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What in the actual gently caress have you ever talked to a single former Amazon tech employee? If you ever do, you won't get platitudes.
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May 10, 2018 22:53
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shrike82 posted:Tech industry employees are liberal the same way finance industry employees are liberal - they tend to skew Dem versus middle America but mostly due to the skew in education backgrounds and being situated in urban bubbles. Have you ever even entertained the thought that people you hate or jobs you dislike can have the same political views as you? That the world was not convenient enough that you get to split the world neatly into "jobs I approve of = everyone is secret left wing" / "professions I disapprove of = everyone is actually secret right wing". Data shows: tech industry is vastly more left wing than virtually any other industry, data shows that, donations and voting records show that, everything that exists shows that, you can't just go "tech is bad and right wing is bad so tech is right wing" or whatever. It doesn't work that way.
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May 10, 2018 23:02
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a foolish pianist posted:It doesn't lean fiscally conservative. OOCC posted actual data. he posted an article about tech ceos that disagreed with his underlying statement and an article about how tech company workers donated more to bernie than hillary, which you would expect given the demographics of tech companies just to bring you back, since we're now to "are the employees of tech companies more left-leaning than the average american" the answer, much like the ceo question, is going to be "yes in some ways, and no in others" this is where we started: Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like literally every actual poll or study or survey shows tech companies as some of the most left leaning businesses that exist anywhere on earth or at least this is where I jumped in to call him out on this dumb poo poo. because this isn't about employees, this is about "businesses" and the drives, goals and aims of those businesses are driven by the leadership, not the employees. tech companies are not "some of the most left leaning businesses that exist anywhere on earth" that's a uniquely american phenomenon and not even true here tech companies literally don't even have a union and I'd love to see someone post something telling me most tech employees actually do want to unionize. 90s Rememberer fucked around with this message at 23:07 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 23:04
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I work in the tech industry so I think I have a better sense of it than you - someone who literally cosplays as a techno-utopian.
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May 10, 2018 23:05
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also screeching over and over again "data shows!" after you've posted two newspaper articles is really somethingOwlofcreamcheese posted:Surgeons are very good. They are also overwhelmingly republicans. For whatever weird quirk of history reason surgeons are very right wing. You can't wrestle your way out of that with some 'surgery = good so they must be left wing". Some bad people have good jobs and some good people have bad jobs and we all know technology is evil and needs to be destroyed but somehow in the same way life saving surgeons are right wing it turns out the people making technology are actually overwhelmingly politically good and sometimes the world doesn't make hating things simple! the fact that he's been reduced to posting irrelevant paragraphs like this trash should clue you in to how wrong he knows he is
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May 10, 2018 23:09
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Surgeons are very good. They are also overwhelmingly republicans. For whatever weird quirk of history reason surgeons are very right wing. You can't wrestle your way out of that with some 'surgery = good so they must be left wing". Some bad people have good jobs and some good people have bad jobs and we all know technology is evil and needs to be destroyed but somehow in the same way life saving surgeons are right wing it turns out the people making technology are actually overwhelmingly politically good and sometimes the world doesn't make hating things simple!
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May 10, 2018 23:09
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self unaware posted:also screeching over and over again "data shows!" after you've posted two newspaper articles is really something okay, present your data that says the opposite. You have only presented your gut feeling on how you say it is. Destroy my argument by posting the easy to find "tech ceos are all actually right wing! they all lied on all other surveys and voted bad to trick us!" secret study.
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May 10, 2018 23:11
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:okay, present your data that says the opposite. You have only presented your gut feeling on how you say it is. Destroy my argument by posting the easy to find "tech ceos are all actually right wing! they all lied on all other surveys and voted bad to trick us!" secret study. the onus is on you to prove "tech companies are some of the most left leaning on earth" I suggest you get started. you can start by defining what you mean by left leaning. reminder that if you're going to use a global context your should probably appreciate that context when giving your answer 90s Rememberer fucked around with this message at 23:13 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 23:11
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You're the one claiming with much less data than OOCC has provided that tech workers are secret republican light or secret libertarians. Have you ever worked in a tech startup?
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May 10, 2018 23:13
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a foolish pianist posted:You're the one claiming with much less data than OOCC has provided that tech workers are secret republican light or secret libertarians. lol that you think it's a secret most american liberals are libertarians and don't know it so i mean in that way it is a secret
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May 10, 2018 23:14
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self unaware posted:lol that you think it's a secret It's not a secret because it's not real. Seriously, post some data that contradicts what's already in the thread. When I was at a Detroit-area startup, I worked with about 5x as many strong socialists as republicans or libertarians. self unaware posted:most american liberals are libertarians and don't know it so i mean in that way it is a secret Hottest fuckin take right here.
