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I seem to recall Finns making a particular decision on nationality about 100 years ago.
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May 11, 2018 18:00
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:arent the sami also uralic yup, and finno-ugric to boot
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May 11, 2018 18:02
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I seem to recall Finns making a particular decision on nationality about 100 years ago. and they did. there were mutually unintelligible forms of finnish around before finns decided they were a nation now, although people ruling finland as a single ducal entity for half a millenia did do half the work for us. although, most if not all the early finnish nationalists were native swedish speakers, along with the rest of the ruling class. ie pacius, who composed half of his career in swedish and switched to finnish after deciding that was a thing to do. his swedish work was better
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May 11, 2018 18:08
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:arent the sami also uralic They're the Mr. Pibb of lost Mongolians
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May 11, 2018 18:42
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hungarians are magyars the original huns and their language is related to estonian and finnish fins are huns
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May 11, 2018 18:44
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R. Guyovich posted:there's a difference between being a motor and being the motor. whites can be incorporated into the ranks of any revolutionary movement but it's almost certain they'll be a minority, due to all the preexisting biases and allegiances sakai lays out. this is an uncomfortable reality for the barely embryonic us left, who understand there is a diversity problem in their orgs but envisions the solution as more minority members with relatively unchanged leadership. Can you elaborate on this bit?
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May 11, 2018 20:31
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GunnerJ posted:Can you elaborate on this bit? Leftist orgs recognize they have a diversity problem and try to recruit poc but the leadership for many orgs remains overwhelmingly white
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May 11, 2018 21:37
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Guess it's really the "envisions" part I'm not clear on.
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May 11, 2018 21:43
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GunnerJ posted:Guess it's really the "envisions" part I'm not clear on. the white leaders in charge right now aren't envisioning a world where they get replaced by non-white leaders, they're imagining themselves leading a more diverse org
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May 11, 2018 22:05
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Okay, what are we basing this on? Like I'm not outright antagonistic to the possibility but I don't know where this vision is laid out.
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May 11, 2018 22:17
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From settlers:quote:This point marks a historic change. Never again would white labor be anti-Amerikan and anti-capitalist. Although it would organize itself millions strong into giant unions and wage militant economic campaigns, white labor from that time on would be branded by its servile patriotism to the U.S. Empire. As confused as the I.W.W. might have been about revolution, its contempt for U.S. national chauvinism was genuine and healthy. It was only natural for an organization so strongly based on immigrant labor — many of whose best organizers were not U.S. Citizens and who often spoke little or no English — to feel no sympathy for the U.S. Empire. It was a tragedy that this strength was overturned, that this socialist possibility faded into a reinforcement for settlerism. And yet the contradiction between the reality of exploitation in the factories and the privileges of settlerism still remained. The immigrant masses could not be both settler and proletarian. This was the historic challenge of the CIO and New Deal. quote:It was this alone that drew so many Europeans to colonial North Amerika: the dream in the settler mind of each man becoming a petty lord of his own land. Thus, the tradition of individualism and egalitarianism in Amerika was rooted in the poisoned concept of equal privileges for a new nation of European conquerors. quote:This history proves concretely that the strategy of settleristic assimilation and the tactics that flowed from it were incorrect for Afrikan miners, and that their true strategic interests lay not only in national liberation but in developing their own fighting organizations which alone could defend their true class interests. It was only from that foundation that correct tactical relations could have been made with Euro-Amerikan workers. Correct alliances must be based on correct strategy. We also see how the Euro-Amerikan labor aristocracy uses tactical unity and the surface appearance of advancing the common good, but only really acts to protect settler privilege and maintain settler hegemony over labor. It is always important to go beneath the surface appearances of such tactical unity, no matter how good it looks. rudatron fucked around with this message at 05:03 on May 12, 2018 |
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May 12, 2018 04:57
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and far from the suggestion that white supremacy is something that 'evolved' over us history, he actually explicitly casts the first 'settlers' as themselves embodying this trans-historical settlerism that 'continues to this day', something which he pins (ironically) on egalitarianism and individualism. He's of course wrong, egalitarianism and individualism have their roots in the French Revolution, and they're actually good things overall, but he casts them as the foundation of settlerism and therefore white identity, and then performs some mental gymnastics as to why this necessarily leads to white supremacy.
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May 12, 2018 05:02
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What's really laying beneath all of this, and why gullible people like HomeEx buy into it, is a resentment over the failures of leftism during the 60s, and the dominant narrative that's brought up is that whites 'betrayed' this movement, and that signals that whites can never be trusted again. It's a self-serving narrative that a particular kind of leftist buys into, because it side-steps having to do any self-examination or taking a broader historical look, as to why the alliances break down and why more generally the promise of socialism was tainted -- something that's impossible to do without examining the history and legacy of the Soviet Union, which is not all positive. But if you buy into a moralistic framework, you don't have to accept any responsibility for those failures, and can instead externalize it onto something else. In this case, white people, for which the obvious retort is to suggest that only black people can be revolutionary and to reject the possibility of racial solidarity.
