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Monaghan posted:Seed and especially destiny is kinda hilarious in that it kind of undercuts it's own message by saying that people should strive to understand one another, people aren't so different, blah blah blah, At the same time, every single member of the Alliance, other than the AA Crew and maybe one general are complete psychopaths who are ecstatic at the thought of committing genocide. ImpAtom posted:The frustrating thing about SEED is that in SEED it's really clear that Coordinators are not supposed to be the be-all/end-all of civilization and the idea that they're suffering from serious genetic flaws and are an evolutionary dead end is pretty critical to the plot. It's an interesting thing that comes up in a single significant point in Destiny (Durandal and Talia's relationship failing because they can't have kids and Coordinators are already running into breeding problems) which... never gets addressed. This is gonna sound crazy, but Seed kinda reminds me of World of Warcraft. It's that thing where the creators have a lot of neat ideas to fill out the background, but the main throughline is barely enough to string together a series of fights. In WoW that happens because it's written by committee, I dunno how Seed got made.
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May 11, 2018 00:25
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Kanos posted:Durandal and Talia's subplot was indeed meant to introduce and explore the idea that maaaaaybe coordinators aren't perfect or sustainable, but pretty much nothing else ever addresses or engages with that idea, and Durandal's Destiny Plan pretty much hinges on the idea of coordinators being a thing that can be kept going indefinitely and he's never portrayed as stupid or short-sighted. No, the "coordinators are suffering from sterility" thing is introduced in SEED, it gets brought up at least as early as Athrun's initial return visit to PLANT. It comes up multiple times in the original show (and it's really clear from writing and from side material that the original intended outcome was "Coordinator sterility is solved by interbreeding with naturals' and that was basically the entire point of the Athrun and Cagalli/Dearka and Millaria plotlines) and then Destiny waves its hand at it again and then drops it.
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May 11, 2018 00:58
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Buddy, her first boyfriend may have died, but that doesn't make her malaria.
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May 11, 2018 01:24
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ImpAtom posted:No, the "coordinators are suffering from sterility" thing is introduced in SEED, it gets brought up at least as early as Athrun's initial return visit to PLANT. It comes up multiple times in the original show (and it's really clear from writing and from side material that the original intended outcome was "Coordinator sterility is solved by interbreeding with naturals' and that was basically the entire point of the Athrun and Cagalli/Dearka and Millaria plotlines) and then Destiny waves its hand at it again and then drops it. It says something that I've watched SEED in full three times and partially a fourth time and I don't remember that at all, though I believe you that it is mentioned. It also probably says something about the show's commitment to that idea when both of those natural/coordinator relationships implode spectacularly.
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May 11, 2018 01:26
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Kanos posted:It says something that I've watched SEED in full three times and partially a fourth time and I don't remember that at all, though I believe you that it is mentioned. Yeah, the fact that Destiny destroys both the Natural/Coordinator relationships is... really creepy and weird. Hell, Andy and Ramias had more potential than frigging bringing Mu back.
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May 11, 2018 01:37
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, the fact that Destiny destroys both the Natural/Coordinator relationships is... really creepy and weird. Hell, Andy and Ramias had more potential than frigging bringing Mu back. It does give a really uncomfortable subtext of "yeah maybe it isn't actually possible for these two human species to coexist long-term" when set against the constant natural-coordinator warfare, doesn't it?
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May 11, 2018 01:43
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Not as gently caress you as Eureka AO at least
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May 11, 2018 03:36
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Tae posted:Not as gently caress you as Eureka AO at least Char Aznable has plots that are less gently caress you than Eureka 7 AO though.
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May 11, 2018 03:49
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Kanos posted:The Natural/Coordinator tension in SEED is actually pretty interesting. The real world already struggles enormously and endlessly with racial tension when the primary differences between races are superficial things like skin color, height, or facial structure. I can't imagine how venomous racial tensions would become if there was a difference in physical capability between racial groups as pronounced as the natural/coordinator divide. You know, thinking about it, there's some pretty good contrast if a Super Robot Wars had IBO and SEED at the same time. Kira's the Ultimate Coordinator, born better. He's successful as a mobile suit pilot because of the same edges that he has everywhere else. Meanwhile, Tekkadan's a bunch of slaves and child soldiers who only achieved what they did because they didn't have any other options. Mikazuki is successful as a mobile suit pilot because he burned up everything else he could have been in exchange. You want conflict among protagonist factions, that's lush ground for it right there.
