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punk rebel ecks posted:Why the gently caress didn't they finish this into a full season!? We may get it eventually. Hopefully.
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May 11, 2018 21:04
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punk rebel ecks posted:Why the gently caress didn't they finish this into a full season!? They're waiting for Triad, duh.
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May 12, 2018 00:43
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The first two anime seasons were promotional material for the live action movies, so unless we get a third kaiji movie we probably won't get season 3.
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May 12, 2018 00:58
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Ibram Gaunt posted:The first two anime seasons were promotional material for the live action movies, so unless we get a third kaiji movie we probably won't get season 3. I thought animation would be more expensive than live action films.
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May 12, 2018 02:33
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punk rebel ecks posted:I thought animation would be more expensive than live action films. Not even remotely. For perspective 50-75% of most anime series-related expenditures is buying the timeslot as an infomercial, and the content is a financial afterthought. Cocktail napkin math, it's very plausible that movie 2 (an hour and a half) had a standard marketing outlay of "around as much as filming" and almost all of that went to season 2 (around 12 hours). I don't know where I put the tses, so I can't comment on what the advertising mix was/roughly how much of the airing cost was absorbed by the committee.
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May 12, 2018 15:20
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Mandoric posted:Not even remotely. For perspective 50-75% of most anime series-related expenditures is buying the timeslot as an infomercial, and the content is a financial afterthought. Animation is ridiculously expensive though. Even if an episode was "only" $500,000 to produce, that would be a pretty penny to spend on promotion material. But to be fair I'm not too seasoned with this topic.
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May 12, 2018 20:11
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punk rebel ecks posted:Animation is ridiculously expensive though. Even if an episode was "only" $500,000 to produce, that would be a pretty penny to spend on promotion material. But to be fair I'm not too seasoned with this topic. 500K? More like 150. Anime is ridiculously cheap.
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May 12, 2018 21:01
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chiasaur11 posted:500K? More like 150. Anime is ridiculously cheap. How? Do they just pay their workers less than minimim wage? I know American shows cost around a million dollars per episode.
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May 12, 2018 21:06
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150k is lowballing it. its more like 220k on the moderate-to-low end of the scale. but also yes, animators dont get paid a lot. your average animator is living off like 15k USD a year, pure inbetweeners making even less. plus there are expenses that anime doesnt have to worry about, like locations, background actors, special effects, catering, etc. plus even the top of the line VAs arent making as much as most big TV actors. Endorph fucked around with this message at 21:30 on May 12, 2018 |
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May 12, 2018 21:27
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How the gently caress can you survive on 15k a year!?
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May 13, 2018 00:19
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punk rebel ecks posted:How the gently caress can you survive on 15k a year!? This chart contains the average.  Animator's are payed by the page. So they tend to make crap. It was a system that worked better in the older days for them. But the system was never updated. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 00:31 on May 13, 2018 |
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May 13, 2018 00:22
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MonsterEnvy posted:
What the gently caress is this poo poo? How can you live off of this!? Where do the profits even go? CEO heads I assume?
