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bulwark lovers seem to think this is a zero sum topic of conversation and are wrong about that too.
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May 7, 2018 19:33
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Got a second ppc-catapult and made it into a dumb jj dual-ac10 mech since i hade a few ++ of those around. First mission i put a random rookie in it, very first shot she headcaps an Orion for lethal damage. Welcome to the team Goosefoot!
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May 7, 2018 19:34
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Noir89 posted:Got a second ppc-catapult and made it into a dumb jj dual-ac10 mech since i hade a few ++ of those around. First mission i put a random rookie in it, very first shot she headcaps an Orion for lethal damage. I love "new mech, first mission, headshot" stories
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May 7, 2018 19:37
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My Merc unit is currently weekend at bernieing my PC as I was melted into a gelatinous goo on the first shot by a headcap from some dickwad with a bunch of lasers in what was otherwise a milk run. At least nothing irreplacable on my Star League highlander was damaged.
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May 7, 2018 19:37
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i cant believe people are talking about game mechanics in the game thread
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May 7, 2018 19:37
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bulwark seriously needs a nerf, though come to think of it, making it not work when rotating might be a good first step. or making it the tier-2 skill for guts so it's an actual choice what to take.
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May 7, 2018 19:38
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Psion posted:I love "new mech, first mission, headshot" stories Of course later on the same mission she missed a heavy sniper turret with 90% hitchance allowing it to take a turn and wreck one of my actually good mechs side torsos with an ammo explosion sooo 
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May 7, 2018 19:43
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What needs a nerf is the incentive to sit in one place and funnel mechs into a prepared killzone where you cripple or kill two while all your guys have max evasion or bulwark up and they have, uh, a functioning stock jagermech and some slowass assault out of view
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May 7, 2018 19:44
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Gonna assume they're a big M*A*S*H fan. I'm not creative enough to come up with my own names for my 'Mechs so I settle for references. Ragingsheep posted:I'm just saying that you could probably get rid of the two single heat sinks and up the LRM10 to a 15. I don't think I have another LRM 15 with +stab damage. awesmoe posted:you're gonna be firing every turn once your sensor lock pilot gets in range, so.... "sensor lock" pilot like I'm don't build every pilot as a lancer. My scout is frequently my Grasshopper, "Disco" That LRM20 with +2 stab damage is loving ludicrous, pretty much unsteadies everyone except elite pilots. Then they get plopped with a PPC and take a seat. With that load out I can usually knockdown at least two 'mechs a turn, depending. It's Glitch's 'mech btw. I basically run one close range brawler (My King Crab), one dedicated LRM platform (in this game, basically Centurion > kintaro > battlemaster > stalker, i'm grossly dissapointed that the catapult C2 only has TWO missile hardpoints), a direct fire sniper (highlander, awesome, something like that) and then a wildcard unit based on what I feel like trying out or what I think the mission needs. Melee brawler/scout, another LRM platform, another brawler/tank, etc.
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May 7, 2018 19:44
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Zigmidge posted:bulwark lovers seem to think this is a zero sum topic of conversation and are wrong about that too. Then actually try to make a case for it instead of saying incredibly dumb poo poo like "evasion is good for hiding behind terrain" and "pilots with bulwark can still move". Evasion is worth more in a PvP scenario where you're fighting 4v4 and "sacrificing your queen to take their king" type strategies are less self-defeating. In PvE there are a lot more guns on the field to remove your evasion plus there's the fact that it does nothing to reduce the damage that inevitably does hit, nor does it do anything about stability damage, which gets thrown around like candy past the mid-game.
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May 7, 2018 19:44
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Reiterpallasch posted:uh fyi bulwark still works if you rotate in place doesn't change my point. think about it. You shoot at an enemy who then deadsides you. If you're bulwarking, all you can do is rotate armor so you don't expose a weak side to them, you cannot force the initiative to get into their weakened side again unless they choose to present it to you. That is what I mean when i say you concede positioning. It's about dealing damage to them AND protecting your own weak spots, not just one or the other. SpookyLizard posted:
I tend to run 2 brawlers so they don't get focus fired as hard (AI isn't always good about going for the kill except when you get knocked down) and then a longer-range sniper and a LRM boat, so pretty similar comp to yours. Works really well. Psion fucked around with this message at 19:48 on May 7, 2018 |
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May 7, 2018 19:45
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Control Volume posted:What needs a nerf is the incentive to sit in one place and funnel mechs into a prepared killzone where you cripple or kill two while all your guys have max evasion or bulwark up and they have, uh, a functioning stock jagermech and some slowass assault out of view Letting sensor lock strip Bulwark seems like it'd do the trick
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May 7, 2018 19:47
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In my first run of the game one of my pilots had both pilot skills and bulwark, and it kinda worked? Honestly i'd rather move my mech and just spend the morale on vigilance.
