|
https://twitter.com/TimothyS/status/996556572422758400 lol, this is great
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 02:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 15:27 |
|
|
fishmech posted:I doubt the South Koreans made it up. It's simply that North Korea changed their mind to find a pretense to halt talks which they know is very unlikely to be addressed. I agree that they changed their mind about deciding to make it an issue, but don't think they'll actually cancel the summit over it since it's been a long term goal of theirs. Moon's willingness to work for a deal is what's bringing this all together, but it also makes him the weak link Kim can use to extract concessions and keep trying to drive a wedge (even if it's a very small one for now) between the ROK and the US. https://twitter.com/ArmsControlWonk/status/996554703872737280
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 02:51
|
|
|
Welp. It was nice while it lasted. https://twitter.com/joshjonsmith/status/996576704054181888
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 03:27
|
|
|
The US is maybe excluding nuclear capable bombers from its annual simulated invasion of North Korea, at the request of its nominal security partner. This is apparently such an issue that it's seen as "driving a wedge" between the US and South Korea.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 03:28
|
|
|
The idea of Trump winning a Nobel Peace Prize is so incredibly wrong that the universe itself is reversing any progress made to try and achieve equilibrium.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 03:30
|
|
|
brockan posted:Welp. It was nice while it lasted. Maybe I'm wrong! That looks a bit more serious, and brings the irreconcilable issues to the forefront now instead of later. Chomskyan posted:The US is maybe excluding nuclear capable bombers from its annual simulated invasion of North Korea, at the request of its nominal security partner. This is apparently such an issue that it's seen as "driving a wedge" between the US and South Korea. I said it was admittedly a very small one, so it seems dishonest for you to go with your "such an issue" take. But yes, of course extracting a concession from the more dovish side of a military partnership is an attempt to drive a wedge between them. People were just talking earlier today in this thread about how great it would be if the US left the peninsula entirely, which is obviously North Korea's goal, and one you presumably would like to see as well. Just own it instead of acting like saying North Korea wants it, the US largely doesn't (except for Trump's sometimes isolationist instincts), and North Korea is trying to persuade South Korea that it's better to side with them than the US on that issue is exposing some kind of secret. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 03:41 on May 16, 2018 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 03:38
|
|
|
I don't think the US entirely withdrawing for the peninsula would have to "drive a wedge" in our relationship either. It is possible to have friendly relations with countries you're not militarily occupying
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 03:49
|
|
|
Chomskyan posted:I don't think the US entirely withdrawing for the peninsula would have to "drive a wedge" in our relationship either. It is possible to have friendly relations with countries you're not militarily occupying We're not occupying them, and you're defining the phrase into meaninglessness if you don't think a complete upending of the basis for the relationship over the last several decades doesn't count. If you think the basis of that relationship is bad, you should think driving a wedge in it is good instead of pretending it's not a goal North Korea has.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 03:50
|
|
|
Chomskyan posted:I don't think the US entirely withdrawing for the peninsula would have to "drive a wedge" in our relationship either. It is possible to have friendly relations with countries you're not militarily occupying especially considering how many ROK citizens genuinely want us to get the gently caress out, or at least MASSIVELY reduce our presence. It's almost like...relations could actually improve if we stop shoving ourselves in the middle of this issue and talking over everyone????
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 03:52
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:especially considering how many ROK citizens genuinely want us to get the gently caress out, or at least MASSIVELY reduce our presence. Hope they also support a domestic nuclear program then
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 03:57
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:Hope they also support a domestic nuclear program then I dunno, probably, nukes are hip, all the cool kids want em
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 03:59
|
|
|
brockan posted:Welp. It was nice while it lasted. Didn’t NK say they wanted denuclearization of the peninsula?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 04:37
|
|
|
Vladimir Putin posted:Didn’t NK say they wanted denuclearization of the peninsula? yes and NK has always defined that as a complete removal of the US forces, and then they'd be willing to do it because it'd be less likely they'd get invaded right away.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 04:39
|
|
|
Denuclearization with security guarantees, I thought.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 04:39
|
|
|
Vladimir Putin posted:Didn’t NK say they wanted denuclearization of the peninsula? They still said it in their statement tonight, though there was before and remains now a lot of ambiguity about what they mean when they say that. The distinction they're making now though is just making clear that they won't be dictated to, and for us to say ahead of time that they have to dismantle the entirety of their WMD programs before they get any economic benefit is a non starter. Especially with Bolton ghoulishly comparing this situation with that of Libya when Qaddafi got rid of his (far less advanced, as the statement points out) nuclear program. They're well aware of what happened to him.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 04:40
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/AlastairGale/status/996586561901809664 https://twitter.com/CatKillough/status/996595548873478145 That statement is worth reading in full. The Josh Smith tweet was highly misleading wrt its content https://twitter.com/YonhapNews/status/996587299918905345 Red and Black fucked around with this message at 05:18 on May 16, 2018 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 05:14