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May 11, 2018 04:35
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Tae posted:Not as gently caress you as Eureka AO at least If I didn't know better about how anime production works I would honestly be certain that AO was rewritten every week out of spite for people guessing the writers lovely twists in advance
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May 11, 2018 04:38
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I just wanted them to find the damned space whales.
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May 11, 2018 04:57
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:If I didn't know better about how anime production works I would honestly be certain that AO was rewritten every week out of spite for people guessing the writers lovely twists in advance it was kind of inevitable when each retelling of the original E7 was just shitter and darker manga: everyone fails the end movie: a parallel world where everything is lovely for no reason Yinlock fucked around with this message at 05:07 on May 11, 2018 |
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May 11, 2018 05:05
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You know, we keep getting darker and grittier sequels and spinoffs to relatively happy shows. I want a brighter and happier spinoff to a dark show that isn't just 'Evangelion, but it's a harem anime'.
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May 11, 2018 07:02
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Hellioning posted:You know, we keep getting darker and grittier sequels and spinoffs to relatively happy shows. IBO season three is Gaelio and Julieta preparing for their wedding while Akatsuki gets ready for his first day of school. Only six children die.
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May 11, 2018 07:30
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Hellioning posted:You know, we keep getting darker and grittier sequels and spinoffs to relatively happy shows. I've got two words for you. One is Zeta. The other is... also Zeta.
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May 11, 2018 07:59
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Hellioning posted:You know, we keep getting darker and grittier sequels and spinoffs to relatively happy shows. Seed isn't super dark but the first astray manga is basically a fun romp in seed world.
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May 11, 2018 08:01
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chiasaur11 posted:I've got two words for you. I appreciate the abrupt shift in Yazan, too.
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May 11, 2018 08:14
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It's really real.
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May 11, 2018 08:37
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TBH, ZZ is also kind of pessimistic. Its protagonists just have a slower, gentler descent into hell.
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May 11, 2018 10:09
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Hellioning posted:You know, we keep getting darker and grittier sequels and spinoffs to relatively happy shows. Try Rahxephon. It's very, very clearly inspired by Eva but goes very differently because the protagonist is a very different person than Shinji. It's not what I would call brighter and happier in the slightest, but it's different. Darth Walrus posted:TBH, ZZ is also kind of pessimistic. Its protagonists just have a slower, gentler descent into hell. Kind of might be underselling it. By the end of the show even someone as upbeat and optimistic as Judau is so disgusted by the outcome of the war that he punches Bright in the face and peaces out of the Earth Sphere. The only happiness at the end of ZZ is that most of the main cast survives, and even then you've got multiple dead children on the Argama's casualty list. I guess you could call it a better outcome than the end of Zeta.
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May 11, 2018 10:19
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Darth Walrus posted:TBH, ZZ is also kind of pessimistic. Its protagonists just have a slower, gentler descent into hell. There's a reason I made sure the post said "brighter and happier" instead of "bright and happy" before bringing up a sign of the zeta. The Universal Century is a lovely, lovely place.
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May 11, 2018 11:49
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Darth Walrus posted:TBH, ZZ is also kind of pessimistic. Its protagonists just have a slower, gentler descent into hell. Stupid adults! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SymeWdSey-A
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May 11, 2018 13:36
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Spelling Mitsake posted:I just wanted them to find the damned space whales. Plot Twist: Macross 7 is in continuity with SEED.
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May 11, 2018 16:05
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All anime should be in continuity with Macross 7.
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May 11, 2018 16:07
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I never played the previous Breakers, is painting parts new? https://gematsu.com/2018/05/new-gundam-breaker-setup-mode-gameplay
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May 11, 2018 16:13
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Tae posted:I never played the previous Breakers, is painting parts new? No, that's definitely in 3. Looks like the exact same interface, too.
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May 11, 2018 16:57
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Kanos posted:It says something that I've watched SEED in full three times and partially a fourth time and I don't remember that at all, though I believe you that it is mentioned. This has been a p explicit thread they've touched on in the first half setting up the need for coordinator/naturals relationships in the 2nd half. And yeah another real nasty mark against Destiny for trashing that entirely. It's been so long since I watched Rahxephon but I recollect it being some quality stuff for the genre.
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May 11, 2018 17:09
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The only good part about RahXephon is the OST tbh. The rest of it is bland as hell at best, and pretty bad at worst.
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May 11, 2018 17:17
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Raxivace posted:The only good part about RahXephon is the OST tbh. The rest of it is bland as hell at best, and pretty bad at worst. I dunno, it was pretty visually impressive. For an early digipaint anime, anyway.