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May 7, 2018 19:48
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A lot of the problem is that the game rewards you (and everything else) for just using a larger mech. There isn't any reason not to. While I do think that there are ways to mitigate this, they don't currently exist in the game. That said, there is a mod that removes storyline difficulty boosts and a slew of other stuff.
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May 7, 2018 19:48
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Catching with the thread; the min/max is real and is not my friend...
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May 7, 2018 19:54
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Its not true grognard/minmaxing if its against the AI- I await the minmaxing in multiplayer!
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May 7, 2018 20:01
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Some of you are really upset that some of us don't take bulwark. Maybe you should instead be upset you're playing a strategy game with some of the worst AI ever.
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May 7, 2018 20:02
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Zigmidge posted:Some of you are really upset that some of us don't take bulwark. We get it, you're too good for this game and if you made it it would be a lot better. Your post history in this thread reads like a transcript of depression quest.
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May 7, 2018 20:04
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Bulwark would be way less overpowered if the AI wasn't trash, it's true.
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May 7, 2018 20:04
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mlmp08 posted:If you don’t powergame correctly, I will post about it on the Internet. e: Zigmidge posted:Some of you are really upset that some of us don't take bulwark. hey you're a giant piece of poo poo in this thread too! 
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May 7, 2018 20:05
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Astroniomix posted:Then actually try to make a case for it instead of saying incredibly dumb poo poo like "evasion is good for hiding behind terrain" and "pilots with bulwark can still move". Evasion is an incidental benefit. The entire point of Ace (for me) is to shoot, then move out of LOS. If I get lots of evasion, well yay, some mitigation for indirect fire or if someone moves into LOS to shoot. But I'm more interested in the big pile of dirt than I am pips.
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May 7, 2018 20:10
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ditty bout my clitty posted:We get it, you're too good for this game and if you made it it would be a lot better. Your post history in this thread reads like a transcript of depression quest. My post history in this thread says the AI is bad and evasion isn't as bad as others say. Sorry you can't cope.
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May 7, 2018 20:17
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It's kind of a dick move to have the ammo carriers in Smithon not instantly die when their armor is breached like literally other vehicle in the game. My bonus 
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May 7, 2018 20:19
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Larger mechs are encouraged because mobility isnt required since the AI does a deathmarch into your static position, and in battles the only thing mobility gets you is the ability to backstab, which is generally on par with just bringing a mech with more guns to match the frontal armor, and also requires ace piloting to avoid being vulnerable to a melee attack or just being overwhelmed by sheer volume of fire. HBS is apparently going to to add missions that make lights mobility useful strategically, but as missions and infinite weight limits stand, I think the only real fix to this is making the AI use sensor lock and LRMs more which is kind of a poo poo way to fix things
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May 7, 2018 20:21
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Psion posted:doesn't change my point. think about it. You shoot at an enemy who then deadsides you. If you're bulwarking, all you can do is rotate armor so you don't expose a weak side to them, you cannot force the initiative to get into their weakened side again unless they choose to present it to you. That is what I mean when i say you concede positioning. It's about dealing damage to them AND protecting your own weak spots, not just one or the other. time to kill is really low in this game for the player though? like in real battletech and mwo or whatever you want to get behind the enemy because gently caress trying to cut through all that armor from the front, yeah. but knockdown + free called shot bullshit in hbs battletech mean that you can just blap any mech within visual range dead in a single turn from the front from the second you can scrape together a LRM boat.
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May 7, 2018 20:24
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In other words its good the AI is bad because optimal AI would be awful to fight against
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May 7, 2018 20:24
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RBA Starblade posted:It's kind of a dick move to have the ammo carriers in Smithon not instantly die when their armor is breached like literally other vehicle in the game. My bonus Don't they? You have to breach the armor and do enough damage to the structure, it's possible they have a little more structure.
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May 7, 2018 20:24
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I did this when I only had medium mechs. Took an Assassination mission and it had useful terrain and a lot of unstable ground to force the enemies over. A few lucky shots as well.  After this mission I had 1 Orion and I completed the second Orion on the next mission after it.
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May 7, 2018 20:25
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i'm not saying this is a good thing. it's actually terrible! but it's also true.
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May 7, 2018 20:25
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Promethium posted:Don't they? You have to breach the armor and do enough damage to the structure, it's possible they have a little more structure. All you have to do is get through the armor on others I thought. I mean it was like 100k so whatever but still! It's a pretty fun mission though there needs to be more explosive hazards or aoe damage
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May 7, 2018 20:27
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Made a BeforeIPlay page for Battletech. Guys take a look and suggest anything to add?
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May 7, 2018 20:27
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RBA Starblade posted:All you have to do is get through the armor on others I thought. You actually have to destroy the structure in at least one part of the vehicle for it to die, this is true of all vehicles. It's just not apparent until later in the game where you get vehicles with enough armor to withstand more than a pair of medium lasers.
