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Doc Hawkins posted:I'm concerned that Frank Herbert perhaps did not love his dead gay son. Yeah. He should have been remote with Brian instead...
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May 7, 2018 22:51
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I have vague memories of Butlerian Jihad. Someone mentioned the baby being thrown from a building, but it was so much worse than that. I'm going entirely off memory here. So the evil AI overlord had a lesser AI act as an overseer or something. I can't recall the name, but it started with an E so we'll call it Eric. Eric the robot would whip human slave laborers and administrate the various death camps. It began to grow curious about human creativity and experimented in art. That is to say Eric had humans rendered down and threw blood and organs at a canvas. At some point a human noble woman was captured and Eric the robot takes her for a slave. They banter back and forth about what it means to be human or some poo poo. Turns out she's preggers (with the Harkonnen protagonists baby) and gives birth. Eric the robot is fascinated at first, but either the lady or her baby pissed him off and he chucks the babu from a balcony. A bunch of slave humans see this and rise up somehow. Eric the robot gets dismantled, lamenting that he was finally figuring out emotions and wondering how this could all happen. That's about all I remember about that part of the book. I think a sandworm ate a robot at somepoint?
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May 7, 2018 23:04
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You know what the scariest thing about those KJA/Brian Herbert abominations? Some people like them.
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May 7, 2018 23:09
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Mutant Headcrab posted:I have vague memories of Butlerian Jihad. Someone mentioned the baby being thrown from a building, but it was so much worse than that. I'm going entirely off memory here. Weird. I didn't read but one or two of those EU books, but in the encycopedia it says that the baby dies because the life support system in the postnatal ward was an AI and it determined the baby wasn't viable. Jehann Butler (sic) tries to figure out what happened and discovers the AI has made a mistake and starts a campaign to disallow AIs in important human sectors. She joins forces with a religious order (implied to be at least partially working for the Bene Gesserit) and wages a war against Richese with a minimum of destruction. The idea was always half baked to everyone but Herbert because he only ever alluded to it. I really doubt his son and KJA's cymeks were in the story as they appear.
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May 7, 2018 23:12
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Mutant Headcrab posted:That's about all I remember about that part of the book. I think a sandworm ate a robot at somepoint? I had totally forgotten about that. The machines shoot out a bunch of Von Neumann Machines in a blatant way of setting up a way for the machines to come back as the bad guys in Dune 7 (which had not come out yet). One of them lands on Arrakis and gets eaten by a sandworm. It was complete throw-away plot point in the book, but after that chapter it became blatantly obvious that the whole reason the trilogy existed was for that single throw-away plot point to happen so that they could bring back their stupid robots as the Great Enemy.
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May 7, 2018 23:16
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paul_soccer10 posted:lmao the wiki summary for brian herberts version of the butlerian jihad I have an assistant AI program, which I name OMNIus because it helps me with SOME of my tasks yup yup no foreshadowing there now where’s that doctor that’s supposed to tear my brain out of my body and put it in this clanky Loony Toons-rear end lookin’ robot
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May 7, 2018 23:51
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Frank may have been a bad father. Bruce should have died knowing his dad loved him. But brian was clearly not hit violently enough
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May 7, 2018 23:57
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Robot Agamemnon throwing babies off of...hey wait here just one cottonpickin second
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May 8, 2018 00:21
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phasmid posted:Weird. I didn't read but one or two of those EU books, but in the encycopedia it says that the baby dies because the life support system in the postnatal ward was an AI and it determined the baby wasn't viable. Jehann Butler (sic) tries to figure out what happened and discovers the AI has made a mistake and starts a campaign to disallow AIs in important human sectors. She joins forces with a religious order (implied to be at least partially working for the Bene Gesserit) and wages a war against Richese with a minimum of destruction. That's the dune encyclopedia version, which Brian Herbert says is noncanonical because he wanted to make his own, much worse version
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May 8, 2018 01:34
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OMNIUS AND THE CYMEKS i prefer goon-named LORD CYBERTREX 8000
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May 8, 2018 01:35
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Did Brian write any sequels as well? I swear the machines return at the very end and the 2 leaders are literally called like Tim and Eric or something equally retarded
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May 8, 2018 01:51
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can't remember if this came up earlier in the thread but Dune Messiah has the Guild Steersman floating in a big tank and being somewhat deformed, so Lynch was at least not completely pulling that one out of his rear end
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May 8, 2018 01:52
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Mein Kampf Enthusiast posted:Did Brian write any sequels as well? I swear the machines return at the very end and the 2 leaders are literally called like Tim and Eric or something equally retarded Daniel and Marty. To Brian Herbert's credit they showed up in the last book Frank Herbert wrote but he didn't explain much about who they actually were. I think "these are the lead thinking machines from the past" was in Frank Herbert's notes. Granted Brian Herbert might have been lying about that one and made up his own bullshit to go on.