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May 11, 2018 17:26
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Raxivace posted:The only good part about RahXephon is the OST tbh. The rest of it is bland as hell at best, and pretty bad at worst. I watched this for the first time about a month ago and agree, not very compelling or thematically interesting. But I also don't like Evangelion much, so this whole take on the genre may not be for me.
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May 11, 2018 17:38
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The Notorious ZSB posted:This has been a p explicit thread they've touched on in the first half setting up the need for coordinator/naturals relationships in the 2nd half. And yeah another real nasty mark against Destiny for trashing that entirely. I never really bought the "later generation coordinators are going sterile so they need to interbreed with naturals" thing as very sensical. You're working with an extremely broad gene pool in the PLANTs(over 100 space colonies!) and you have sufficient mastery over genetic manipulation that you can totally safely identify, select for, and enhance specific traits in an embryo - and this science is also advanced enough that the bleeding edge of it can create a monstrous ubermensch like Kira - and you're telling me that you can't figure out genetic therapies to repair and maintain fertility rates? Like they aren't just slightly modifying an embryo, they're permanently rewriting DNA to enhance physical and mental attributes to the point where coordinator enhancements can be inherited even if the second generation doesn't go through the therapy and they're doing it without the would-be coordinator becoming a cancer bag. That's some crazy sci-fi poo poo. Kanos fucked around with this message at 17:59 on May 11, 2018 |
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May 11, 2018 17:56
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Genetic traits aren't plug-and-play, even to that degree of scientific control, and especially when you throw in good old random chance for the 2nd/3rd-genners. They also keep shooting for specific traits for every coordinator so even if they aren't all visibly-identical it means things are gonna get a bit... cousin-y.
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May 11, 2018 18:02
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The thematic reason for Coordinators not being able to breed with each other is more important than any fake science reason anyways.
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May 11, 2018 18:11
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Genetic traits aren't plug-and-play, even to that degree of scientific control, and especially when you throw in good old random chance for the 2nd/3rd-genners. Even if the genetic science that can create something like Kira Yamato and fundamentally alter the genetic structure of millions of people safely can somehow not fix this single flaw, sterility is also something that wouldn't be solved by interbreeding once it already happened, though. Like if your third gen coordinators are sterile they're not going to be able to breed period, naturals or no. Not all coordinators select for the same traits. Lacus is a good example; Sai openly questions if she sings well because she was genetically engineered to do so, and she very clearly doesn't share the absurd piloting talent of somebody like Athrun or Shinn. Raxivace posted:The thematic reason for Coordinators not being able to breed with each other is more important than any fake science reason anyways. Unfortunately, the show itself wasn't really interested in those thematic reasons past a certain point.
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May 11, 2018 18:33
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One of my big problems with Coordinators in Gundam is that when they were revamping the original Gundam they forgot "spacenoid" and "newtype" are not interchangeable terms. There's lots of talk from Zeon about how Spacenoids are the master race and the successors to humanity and adapted to life in space, but the important and obvious thing is that it's all just so much noise. Spacenoids are not better than earthbound humans, this could not be more explicit. The joke to this is that Newtypes do exist, that there are people who actually can understand each and are well adapted for life in space, but the punchline is that ultimately they aren't important. Newtypes may be "Superior", but they're rare and often unaware of being newtypes and ultimately they don't actually matter because the change they promised by their existence never emerges from their existence. Then you get Gundam SEED where Coordinator means both "Spacenoid" and "Newtype" at once. The Coordinators ARE superior to terrestrial humanity, it's right there in their genes. They're stronger, smarter, healthier, and all-around better and SEED and DESTINY have real trouble realizing this or parcelling out what it means. Earth v Space looks much different when Space people are explicitly superhuman, but Earth v Space has barely budged between Gundam 79 and Gundam SEED and that's a failure of imagination and of setting. In SEED people of Earth hate the Coordinators for reasons that are almost always framed as "You're just jealous", but SEED/DESTINY never quite realizes that actually "You're just jealous" could actually be a LEGITIMATE reason. Shouldn't the people of Earth have reason to be leery of the Coordinators and of the strife inevitable by creating a genetic caste system? Especially when the Coordinators show absolutely no regard for the people on the ground? The key thing that newtypes are generally depicted as having that Coordinators aren't is some form of expanded empathic awareness. Newtypes have consistently been shown as being able to sense emotions and read intents. That empathy doesn't stop evil or sociopathic or nihilistic newtypes from existing, but the whole reason people like Char dreamed of having a large newtype population was so they could have some Gundam 00 epilogue style understanding to put an end to war. There's no similar pipe dream in SEED. ZAFT with its N-Jammer attack commits an atrocity worse than the Bloody Valentine attack in retaliation against the naturals, and ZAFT has no problems immediately leaping back into the war two years later with the weapons they've been gleefully building in the meantime. Coordinators are inherently better at most things than Naturals, but neither side has inherently better PEOPLE than the other. That and so much more deserved examining. I am the three millionth Gundam fan to this out, but it probably still bears repeating that one of SEED's most egregious failures came from the misuse of the setting. The idea of having Coordinators is barely explored at all in the entire run of the series, and that's a serious problem because that's the most notable new idea that SEED brought to the table. SEED is far less smart than it needed to be and it suffers a lot for it.