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May 7, 2018 20:32
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RBA Starblade posted:All you have to do is get through the armor on others I thought. All vehicles work the same way, the issue is that the ammo carriers have more than single-digit internal structure so you won't necessarily get rid of it all in the same shot that you breach the armour. This is a thing that can happen with other heavy vehicles if you're trying to be cute and not overkill them (see: Demolishers).
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May 7, 2018 20:32
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Psion posted:doesn't change my point. think about it. You shoot at an enemy who then deadsides you. If you're bulwarking, all you can do is rotate armor so you don't expose a weak side to them, you cannot force the initiative to get into their weakened side again unless they choose to present it to you. That is what I mean when i say you concede positioning. It's about dealing damage to them AND protecting your own weak spots, not just one or the other. here's the problem for me. i genuinely cannot envision lights surviving into the current endgame. like if you can do it, congratulations, but that's a level of stress i genuinely don't want to deal with. bigger mechs is more guns, is more armor, is better guns. so i'm going to assume you are still running largely heavies/assaults, maybe mediums. with my current setup of heavies/assaults, i can still average 2-3 evasion per movement just by walking around. if i'm willing to pump up some jjs in exchange for some of my guns ( i still have jjs on most of my mechs, even as assault due to drop weirdness. ), i can average 4-5ish evasion. max evasion is 7. each evasion pip is roughly a 5% chance to hit. so at 7 you get -35% chance to be hit. at my worst ( 3 ), i'm still getting -15%. at my best ( 5 ), i'm getting -25% chance to be hit. i play the situation i need to be in. so if i need to trade shots i lean on bulwark and let them hit me. if i need to maneuver, i'll jj over and get some evasion pips along the way before rebulkwarking. that puts everything you say in basically a crossroads situation. if you are going med/heavies to lean on evasion, you are dramatically cutting out armor/weapons/power for basically -10% chance to be hit. that's a bad combo. if you are going heavies/assaults and using evasive maneuvers, you are giving up probably bulwark in favor of an additional -5% chance to be hit. and like ok? that also reads to me to be a bad combo, but if you are in constant motion anyways bulwark won't help you, so eh. but even for my most jj heavy mech, there are constantly scenarios where it's time to settle into a position and just start shooting for a bit, and having that bulwark proc is a nice extra. i just don't see the math adding up either way. you aren't giving up a lot for -35%, you are giving up a lot for maybe -15% because it's really trivial to do the things you are doing with your evasion build on the base strong builds.
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May 7, 2018 20:41
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Control Volume posted:What needs a nerf is the incentive to sit in one place and funnel mechs into a prepared killzone where you cripple or kill two while all your guys have max evasion or bulwark up and they have, uh, a functioning stock jagermech and some slowass assault out of view This is how every tactical genius wins in the fluff though aside from like Hanse Davion soloing an entire lance of mediums in his assault mech.
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May 7, 2018 20:42
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:Made a BeforeIPlay page for Battletech. Guys take a look and suggest anything to add? I've got a shitload of notes I've been skimming from the thread, planning to put them together into a steam guide, but it looks like PoE is gonna come out and distract me before I get it written. I'll try to post them tonight.
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May 7, 2018 20:42
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:Made a BeforeIPlay page for Battletech. Guys take a look and suggest anything to add? -You can right click a mech/building to see the paper doll. -The leftmost spot on your lance is the leader spot, put the mechwarrior with the best voice set there.
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May 7, 2018 20:43
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Reiterpallasch posted:time to kill is really low in this game for the player though? like in real battletech and mwo or whatever you want to get behind the enemy because gently caress trying to cut through all that armor from the front, yeah. but knockdown + free called shot bullshit in hbs battletech mean that you can just blap any mech within visual range dead in a single turn from the front from the second you can scrape together a LRM boat. sure, but let's bring this back to the original point, which was you said evade isn't tenable because you'll get domed by an AC/20 at some point we're going a little far afield talking about how easy it is to knockdown and core a mech with LRMs here. which for the record I agree with, once you get enough LRMs, especially +stab LRMs, the knockdown and called shot combo is extremely, extremely powerful. but it has nothing to do with what you posted originally that I disagreed with. evade is both tenable and has value bulwark does not, if you take advantage of it. bulwark has value evade does not, if you take advantage of that. both are viable. that's all I've been trying to argue. (I use both  )
Psion fucked around with this message at 20:49 on May 7, 2018 |
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May 7, 2018 20:44
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I don't get DFA self damage. I have a firestarter with two leg enhancements providing -10 and -20 DFA damage. It is a 35 ton mech. Why is DFA dealing 15 damage to each leg when I use it?
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May 7, 2018 20:50
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compromise option: the ability to abuse both bulwark and evasion by vigilance + sprinting/jumping even on an assault is the real criminal here
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May 7, 2018 20:50
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