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May 13, 2018 00:27
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Hey is a guy describing it. An animator who moved to japan to work on something he loved. Some guy who moved to japan to work on Anime posted:The pay/hours change depending on who you are and what your job is. The best position (which only the best of the best can manage) is "freelance genga-man aka freelance key-frame animator" ... you can demand your own prices and actually take time off after project if you want. For everyone else (and definitely for inbetween artists like me), its as bad as the rumors. I worked at a slave-labor-inbetween-studio called "nakamura pro" for 8 months before moving onto Pierrot which is where I am now. At Nakamura pro we were paid $1 per drawing, meaning you earned between $5 and $25 a day. At Pierrot it`s way better... but still pretty bad. 1 drawing = $2-$4 .... so on any given day I can earn about $40. (HORRIBLE by anyone's standards.... but, if you want to work on cool anime, there's not much choice.) quote:Thurlow says the anime industry is "a particularly harsh industry, even by Japanese standards." People, he explains, are overworked to the point that they vomit, and crunch time is brutal. The less-busy periods are six-day work weeks, ten hours a day. So pretty much you want to move up from inbetweener, to key frame animator were the pay is better. Some can eventually get the Freelance job or chief animator jobs which are the best paying. But you have to go through hell first. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 00:39 on May 13, 2018 |
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May 13, 2018 00:32
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punk rebel ecks posted:What the gently caress is this poo poo? How can you live off of this!? Where do the profits even go? CEO heads I assume? You'd be surprised what you can live on if you have to. It's lovely, but people have managed to get by on even less when they've had no alternatives. (Although it might require memorizing the locations of McDonalds dumpsters.) As for the second question, that assumes profits. Anime's an industry that tends to work on really tight margins. There are huge successes that can sustain a studio on their own, but most shows are lucky to break even. The industry survives primarily due to low costs.
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May 13, 2018 00:50
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the saying is that anime is subsidized by dads just happy their failson is chainsmoking on a different doorstep also in regards to numbers, 150k isn't average anymore but certainly isn't unusual. our best numbers still come from a leaked bid/internal budget from 2007 that got out because of a virus that lurks as fake porn and then lowkey zips and limewires your entire my documents folder that someone got hunting j/o material on an office pc, and it details a successful bid to adapt a midrange property popular enough to still have the occasional avatar here which came to 12 million yen an episode from zero to ready-to-air. also, as a note, it's standard for a non-blockbuster film to spend about as much on marketing as production.
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May 13, 2018 01:48
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I just can't imagining surviving in a first world country only brining home $300 a month. Hell even the other job he talked about was only $5.74 on average if it was a 40 hour a day job (it's really 60). It only makes sense to me if its mostly a bunch of kids living at home trying to work for two years or so before becoming a freelance professional where they can earn a living pay. It seems that there is a price to pay for a country to be able to produce so much animation.
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May 13, 2018 01:48
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that's why there's stuff like dorms for new animators trying to break into the business and also, yeah, a lot of animators still have some money coming in from parents or relatives, or make side money making doujins or whatever.
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May 13, 2018 02:22
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punk rebel ecks posted:I just can't imagining surviving in a first world country only brining home $300 a month. Hell even the other job he talked about was only $5.74 on average if it was a 40 hour a day job (it's really 60). It only makes sense to me if its mostly a bunch of kids living at home trying to work for two years or so before becoming a freelance professional where they can earn a living pay. that's how it is for many people in 'first world nations' lol. why you think people in fukumoto manga are so desperate for moolah
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May 13, 2018 02:39
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Plutonis posted:that's how it is for many people in 'first world nations' lol. why you think people in fukumoto manga are so desperate for moolah I can't imagine something like this happening in Brazil.
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May 13, 2018 02:44
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punk rebel ecks posted:I can't imagine something like this happening in Brazil. 
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May 13, 2018 02:51
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punk rebel ecks posted:I just can't imagining surviving in a first world country only brining home $300 a month. Hell even the other job he talked about was only $5.74 on average if it was a 40 hour a day job (it's really 60). It only makes sense to me if its mostly a bunch of kids living at home trying to work for two years or so before becoming a freelance professional where they can earn a living pay. Animators in Japan subsist on a diet of instant ramen and good wishes. It is 100% a passion thing for plenty of them and, as such, are terribly exploited. Same deal for manga assistants and the like. And many are definitely not kids. I still remember when SNK (the video game company) was hiring people to help with their sprites. Mind you, this was for a video game so the sprites have to be of much higher quality than your typical anime and yet the salary was lower than what you would get working at a convenience store. But you get to say you drew Terry Bogard! In the pop team epic thread there is a link to an interview about the development of the show where they mention how expensive it was to get actual French voice actresses (this is not expensive by any actual means). Anime is real thrifty. trucutru fucked around with this message at 07:07 on May 13, 2018 |
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May 13, 2018 06:57
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I understood that animators are not paid well, but... There's a difference between bad pay and "literally would make more part time at a gas station". That's pretty awful.
