial oppressions in America and Europe today.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 19:43
|
|
|
GalacticAcid posted:are you perhaps thinking of a quote from this chapter of Capital -- Part VI. Transformation of Surplus-Profit into Ground-Rent - Chapter 37. Introduction this is the top point of the children chanting KROPOTKIN alignment triangle
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 21:17
|
|
|
DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Like, a more interesting and relevant thing to me from the history of the Russian Revolution would be a deeper dive into things like the National Question and the treatment of the Jewish Bund in relationship to the national/racial oppressions in America and Europe today. Aight, care to expand your thoughts? I don't know much about Judaism in revolutionary Russia, besides the fact that pogroms were being carried out by reactionaries
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 21:20
|
|
|
Weeping Wound posted:this is the top point of the children chanting KROPOTKIN alignment triangle yeah reading it i was thinking "this is more informative but less cool, which is pretty much marxist_vs_anarchist.txt"
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 21:23
|
|
|
stephen kropotkin
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 21:23
|
|
|
reposted from the Suck Zone: What do you all think about workplace democracy? When I ask Google "how did workplace democracy turn out in Venezuela", all that turns up are these scholarly involved political science journal publications. I know that Venezuela is failing for unrelated reasons. There was a constitutional crisis, which could happen just as easily in a capitalist country, and it has happened in capitalist countries such as Turkey. They instituted price controls on things like toilet paper while refusing to pay market rates, shortages occurred, , then they blamed a capitalist conspiracy to undermine them -- but that's entirely unrelated to workplace democracy and it seems more related than communism than socialism. I can't really find a follow-up to the article Wikipedia links when saying that Venezuela set up worker's councils in factories, which shouldn't be a citation because it talks about it as a possible plan in future tense. Its effects in Venezuela would be difficult to disentangle from all the other policies that have led Venezuela's economy to destruction, which would make the only example where it has been tried a poor example for examining whether it worked. I expect people would attack it by association with Venezuela regardless of whether it worked.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2018 22:09
|
|
|
Dreddout posted:Aight, care to expand your thoughts? tsar alexander ii's assassination was the major event that facilitated the pogroms for one thing, iirc. the start of the 1880s facilitated by far the biggest wave of jewish refugees to the u.s.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2018 00:45
|
|
|
galenanorth posted:reposted from the Suck Zone: workplace democracy just results in self-exploitation because said workplaces are still bound to market pressures, even more than "state-capitalist" institutions are
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2018 00:47
|
|
|
galenanorth posted:reposted from the Suck Zone: academics are the only people doing deep dives into this system and not merely propagandizing. that isn't to say their work isn't ideological but it's one of the only places you'll find real information. for example, when researching workers' congresses and residential/village committees in china the only (and i mean only) place i could find information was in a hodgepodge of journals from jstor
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2018 02:11
|
|
|
Dreddout posted:Aight, care to expand your thoughts? https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03.htm there's a whole section on the bund that sums the situation up quite well
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2018 02:36
|
|
|
Yossarian-22 posted:workplace democracy just results in self-exploitation because said workplaces are still bound to market pressures, even more than "state-capitalist" institutions are Nah. Workers care about things other than just the pure economic output.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2018 03:31
|
|
|
workers distributing profit fairly and democratically to everyone in the firm. "this is exactly like capitalism," yossarian says. "i see no difference here"
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2018 03:48
|
|
|
reignonyourparade posted:Nah. Workers care about things other than just the pure economic output. If they care about keeping their jobs, they will care about retaining their market share which means staying competitive in the market.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2018 05:00
|
|
|
coops are vastly better than normal capitalism.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2018 05:04
|
|
|
Jizz Festival posted:If they care about keeping their jobs, they will care about retaining their market share which means staying competitive in the market. the degree of compromise that they will do in order to retain market share would be consensual among the workers though, rather than at some arbitrary point determined by the CEO. it's difficult to imagine the hellscape of Amazon warehouses with a single bathroom and ambulances instead of air conditioning being agreed to by the workers "just to stay ahead of the game"
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2018 05:06
|
|
|
The end result of a coop markets exhibit is niche firms exploiting their market share to expropriate the surplus value of other forms. Its still capitalism. thats not a reason to oppose it, you still support it because its a step up from what we have now, same reason you support minimum wage
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2018 05:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 13:12 |
|
|
the workers in a democratically controlled workplace would actually be exploiting themselves because they would be forced to compete in the market against other worker-controlled firms to maintain the profits of the company that they actually own so basically to sum it up socialism is literally capitalism i mean whats even the point
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2018 05:08
|
|