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May 11, 2018 22:22
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Newtypes and Coordinators both exist in SEED and one is not the same as the other, just like how Spacenoids and Newtypes both exist and are not by default the same thing. Rau, Mwu, Rey, and Kira are honest to god newtypes; the show is coy about this by referring to it as "enhanced spatial awareness", but they have newtype flashes, they can sense each others' presence, they are affected by the emotions of others, and they occasionally have mind meld moments with each other. It's the reason why Mwu can be such a good pilot despite being a natural and why he's one of the first naturals to pick up mobile suit piloting once the OS is rewritten.
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May 11, 2018 22:48
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Omnicrom posted:One of my big problems with Coordinators in Gundam is that when they were revamping the original Gundam they forgot "spacenoid" and "newtype" are not interchangeable terms. There's lots of talk from Zeon about how Spacenoids are the master race and the successors to humanity and adapted to life in space, but the important and obvious thing is that it's all just so much noise. Spacenoids are not better than earthbound humans, this could not be more explicit. The joke to this is that Newtypes do exist, that there are people who actually can understand each and are well adapted for life in space, but the punchline is that ultimately they aren't important. Newtypes may be "Superior", but they're rare and often unaware of being newtypes and ultimately they don't actually matter because the change they promised by their existence never emerges from their existence. SEED also has the SEED factor be a Newtype analogue and Newtypes being a Newtype analogue, but then it makes those genetic too, and they basically exist to let Kira and sometimes Lacus be even more special.
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May 11, 2018 22:52
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Omnicrom posted:In SEED people of Earth hate the Coordinators for reasons that are almost always framed as "You're just jealous", but SEED/DESTINY never quite realizes that actually "You're just jealous" could actually be a LEGITIMATE reason. Shouldn't the people of Earth have reason to be leery of the Coordinators and of the strife inevitable by creating a genetic caste system? Especially when the Coordinators show absolutely no regard for the people on the ground? ...There's no similar pipe dream in SEED. ZAFT with its N-Jammer attack commits an atrocity worse than the Bloody Valentine attack in retaliation against the naturals, and ZAFT has no problems immediately leaping back into the war two years later with the weapons they've been gleefully building in the meantime. Coordinators are inherently better at most things than Naturals, but neither side has inherently better PEOPLE than the other. That and so much more deserved examining. SEED is also kind of sad because the person they let actually bring up this fact is Rau which, even if he's right, is overshadowed by the fact that they make him so transparently bad/villainous at that moment. He's so cartoonishly villainous while he's delivering this via monologue that he even acknowledges that he should kill them instead but won't because goddamn, dude wants to monologue. Not that I'm complaining about the monologue per se (I enjoy that Mwu and Kira are not so much in danger of being shot by Rau, but instead are in much more danger of being consumed by Rau as he devours every morsel of the scene during said monologue). It's just emblematic of SEED's overall problem of erring on the side of telling rather than showing that the differences between Naturals and Coordinators are legitimate causes for strife. What SEED shows instead is just over-the-top EVIL villainy on the part of Blue Cosmos/Patrick Zala and completely misses the boat in terms of nuance. Especially in terms of Blue Cosmos/Azrael.
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May 11, 2018 23:28
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I don't think SEED not being nuanced is a mistake, I think it's clearly by design. The entire show is written in an extremely direct and melodramatic manner, and I don't think it ever pretends to be interested in too many shades of gray. The closest it ever gets are characters like Natarle, and Natarle is less a shade of gray and more a character who switches from good to bad and back. I would even say that this directness is a huge reason for SEED's wide appeal compared to later, muddier shows.
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May 11, 2018 23:47
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Unlike what the show wants you to feel, I think that ORB got everything it deserved
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May 12, 2018 00:36
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