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May 13, 2018 07:11
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Azathoth256 posted:I understood that animators are not paid well, but... There's a difference between bad pay and "literally would make more part time at a gas station". That's pretty awful. As the Shriobako chart shows the Part Timer makes almost double what the animator does on average.
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May 13, 2018 09:09
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punk rebel ecks posted:I just can't imagining surviving in a first world country only brining home $300 a month. Hell even the other job he talked about was only $5.74 on average if it was a 40 hour a day job (it's really 60). It only makes sense to me if its mostly a bunch of kids living at home trying to work for two years or so before becoming a freelance professional where they can earn a living pay. they can also sleep at the office or at the company dorms (pa works)
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May 13, 2018 09:56
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I guess if animators in Japan got paid the same in America, then there wouldn't be as much anime.
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May 13, 2018 10:30
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a lot of the reason animators don't get paid as much is because the producers get more money out of the production of an anime than the studio that made it. Say you're making an anime based on a manga that runs in shonen jump. Your producers would be Shonen Jump's parent company and Shonen Jump itself, naturally. Since it's a popular property with a lot of fight scenes, some game company's already on board to make the games, so they'll probably kick in some money to help get the anime made. The characters have very nice designs, so a company's already on board to make the figures, and they toss some into the pot too. Since it's a big shonen action property, it'll probably do well in the west, so Funimation might put in a token amount just to get first dibs at licensing it. Obviously it's gotta air somewhere, so a TV network puts in some cash too. The producers take all of that money and then hand it to an animation studio - it's enough money to cover the cost of production, and a bit extra, but not a lot extra. Think of it like construction companies and the government - they care about quality, but generally the rights go to whoever's promising acceptable levels of quality for the lowest amounts of money. Sometimes you get animation studios pitching adaptations around, because they want to get in there first, but even in those cases they'd get a production committee together. The production committee gets all the money - the anime sells more manga volumes, and that goes to shonen jump and its parent companies, and of course the author. The tv network sells advertising space during its timeslot, and that money goes to them. The game company gets the profits from the games, etc. The studio's profits consist solely of whatever money they were given that they didn't spend on making the thing, and blu-ray sales - they get a fairly reasonable split with whatever company packages and distributes the blu-rays. The reason blu-rays are so expensive are because anime studios would go out of business if they priced them reasonably and then got a flop, but with the prices they have them at, even if an anime only sells a couple thousand or even a few hundred blu-rays, they can recoup some of the cost of production. This is also why the best companies to work for are either places like Sunrise and Toei, which are owned by huge corporations and are huge corporations in their own right, with their own libraries of original, profitable IPs, or Kyoto Animation, which is a 'prestige' studio that mostly makes original anime or anime based on light novels that they own the rights to, meaning they get to keep all the profits. Kyoto Animation can even afford things like maternity leave! Studio Ghibli's another comparatively decent studio to work for, since they just make their own original films and are very, very prestigious. Keep in mind these places are just normal job levels of decent to work for, and in some cases even below that, they just aren't as hellish as your average c-list anime studio. Your average anime studio is barely staying afloat, which is the real reason why there's so much anime being produced. Pretty much every studio is living paycheck to paycheck in the same way its animators are, they don't get enough money to take their time with productions. The anime itself makes barely any money, the stuff the anime exists to advertise makes all the money. That's why if you look at that chart, even high level people on the anime side of things like the directors aren't really making that much. You could make as much as an anime director managing a McDonalds.