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May 8, 2018 01:54
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Daniel and Marty. Ok so the names are goofy as gently caress but I'm legit curious what Frank's actual notes on them were. Dunno how Hunters/Sandworms handled them, but giving them such obviously dated human names like that makes me wonder if maybe Frank would have presented them as actual humans, somehow involved with machine thinking and other of the more abstract ideas.
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May 8, 2018 01:58
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Mein Kampf Enthusiast posted:Ok so the names are goofy as gently caress but I'm legit curious what Frank's actual notes on them were. Dunno how Hunters/Sandworms handled them, but giving them such obviously dated human names like that makes me wonder if maybe Frank would have presented them as actual humans, somehow involved with machine thinking and other of the more abstract ideas. "programmites".
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May 8, 2018 02:10
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Mein Kampf Enthusiast posted:Ok so the names are goofy as gently caress but I'm legit curious what Frank's actual notes on them were. Dunno how Hunters/Sandworms handled them, but giving them such obviously dated human names like that makes me wonder if maybe Frank would have presented them as actual humans, somehow involved with machine thinking and other of the more abstract ideas. I doubt we'll ever actually see Frank Herbert's notes. I guarantee that Kevin J. and Brian Herbert were not faithful to them in ways that will be depressing.
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May 8, 2018 02:28
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Frank Herbert gholas now
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May 8, 2018 02:45
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maybe the next in line of the herbert estate has some respect for papa frank, and will disown Brian's nonsense and release the notes in some sort of unabridged volume.
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May 8, 2018 02:49
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Daniel and Marty. He's almost certainly full of poo poo. Daniel and Marty are heavily implied (if not outright stated) to be face dancers that went out during the scattering and subsequently absorbed so many lives/memories that they're gods, or at least godlike. They're what the honored matres are fleeing.
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May 8, 2018 03:04
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Norman spinrad on dune excerpt I like Thus Herbert portrays four levels of both the use of psycho-active drugs by a society and the corresponding levels of consciousness. The Fremen incorporate melange as the sacrament of a tribal religion. The Guild Navigators employ it as a pragmatic technological augment. The Bene Gesserit use it in vision quests and mind-melding sessions. Paul Atreides passes through these three ascending stages on his way to finally employing the drug to achieve the ultimate level, to become the Kwisatz Haderach, the fully Enlightened One, able to view the conventional realm of space and time from the outside, as Einsteinian four-space, a consciousness rendered therefore prescient up to a point, an Enlightenment that turns out to be both a godlike power and a tragic curse.
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May 8, 2018 03:40
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He shits on bh and kja a bit too http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1112
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May 8, 2018 03:42
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Communist Walrus posted:He's almost certainly full of poo poo. Daniel and Marty are heavily implied (if not outright stated) to be face dancers that went out during the scattering and subsequently absorbed so many lives/memories that they're gods, or at least godlike. They're what the honored matres are fleeing. That's very much the consensus throughout this thread, but even if they're not, the whole point of the Scattering was an infinite plethora of possibilities so, as has been said a ton of times in this thread, it's stupid and lazy to think it was Lord Cybertrex rather than some entirely new threat rising out of the crucible of human expansion and innovation into a limitless universe come back to prey on the boring static Old Empire.
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May 8, 2018 06:28
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phasmid posted:Robot Agamemnon throwing babies off of...hey wait here just one cottonpickin second I remember in Children of Dune, either Leto or Ghanima says something like "don't gently caress with me I'm an Atreides, a descendent of Agamemnon. But you don't know who that is, because he's so ancient my sibling and I are the only humans left who remember who that guy was." I read that and thought, "Oh yeah, Atreides is the name of the house of Agamemnon and Menaleus. So they're just being smug about remembering bronze age poetry, or perhaps in Dune the events of the Iliad are at least somewhat truthful or something." But no, she meant the lieutenant of Lord Cybertrex 9001 from 10,000 years ago who should be mentioned multiple times by name in the Orange Catholic Bible if he was really such an important figure in the prelude to the robo-jihad that is the most salient cultural event in human history at the point of the first three books.
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May 8, 2018 06:44
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Leto even repeatedly visits old earth in memory. It would make total sense for him to goonlord over obscure ancestry
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May 8, 2018 06:49
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A bit in the Dune Encyclopedia I like: Someone is introduced to a mentat at a party. Making conversation, she remarks that she's never met one before. He smiles and notes something down on a piece of paper, then says she can ask him any question she likes. She asks him some piece of trivia that was on her mind. He hands her the paper.