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May 12, 2018 05:07
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serious question: why do people randomly replace c with k
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May 12, 2018 05:20
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because the United $nake$ of Amerikkka must be crushed
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May 12, 2018 05:23
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Hm I wonder which mod gassed that Marx thread
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May 12, 2018 05:24
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rudatron posted:and far from the suggestion that white supremacy is something that 'evolved' over us history, he actually explicitly casts the first 'settlers' as themselves embodying this trans-historical settlerism that 'continues to this day', something which he pins (ironically) on egalitarianism and individualism. I just got here but this sounds like the worst guy ever
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May 12, 2018 05:25
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StashAugustine posted:serious question: why do people randomly replace c with k it’s a MTW thing, idk
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May 12, 2018 05:25
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After reading the other interview, I think he's just a regular internationalist who's being deliberately provocative for a bit of catharsis and to draw attention to the book. Maybe it's dumb, but whatever. Just extract the good historical parts from it.
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May 12, 2018 05:27
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cummunism
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May 12, 2018 07:51
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Darkman Fanpage posted:cummunism
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May 12, 2018 08:20
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Hm I wonder which mod gassed that Marx thread me 
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May 12, 2018 08:54
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Hm I wonder which mod gassed that Marx thread i've been away from mod buttons since friday weirdo
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May 12, 2018 08:56
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Darkman Fanpage posted:cummunism
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May 12, 2018 08:57
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if we're talking about the 1960s it's pretty obvious the most revolutionary movements of that era were explicitly based in liberation for oppressed nations and the least effective were the ones with white leadership like sds and the yippies. sorry if this offends.
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May 12, 2018 09:02
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Darkman Fanpage posted:cummunism
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May 12, 2018 09:02
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if your brain weren't made of cottage cheese, rudatron, you'd be able to tell the difference between pointing out failures of racial solidarity in the past as teachable moments and the abandonment of solidarity as a concept.
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May 12, 2018 09:05
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Hm I wonder which mod gassed that Marx thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv5fqunQ_4I
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May 12, 2018 09:10
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May 12, 2018 09:31
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R. Guyovich posted:if your brain weren't made of cottage cheese, rudatron, you'd be able to tell the difference between pointing out failures of racial solidarity in the past as teachable moments and the abandonment of solidarity as a concept.
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May 12, 2018 11:09
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R. Guyovich posted:if your brain weren't made of cottage cheese, rudatron, you'd be able to tell the difference between pointing out failures of racial solidarity in the past as teachable moments and the abandonment of solidarity as a concept. please, their brain is not made out of cottage cheese, they have a solid and well-made brain that is neither inhabited by worms or spiders it's just that they strip completely naked when they want to fight (I would have linked it but jeez louise, this is happening more often than I thought, NSFW)
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May 12, 2018 11:36
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rudatron posted:You've signal boosted and consistently defended a guy whos lesson they learnt from that history was 'racial separatism sounds rad', you absolutely have abandoned solidarity. You're consistently misinterpreting J. Sakai because you have a weird problem about acknowledging any historical and ongoing problems with white people in America, which is the weirdest hill to die on in the age of Trump.
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May 12, 2018 12:12
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imagine not wanting to kill all white people
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May 12, 2018 13:04
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what white leftists think J. Sakai is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdE46vbAmKg
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May 12, 2018 13:06
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jokes on you I’m jewish not white
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May 12, 2018 13:12
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Weird thing to say but alright.
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May 12, 2018 14:53
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R. Guyovich posted:if we're talking about the 1960s it's pretty obvious the most revolutionary movements of that era were explicitly based in liberation for oppressed nations and the least effective were the ones with white leadership like sds and the yippies. sorry if this offends. I don’t disagree exactly but what do you mean by “most revolutionary” and “least effective”? I mean they pretty much all failed didn’t they?
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May 12, 2018 17:01
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Peel posted:if you wanted to claim that he has an excessive focus on ethnic nationalism that would, if the basis for a mass revolutionary movement, ultimately scupper the construction of socialism and probably lead to grave crimes, that's probably a defensible position. This is, for the record, my position. Sakai isn't a would-be genocidaire, or even really an essentialist. He just has a really archaic ethnic nationalist politics.
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May 12, 2018 17:02
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The only thing to do is pony up the  to get Sakai an account, let him duke it out in the real arena of ideas: c-spam
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May 12, 2018 17:06
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I don’t disagree exactly but what do you mean by “most revolutionary” and “least effective”? I mean they pretty much all failed didn’t they? The Yippies and SDS broke apart due to their own internal contradictions or aimlessness. Leaders in the Rainbow Coalition had to be murdered or jailed to suppress their activities.
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May 12, 2018 17:07
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