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Volmarias posted:I'm glad that you're super super definitely (definitely!) not a bigot but maybe you can accept that bigots exist in the world and there's a reason we want to call them out, and also not want them to be accepted? Exactly this. Please listen when people tell you this is a problem, especially when it comes from people in those communities. I'm a queer woman, and I can tell you it's really loving important that these conversations are had and people change behaviors/call out others. It's not ideological culture warrior stuff to me, it's my loving life, and I have to always keep in the back of my mind that maybe one day I could get fired or passed over because one time I brought my partner to work and my boss decided he didn't like those weird gays. And I'm not even receiving the brunt of discrimination. Look at those statistics I posted for the tech leaver's survey. People of color, especially women, are not getting the same opportunities as others. It does affect the open source community because a lot of people have social media presences, where it's not too hard to suss out race/gender/sexuality. You handwaving it away as some internet 'drama' is dismissive, rude, and belittling.
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May 15, 2018 18:19
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rt4 posted:Sure, you wouldn't, then somebody starts complaining about a discount rate agency from India or there's booth babes and suddenly it becomes pretty awkward to work in computing if you're not a white man, to say the least. I don't really think codes of conduct are a good way to handle it (I prefer unapologetic surprise bans) but you've got to set a standard of behavior somehow or you end up with Twitter. The policy is what you point to to justify the bans to the people who complain about them, duh
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May 15, 2018 18:21
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Many of the reasons why women, or anybody else but white dudes, would be disinclined to pursue a career in technology are not actually mysteries at all, not least because they are described in great detail by the people who experience that disinclination. If you want to avoid being a dick on this topic, you can get a very large fraction of the way there by starting with a simple, straightforward principle: listen. When people describe their experiences, listen. Listen and hear. Your inclination will be to interpret what they're saying in the context of your own experiences, which differ from yours in important ways that it is your privilege to be able to not notice. You're not impartial. You will want to find an explanation got the discrepancy between the world you have experienced and the world implied by what you have just heard. "I'm right and you're wrong" may be your initial instinct. "I need a lot more explanation from you right now" is a common follow-up. Both of these are actually pretty rude.
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May 15, 2018 18:30
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I especially like the twisted logic that makes people react with, "Well, I don't need this code of conduct, so why are we adopting it?"
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May 15, 2018 18:36
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amotea posted:Ugh this poo poo is now in open source code repos? amotea posted:The fact that people feel the need to write these long manifestos about it seems obsessive and racist in itself. amotea posted:What I don't agree with though is this stuff:
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May 15, 2018 18:40
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Keetron posted:
Spring Reactor != React. Spring 5/Spring Boot 2 brings in a bunch of new reactive/event driven style apis to the framework. Spring Boot is still great, not knocking it at all. Definitely look in to the new Reactor framework, it's pretty sweet and should bring a lot of improved performance to Spring. withoutclass fucked around with this message at 18:43 on May 15, 2018 |
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May 15, 2018 18:41
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JawnV6 posted:This isn't some made-up culture war BS, it's a measured effect. Watch out, that link is from 2016, take it slow. Like it's a genuine appeal to increase the efficacy of teams, not some nefarious plan to stuff OSS projects with sub-par folks or whatever. Yes, but: https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better It's very unclear that as an individual developer, you will personally be happier or otherwise better off in a highly diverse environment.
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May 15, 2018 18:48
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rt4 posted:I don't really think codes of conduct are a good way to handle it (I prefer unapologetic surprise bans) but you've got to set a standard of behavior somehow or you end up with Twitter. This is my problem with CoC: I feel like way too many people think "This project does not have CoC, its internal culture is poo poo" versus "This project has adopted CoC, all is good with the world", forgetting that the actually important part is enforcement of the rules. Without moderation, no amount of CoC can help.
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May 15, 2018 19:31
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baquerd posted:It's very unclear that as an individual developer, you will personally be happier or otherwise better off in a highly diverse environment. Not trying to be glib but: so what? Are anti-CoC folks ever couching their distaste as a personal comfort issue or caring about happiness? I've literally never seen that tack, it's generally framed as "this CoC is a distraction from the Real Work" with an optional "gently caress your feelings" vibe. The focus is on efficacy, not any of these concerns.
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May 15, 2018 19:37
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JawnV6 posted:Not trying to be glib but: so what? Are anti-CoC folks ever couching their distaste as a personal comfort issue or caring about happiness? I've literally never seen that tack, it's generally framed as "this CoC is a distraction from the Real Work" with an optional "gently caress your feelings" vibe. The focus is on efficacy, not any of these concerns. Well, now that you've seen the argument, are you saying it's invalid to want to maximize personal happiness in one's job?
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May 15, 2018 20:00
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baquerd posted:Well, now that you've seen the argument, are you saying it's invalid to want to maximize personal happiness in one's job? Again, if I'd seen any anti-CoC person actually pick up that banner it *might* warrant discussion around "validity" like you're framing. But they're generally lazy bigots who assume "efficacy" has them 100% covered and are wholly unaware of the field of research, much less this one discovery you're hung up on. What's the use in the devil's advocacy here? I'd be perfectly fine if the anti-CoC folks were genuinely asserting they prioritize their lack emotional discomfort and prefer to work alongside those of their own race to the detriment of their success. It'd be awesome to see that level of candor, can you provide a link?