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May 8, 2018 09:15
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So I started. so far there's a weird kid who has dreams and some old lady made him put his hand in a box. His mum banged the head of the family or something and dad's not around much.Then there was another space family with a big fat man who doesn't like the new family coming in and is plotting. There seems to be people called mentants who may or may not be robots, or use their brains differently. No sex yet
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May 8, 2018 10:39
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Murray Mantoinette posted:That's very much the consensus throughout this thread, but even if they're not, the whole point of the Scattering was an infinite plethora of possibilities so, as has been said a ton of times in this thread, it's stupid and lazy to think it was Lord Cybertrex rather than some entirely new threat rising out of the crucible of human expansion and innovation into a limitless universe come back to prey on the boring static Old Empire. Not to mention the extreme unlikelihood of Frank Herbert sitting down and thinking "For this next book I should probably do away with my universe's defining characteristic." e: lol quote:SR: Have you read Brian Herbert's biography of Frank, DREAMER OF DUNE ? FeculentWizardTits fucked around with this message at 11:49 on May 8, 2018 |
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May 8, 2018 11:44
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henpod posted:So I started. so far there's a weird kid who has dreams and some old lady made him put his hand in a box. His mum banged the head of the family or something and dad's not around much.Then there was another space family with a big fat man who doesn't like the new family coming in and is plotting. There seems to be people called mentants who may or may not be robots, or use their brains differently. No sex yet yup sounds like dune
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May 8, 2018 12:07
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Communist Walrus posted:Not to mention the extreme unlikelihood of Frank Herbert sitting down and thinking "For this next book I should probably do away with my universe's defining characteristic." Yeah that interviewee had more wit and subtlety in just that tiny 90s webring-style interview than KJA could aspire to in his life.
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May 8, 2018 12:48
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I love how in that summary of the Butlerian Jihad how forced the notion of Jihad is just crammed in there. "The robots all became evil and started killing people, so the people all rose up in a kind of.. jihad... to stop them." I'm curious if there any record of what Stanislaw Lem thought of Frank Herbert. He didn't seem overly fond of much american sci-fi and thought it was largely written to make money rather than to challenge ideas and the like, so I'd be curious if he even made mention of Dune since it's obvious got a lot more going for it than the average sci fi book about LORD CYBERTREX 8000 or what have you.
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May 8, 2018 12:57
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Mentats are basically people who have learned how to be rainmen through training, and are used to perform really accurate inductive reasoning. Cultivated and weaponized autism.
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May 8, 2018 13:09
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Zeniel posted:I'm curious if there any record of what Stanislaw Lem thought of Frank Herbert. He didn't seem overly fond of much american sci-fi and thought it was largely written to make money rather than to challenge ideas and the like, so I'd be curious if he even made mention of Dune since it's obvious got a lot more going for it than the average sci fi book about LORD CYBERTREX 8000 or what have you.
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May 8, 2018 13:33
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I once asked someone on here to make this for use on the "official" dune forums. They were run by Byron Herbert, and he loved to talk about how his father found the super secret outline of the future of the Dune universe. FART
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May 8, 2018 13:36
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Zeniel posted:I'm curious if there any record of what Stanislaw Lem thought of Frank Herbert. He didn't seem overly fond of much american sci-fi and thought it was largely written to make money rather than to challenge ideas and the like, so I'd be curious if he even made mention of Dune since it's obvious got a lot more going for it than the average sci fi book about LORD CYBERTREX 8000 or what have you. As stated above, there doesn't seem to be record of any, but let's look at it this way, Lem's main body of work focused on man's inability to truly or meaningfully contact alien life (Fiasco, HMV, Eden, Solaris), whereas Dune is about a group of humans who've managed to integrate themselves deeply into the alien ecology of a strange planet. Now, what Stanislaw might've thought about the quality of world-building is a separate question I suppose, but the themes of the two men seem to clash heavily. He might've also found the heavy focus on military stuff off-putting 
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May 8, 2018 16:29
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Dune... desert planet
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May 8, 2018 16:46
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Rappaport posted:As stated above, there doesn't seem to be record of any, but let's look at it this way, Lem's main body of work focused on man's inability to truly or meaningfully contact alien life (Fiasco, HMV, Eden, Solaris), whereas Dune is about a group of humans who've managed to integrate themselves deeply into the alien ecology of a strange planet. Now, what Stanislaw might've thought about the quality of world-building is a separate question I suppose, but the themes of the two men seem to clash heavily. He might've also found the heavy focus on military stuff off-putting The alien life in Dune is not intelligent, though. A better comparison might be to The Invincible, where the protagonist sort of adapts at the end, at least enough to survive.
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May 8, 2018 16:57
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I forget, where did the Fish Speakers get their name from? Because with no context, that’s a really dumb name.
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May 8, 2018 16:59
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I've been unable to shake the notion that it's a gay joke but i have no evidence
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May 8, 2018 17:06
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Zopotantor posted:The alien life in Dune is not intelligent, though. A better comparison might be to The Invincible, where the protagonist sort of adapts at the end, at least enough to survive. The cloud takes pity, or sympathy, on Rohan at the end, but at the same time Rohan comes to the realization that not every place everywhere is meant for man. The discussion the previous night between the scientists about destroying the necrosphere is exactly the kind of technocratic, military-minded hubris Lem set out to critique, whereas Rohan's conclusions are quite different. (spoilers about the Invincible) That said, Leto literally becomes half-worm, so 
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May 8, 2018 17:12
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I forget, where did the Fish Speakers get their name from? Because with no context, that’s a really dumb name. It's explained in God Emperor, something like 'early priestesses spoke to fish in their dreams'. I don't loving know, it seemed weird to me too.
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May 8, 2018 17:15
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