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May 10, 2018 23:15
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self unaware posted:the onus is on you to prove "tech companies are some of the most left leaning on earth" I suggest you get started. you can start by defining what you mean by left leaning. reminder that if you're going to use a global context your should probably appreciate that context when giving your answer "96 percent of tech entrepreneurs support same-sex marriage, 79 percent view abortion as a matter of personal choice, 82 percent favor gun control, and 67 percent oppose the death penalty. 83 percent support higher taxes on people making $1 million or more per year (76 percent support higher taxes on those making at least $250,000), while 59 percent support increasing spending on federal programs for the poor; only 6 percent support cutting them. And 82 percent say they support universal healthcare even if it requires raising taxes."
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May 10, 2018 23:16
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a foolish pianist posted:It's not a secret because it's not real. Seriously, post some data that contradicts what's already in the thread. contradicts what? OOCC's tech ceo defense posted:82 percent of tech entrepreneurs think it’s too difficult to fire workers and want the government to make it easier to do so, very similar to the views expressed by Republican donors and voters. 74 percent want labor unions’ influence to decrease (Democratic donors, despite their economic status, are by contrast the most pro-union group surveyed). 70 percent oppose regulating Uber-like taxi companies, while most Democratic citizens and donors disagree. again, you can take a paragraph about gay marriage support amongst tech ceos and ride that to "tech companies the most left leaning on earth" but back in here in reality i'll be asking you to show your work
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May 10, 2018 23:17
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self unaware posted:contradicts what?
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May 10, 2018 23:18
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a foolish pianist posted:I honestly can't tell whether you think this post is anything but a self-own. i'm really sorry that you work in tech and you take offense to the fact that the industry and the companies that comprise it are a force for right wing reactionary capitalism to swallow the world whole in the quest of creating the world's first quadrillionaire but yes, not all tech workers are horrible pieces of garbage and im sure you and your commie programmer friends are really sticking it to the man by helping your boss extract as much wealth as he can 90s Rememberer fucked around with this message at 23:21 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 23:19
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self unaware posted:i'm really sorry that you work in tech and you take offense to the fact that the industry and the companies that comprise it are a force for right wing reactionary capitalism to swallow the world whole in the quest of creating the world's first quadrillionaire Ah yes, support for universal healthcare, that proud standard born by the libertarian captains of industry.
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May 10, 2018 23:22
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a foolish pianist posted:Ah yes, support for universal healthcare, that proud standard born by the libertarian captains of industry. lol that thinking if you set out to absolutely crush labor unions but support "universal healthcare" (spoiler alert, it's not single payer) you're somehow left-leaning sinclair was right
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May 10, 2018 23:23
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e: never mind, this argument is poo poo.
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May 10, 2018 23:26
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Everyone is a libertarian, except me, the one true leftist
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May 10, 2018 23:27
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self unaware posted:
Okay, lets assume that you personally have found true enlightenment and are the one true leftist and only people that share your exact set of morals are true leftists. Even restricting it that way, even that, your very special and totally unique correct and right and pure leftist opinion that only 73 people on earth have, you are going to find more of those 73 people owning web development companies and programming java while posting "guillotines LOLLOLOLOLOLO:L" during breaks at work then you are going to find those 73 true leftists in other industries. No matter how dumb you restrict down the definition you are still going to find it more in SF and seattle than in wyoming and more in people that went college (or had extensive informal education opportunities) and read karl marx or whatever. Whatever super dumb and mundane series of events lead you to the one true and correct leftism is not unique and is repeated in others, and odds are those others are way more likely to own a company that prints QR codes on dogs or whatever than works in plumbing or something.
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May 10, 2018 23:27
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i don't know how to tell you any more clearly that your polls do not show that "tech companies are the most left leaning on earth" i don't know why you keep posting about polls of tech ceo's like it's relevant to the discussion other than to demonstrate that yes, the tech industry has a massive problem with the labor movement from the top to the bottom you can't really oppose organized labor and unionization and be the most left leaning company on the planet. the math just doesnt work out grocery stores in the us, for example, are more left leaning than tech companies
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May 10, 2018 23:31
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self unaware posted:support "universal healthcare" (spoiler alert, it's not single payer) Where did you get this hint. You keep posting things as fact without posting any actual facts. Like if you have some study or something link to it. You seem to be arguing entirely from "I made this up, so it's true" with absolutely zero data. Like you can say my data is bad or whatever, and then you can post better data, but you literally are just declaring things like a king or something and thinking that makes them true.
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May 10, 2018 23:32
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self unaware posted:
Because you declare it to be so? Because of some data you have but are hiding from us?
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May 10, 2018 23:34
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Because you declare it to be so? Because of some data you have but are hiding from us? because the employees are unionized and many of them are co-ops you're just going to keep hooting about how "but they are socially liberal!" like that isn't what I've been telling you the whole drat time
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May 10, 2018 23:36
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self unaware posted:because the employees are unionized and many of them are co-ops The largest grocery store chain in the US is walmart. The most left wing and union friendly company in the world!