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:I dunno, probably, nukes are hip, all the cool kids want em Yeah, NK getting real peace talks less than a year after showing off an ICBM and Trump tearing up the Iran deal are the twin heralds of the death of non-proliferation and the beginning of a new global arms race. EDIT: I mean traditional WMD arms, obviously this will be in parallel with the Cyber free-for-all that's already been raging in the geopolitical space for the past decade. Kerning Chameleon fucked around with this message at 05:25 on May 16, 2018 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 05:23
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:They still said it in their statement tonight, though there was before and remains now a lot of ambiguity about what they mean when they say that. The distinction they're making now though is just making clear that they won't be dictated to, and for us to say ahead of time that they have to dismantle the entirety of their WMD programs before they get any economic benefit is a non starter. Especially with Bolton ghoulishly comparing this situation with that of Libya when Qaddafi got rid of his (far less advanced, as the statement points out) nuclear program. They're well aware of what happened to him. It won’t do good to dictate to NK but the US can walk away from the table at any point and lose nothing. NK won’t attack SK unless it wants to be attacked by SK/US. It’s ballistic weapons program is threatening but any attempt to launch at the US would result in total destruction of NK. So really the US can just resume doing nothing and really not be harmed. NK on the other hand is a total hot mess and is reeling back and forth perpetually in threat of collapse. So I’d say if the terms are not favorable to the US it should just walk away. It has that luxury which NK does not. That’s a leverage that NK should realize when it’s at the table.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 05:38
|
|
|
Vladimir Putin posted:Didn’t NK say they wanted denuclearization of the peninsula? They say that, but all the nukes were pulled from non-occupied Korea by 1992, and occupied Korea insisted on developing their own over the 2000s and 2010s. Denuclearization is 100% on occupied Korea to resolve, Korea and the US handled it before Bill Clinton took office and even Bush or so far Trump has not yet renuclearized Korea. Sinteres posted:We're not occupying them, and you're defining the phrase into meaninglessness if you don't think a complete upending of the basis for the relationship over the last several decades doesn't count. If you think the basis of that relationship is bad, you should think driving a wedge in it is good instead of pretending it's not a goal North Korea has. Please remember you're talking to someone who thinks the Soviets didn't do colonialism in the North and didn't heavily work with Japanese collborators. Reality isn't his thing.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 05:39
|
|
|
I was told that only Trump could understand the thug mind, and that all we had to do to turn around decades of diplomacy not going the way we want is to gut the State Department and fill the executive branch with morons, who would then stumble into total victory, what went wrong?? NK probably isn't going to pull out of the summit and is demanding stuff to see what they can get Trump to do to "save" a summit that he's staked so much of his legitimacy on, but if the answer is nothing, then it costs NK nothing to just back down and do the summit anyway. They still get their photo op in exchange for... well, that's actually a good question, now that the expectation of NK giving up their nukes is catching up with reality, what are we actually expecting to get out of this?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 06:10
|
|
|
OneEightHundred posted:NK probably isn't going to pull out of the summit and is demanding stuff to see what they can get Trump to do to "save" a summit that he's staked so much of his legitimacy on, but if the answer is nothing, then it costs NK nothing to just back down and do the summit anyway. They still get their photo op in exchange for... well, that's actually a good question, now that the expectation of NK giving up their nukes is catching up with reality, what are we actually expecting to get out of this? Trump wants the photo op almost as badly as Kim does. He's not a very results driven guy. Vladimir Putin posted:It won’t do good to dictate to NK but the US can walk away from the table at any point and lose nothing. NK won’t attack SK unless it wants to be attacked by SK/US. It’s ballistic weapons program is threatening but any attempt to launch at the US would result in total destruction of NK. So really the US can just resume doing nothing and really not be harmed. NK on the other hand is a total hot mess and is reeling back and forth perpetually in threat of collapse. Walking away from the table and doing nothing has been the standard US line for decades, and North Korea's gone from being able to threaten Seoul with artillery to being able to threaten Washington with an ICBM. The regime's endured considerably worse hardship than they are now, and is in a pretty decent position to negotiate a side deal with a particularly dovish South Korean leader if the US is viewed as the unreasonable party during negotiations, since Trump shifting back to warmongering rhetoric will just scare South Koreans that much more. I'm not optimistic about the summit, but honestly I think even an incomplete deal that just creates the basis for some level of nonconfrontational relationship going forward is better than no deal. The status quo is pretty awful. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 11:52 on May 16, 2018 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 11:46
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Trump wants the photo op almost as badly as Kim does. He's not a very results driven guy.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 17:35
|
|
|
OneEightHundred posted:Trump wants it more, that's the point, it's why they're the ones making demands and threatening to pull out if they don't get what they want. Nah. If the North Koreans were boasting 24/7 about how they forced Trump to the table and he's going to cave to their superior might, he'd walk away from the summit too. Trump's supporters were talking too much poo poo, so North Korea said hey cut it out. The whole point for North Korea is to at least symbolically be meeting as equals, not to be presented as crawling on their knees for a deal.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 17:52
|
|
|
White House downplays Bolton comments after North Korea outcry lmao, get hosed Bolton
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 17:57
|
|
|
Going for that Nobel
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:04
|
|
|
Chomskyan posted:White House downplays Bolton comments after North Korea outcry What really worries me is how much better the North Koreans seem to be at this whole negotiating thing. First they got Trump so invested that he was already practicing his nobel peace price acceptance speech, now they lightly threaten to pull it away and the white house position is already crumbling...