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May 13, 2018 12:28
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a couple nitpicks and additions to that very good post: 'a tv company will probably kick in money, it's gotta air somewhere' isn't precisely the truth; the tv airing is by far the biggest expense involved, significantly higher than the actual production, and by no means is involvement from a broadcaster guaranteed or even always desired once you get out of daytime shows that they're chasing for ratings. (the flip side is that if you buy the slot outright, you can sell or "sell" advertising on your own; x major publisher involved in a project can easily fill it with ads for their manga or other anime or record label, internally billed to those departments by the risk-isolating subsidiary that's production committee of the show itself.) because of how tv markets are split in japan also often contributes to the phenomenon of a plurality of leechers being japanese - most anime doesn't air across most of the country, and airs weeks late where it does, because the producers would have to buy airtime in places they can't see being profitable. and in terms of studio margins, that ￥12m bid i mentioned earlier came with an internal costs estimate closer to ￥11m than ￥10m. Mandoric fucked around with this message at 20:42 on May 13, 2018 |
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May 13, 2018 15:18
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This all sounds terrible.
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May 13, 2018 19:04
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punk rebel ecks posted:This all sounds terrible. Well, that's because it is terrible. And as long as there is profit to be made on the upper levels it'll continue without many changes.
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May 14, 2018 06:40
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Socialized anime! Animators unite!
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May 14, 2018 07:00
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Without going to much into the history of animator unionization, it's proven itself both open to capture by established large employers and to abandonment by popup small employers sniping contracts/hiring scabs (see the reformer/radical clash in the Toei house union through the '60s which basically set the stage for how the industry works.) Because there's so little capital required to be an employer and thus so little margin for one, the sharpest alienation lies between publisher-distributors and contract production houses rather than between contract production houses and labor, even though some of the latter lean more toward Tezuka's noblesse oblige and some of the latter lean more toward Tezuka's ruthless cost-cutting. There isn't enough actual money in production to pay a living wage, since the bulk of late-night anime is treated as a marketing expense competing against an AdWords buy rather than a product of its own, and even a straight-up coop arrangement shunting all hypothetical profit straight to the artists would at best double animator wages (so ignoring support staff) and bring it in line with working McDonald's except it also has unpaid overtime. About the best you could do while remaining close to what anime is now is to move more productions back inhouse at publishers with salaried staff attached to long-running genre pushes that the company can benefit from their specialization in, but that would also mean a deliberate retreat from the variety and novelty that established the post-Eva, many-stakeholder-pilot-project global young adult anime market. (And good luck reviving the post-Gundam one to replace it, the worker insecurity was even worse there with single-episode commissions abounding and that was when ￥14,980 for a 30-minute videotape was considered a fair price.)
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May 14, 2018 18:05
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I feel almost dirty watching anime now.
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May 14, 2018 18:41
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Oh yeah it appears Kaiji part 6 is called "24-Oku Dashutsu Hen" or "2.4 Billion Escape Arc"
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May 14, 2018 20:15
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punk rebel ecks posted:I feel almost dirty watching anime now. Well, there are people doing things like running animator dorms to reduce cost of living for people just starting out. You could find one, confirm it's legit, and donate, turn the guilt into some kind of positive action.
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May 14, 2018 22:23
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Ibram Gaunt posted:The first two anime seasons were promotional material for the live action movies, so unless we get a third kaiji movie we probably won't get season 3. Zawa..Zawa...Zawa...
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May 18, 2018 13:57
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MonsterEnvy posted:Oh yeah it appears Kaiji part 6 is called "24-Oku Dashutsu Hen" or "2.4 Billion Escape Arc" I wonder if this will be the end for Kaiji or if he'll use that money for a final showdown with Hyoudo like an idiot.
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May 18, 2018 19:22
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kaiji's the best
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May 18, 2018 19:39
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Also the new chapters are out.
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May 21, 2018 22:42
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RatHat posted:I wonder if this will be the end for Kaiji or if he'll use that money for a final showdown with Hyoudo like an idiot.
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May 21, 2018 22:44
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MonsterEnvy posted:Also the new chapters are out. This is some primo manga!!
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May 21, 2018 23:32
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