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May 10, 2018 23:41
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The largest grocery store chain in the US is walmart. The most left wing and union friendly company in the world! yes and if the largest tech company had a vibrant union and wasn't generating billions for the .01% this might mean tech was more left-leaning, but in this case, tech has literally nothing, at least some grocery stores are unionized but those lefty tech companies sure do seem to be good at "disrupting" companies with unionized employees and leaving behind a "gig" for a "contractor" to do. "but the programmers making $160k/yr says he likes gay marriage and is ok with his taxes going up" 90s Rememberer fucked around with this message at 23:46 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 23:43
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I'm glad we've determined that being in a union is the one true mark of a leftist.
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May 10, 2018 23:52
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I'm hesitant to jump in the fray here, but I think the point is not individual politics, but the politics of the industry as a whole - most tech companies are about privatization and are anti-regulation. Those are not good things for workers (or customers). It doesn't matter what the individual politics are. We aren't talking about the personal beliefs of hordes of tech support workers. It's the direction of the industry as a whole that matters.
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May 10, 2018 23:55
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If you are going to categorize political thought there is a concept of the left neo-liberal, with the "left" referring both to a possible position on non-economic left positions (minority group representation, environmentalism etc.) and technocratic redistribution (e.g. high taxes and universal healthcare). The neo-liberal part means that they are still very much capitalist and the enemy is incorrect restraint of the capitalist system, specifically the "political" intrusion into the economic sector. Each person is an atomic actor and class based approaches to the world (e.g. unions) are wrong, either unnecessary (in the more left form of neo-liberalism) or harmful. If your model of left-right is that the old debates are over and capitalism won (basically the left neo-liberal position itself) , then the left-neoliberal is the left wing. If your model is that the left position is the empowerment of the working class against the atomising power of the capitalists then the left-neoliberal is at best centrist. The concept of "social and fiscal" to describe political thought doesn't really describe one important area, non-fiscal imposition in the economic sector (separate to the social). If historically those who are "fiscally liberal" in the American sense (tax and redistribution) are also non-fiscal "liberal" then lumping it into the fiscal part makes sense. However it falls apart when there is enough support for anti-union and anti-regulation while also being "fiscally" liberal. Are tech workers generally left neo-liberals? This seems to fit the evidence.
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May 11, 2018 00:03
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It is pretty hard to be anti-union and call yourself a leftist or even on the left. Certainly people do, but it strains credulity.
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May 11, 2018 00:24
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[img-pig-poo poo-on-own-balls]
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May 11, 2018 00:52
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The funny thing is that IT workers and software developers are already very close to the absolute top of highest average salaries and the idea that when they unionize and grab the top spot that that will be the catalyst for "TRUE LEFTISTS" to call them allies instead of just declaring them rich class traders or something that are in a right wing union that is secretly more right wing than not being in a union.
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May 11, 2018 01:06
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Tech bros are young and urban (as opposed to rural). This skews them towards reasonable modern opinions, like gay marriage. They are also white and very very rich, which makes them scum.
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May 11, 2018 01:14
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And that's not to say their socially left positions count for nothing, either! (Though I would be extremely curious to see their sentiments about the police). Being anti-bigotry is genuinely important, and certainly not anywhere close to a given for the average voter. But just like how alot of fledgling leftists can be astoundingly naive about the ability for class struggle to meaningfully address racism and sexism, if your ideology is mostly concerned about a variety of races and sexualities in your gated communities or in your company's c-level suite, at best you could say that's precious, and at worse, well, 
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May 11, 2018 02:20
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Unoriginal Name posted:Tech bros are young and urban (as opposed to rural). This skews them towards reasonable modern opinions, like gay marriage.
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May 11, 2018 02:26
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cheese posted:Fiscally conservative, socially liberal. The new Democratic party base. I'm a fiscally conservative socially liberal bay area engineer. I'm fiscally conservative because I believe a generous social welfare state should be funded by heavy taxes on high earners and wealthy people.
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May 11, 2018 02:34
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Spazzle posted:I'm a fiscally conservative socially liberal bay area engineer. I'm fiscally conservative because I believe a generous social welfare state should be funded by heavy taxes on high earners and wealthy people. These days fiscally conservative means "all taxes are inherently bad and rich people are inherently good so give rich people all the money they want lol gently caress the poor."
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May 11, 2018 02:41
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In conclusion, tech bros are a land of contrast.
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May 11, 2018 03:00
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The techlord position on poors is less “kill em all” and more “give them basic income so there’s no downside to me firing thousands of people whenever I feel like restructuring my company to disrupt something new” (basic income makes it less catastrophic for employees to get fired and can be used to make firing someone easier and so is acceptable, unions make it harder to fire people in the first place and are therefore the enemy).
suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 06:43 on May 11, 2018 |
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May 11, 2018 06:41
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Mocking Americans is cool and all but it stops being funny when they start spreading and bringing their labor violations and socially regressive baggage with them.
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May 11, 2018 07:55
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