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:04
|
|
|
Confusion posted:What really worries me is how much better the North Koreans seem to be at this whole negotiating thing. First they got Trump so invested that he was already practicing his nobel peace price acceptance speech, now they lightly threaten to pull it away and the white house position is already crumbling... Trump is easy to play once you understand his personality is just in need of constant validation.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:05
|
|
|
Confusion posted:What really worries me is how much better the North Koreans seem to be at this whole negotiating thing. First they got Trump so invested that he was already practicing his nobel peace price acceptance speech, now they lightly threaten to pull it away and the white house position is already crumbling... They're not particularly good, it's just that we're really bad. China and South Korea presumably want way less than we do, Trump is a loving open book, and his supporters and top officials ran their mouths in public and now look real bad. They started to believe their own BS that it was Trump's bellicosity that brought Kim to the table alone, and not Moon's diplomacy and Kim's confidence in his deterrent capabilities. It's one thing to start with an extreme position, i.e. total denuclearization, root and stem, and then make your way towards some sort of compromise; it's another entirely to air that position in public, say that your opponent has been humiliated and has come crawling in fear to the table, and give the other countries involved no credit even nominally. KaptainKrunk fucked around with this message at 18:26 on May 16, 2018 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:24
|
|
|
You all just have missed that South Korea is the primary negotiator and decision maker here. They just signed an agreement with the North to end hostile acts against each other. The North pointed out that the exercises constitute a hostile act from their perspective, which is not exactly surprising as they've been saying that for years. The South making a concession to bring itself into closer compliance with an agreement it just made is also completely non shocking. The primary thing the US media gets wrong is that their narrative puts the US at the center of this, when it simply isn't. North and South Korea are. Trump and the US aren't getting played, they just have zero leverage.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:26
|
|
|
fishmech posted:
I'd like to read about this if you can link.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:30
|
|
|
Chomskyan posted:You all just have missed that South Korea is the primary negotiator and decision maker here. They just signed an agreement with the North to end hostile acts against each other. The North pointed out that the exercises constitute a hostile act from their perspective, which is not exactly surprising as they've been saying that for years. The South making a concession to bring itself into closer compliance with an agreement it just made is also completely non shocking. I think the US has leverage otherwise there would be no need for a Kim-Trump meeting. And I doubt SK would make a deal without input from the US. Just look at the history of the conflict. The US is pretty involved.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:39
|
|
|
Chomskyan posted:You all just have missed that South Korea is the primary negotiator and decision maker here. They just signed an agreement with the North to end hostile acts against each other. The North pointed out that the exercises constitute a hostile act from their perspective, which is not exactly surprising as they've been saying that for years. The South making a concession to bring itself into closer compliance with an agreement it just made is also completely non shocking. If they actually told the South Koreans a month ago that the exercise wouldn't be a problem, this isn't really just sticking to the terms of what they agreed. It's not just an inter-Korean dispute, and they're responding to the US position.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:40
|
|
|
Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:I'd like to read about this if you can link. About what, exactly? It's just plain old history that these things happened, up to and including the Soviet occupation zone having the civilian side led by a Japanese-government installed Korean for quite some time until he refused to bow deeply enough to Stalin, at which point they put Kim Il-Sung in charge.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:49
|
|
|
This will come as a surprise to no one, but fishmech is an idiot. This is the "Japanese-government installed Korean" he's referring to: 
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:58
|
|
|
Chomskyan posted:This will come as a surprise to no one, but fishmech is an idiot. This is the "Japanese-government installed Korean" he's referring to: So you're really too stupid to see how this was literally collaborating with the Japanese, huh?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 19:13
|
|
|
Collaborating with the nipponese is only bad if you’re a COMMIE!! -American liberals
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 19:15
|
|
|
fishmech posted:So you're really too stupid to see how this was literally collaborating with the Japanese, huh? "This guy who protested against the Japanese colonial regime independently formed a local government when Japan lost WW2, and the remaining colonial government officials let him do his thing so they could maintain stability while evacuating from Korea. Clearly this man was a collaborator and colonial puppet who should have been first up against the wall." Seriously, do you even hear yourself?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 19:16
|
|
|
Fishmech is only using that as a whataboutist rebuttal to the south being basically all Japanese colonial administrators. Presumably very fine people he has no issues with.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 19:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 15:27 |
|
|
South Korea is clearly a SHIELD/Hydra kind of situation where they were infiltrated by Japanese spies from the very beginning and they've secretly been Japan the entire time.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 19:21
|
|