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May 15, 2018 20:07
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JawnV6 posted:I'd be perfectly fine if the anti-CoC folks were genuinely asserting they prioritize their lack emotional discomfort and prefer to work alongside those of their own race to the detriment of their success. It'd be awesome to see that level of candor, can you provide a link? I've increased my prioritization of a lower-stress work life in recent years. Race and gender don't really factor into that personally, but I find it frequently frustrating working with people who have language barriers or who come from very different cultures. Going from an environment that was highly diverse in that sense to a place that was mostly Americans greatly increased my personal happiness.
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May 15, 2018 21:36
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Okay?
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May 15, 2018 21:42
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Lucky for you, Stormfront needs devs too.
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May 15, 2018 21:58
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baquerd posted:I've increased my prioritization of a lower-stress work life in recent years. Race and gender don't really factor into that personally, but I find it frequently frustrating working with people who have language barriers or who come from very different cultures. Going from an environment that was highly diverse in that sense to a place that was mostly Americans greatly increased my personal happiness. I, too, find it stressful when a person isn't white near me. I'm not even going to touch contrasting a diverse workplace with "a place that was mostly Americans".
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May 15, 2018 22:15
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ChickenWing posted:I, too, find it stressful when a person isn't white near me. How did you get to this from what I wrote? Is your knee ok being jerked around that hard?
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May 15, 2018 22:32
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"lol triggered"
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May 16, 2018 02:38
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Diversity’s side-effects are stressful. Well that’s a first. I can understand the eye rolling awfulness of self congratulatory corporate diversity initiatives (like any corporate initiative in general) or at worst case maybe not being able to make certain off-color jokes with some mutual understanding but we’re working in office environments, not the Fox Theater or Madison Square Garden. Most of my personal experiences with corporate diversity initiatives are extremely insidious and use it as a means of trying to lower average pay by increasing the number of historically disadvantaged workers, not because the business outcomes are that much better. It’s super obvious when you see these desperation moves by moribund companies rebranded as a growth strategy to get investors and prospective employees interested and is similar to how companies that adopt Six Sigma tend to trail the S&P 500 shortly afterward. This isn’t to say that diversity is bad, but I think much like ping pong tables and video games at start-ups these corporate initiatives are all missing the context in which these tangential properties arose around their success (we tend to have some weird worship of the winners and fail to cross-examine if the losers also practiced the same methods). I can go out and buy a luxury car and take up golf, but it won’t make me a F500 CEO.
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May 16, 2018 04:55
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:However, I'm a straight white guy who identifies as the sex I was born as so I just kind of cautiously back away from any of these conversations without voicing any opinions. Just like I'm doing right now. It doesn't lead to the discussion we need to have, just people not saying anything really. One false step and you're toast.
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May 16, 2018 08:16
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baquerd posted:Well, now that you've seen the argument, are you saying it's invalid to want to maximize personal happiness in one's job? Are you saying FYGM is a perfectly OK attitude to have?
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May 16, 2018 11:24
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BabyFur Denny posted:Are you saying FYGM is a perfectly OK attitude to have? The added stress is mutually shared by all involved. The only entity being told to gently caress off more unilaterally is perhaps the business and its profit motives (whether that be artificial wage depreciation and/or improved outcomes).
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May 16, 2018 12:15
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baquerd posted:The added stress is mutually shared by all involved. The only entity being told to gently caress off more unilaterally is perhaps the business and its profit motives (whether that be artificial wage depreciation and/or improved outcomes). Just fyi, the stress on the other folks you're referring to is partially caused by your attitude.
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May 16, 2018 12:23
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Diversity doesn't cause me stress  Sounds like it's you.
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May 16, 2018 12:48
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baquerd posted:The added stress is mutually shared by all involved. The only entity being told to gently caress off more unilaterally is perhaps the business and its profit motives (whether that be artificial wage depreciation and/or improved outcomes). You are an idiot and this causes stress in others. I hope any business you are in fails because your are in it. Any problem you have in life is you, you are the source of all your unhappiness and feelings. I really hope you feel like the shitstain you are. The disconnect of your perception to how mentally ill you are should make me sorry for you. Please find a therapist to get meds so you can hope to gain a fraction of humanity. While I myself am not a nice person, compared to you I look like the love child of Ghandi and Mandela. See, this is how you stress people out, having your own toxic work environment that you carry with you from place to place. It is you, only you and until you fail to see this, you will be a sorry excuse for a human.
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May 16, 2018 13:17
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baquerd posted:How did you get to this from what I wrote? Well, first I read the words, and then I cross-referenced that with the dogwhistle racism dictionary, and here we are. Joking aside, you have to understand that a majority of what you're saying here is (I assume unintentionally) almost verbatim repeating the textbook example of a person who refuses to confront their own internal biases. You're not dropping hard Rs, but you're still contributing to systematic oppression. This is the first google result I came up with https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/color-blindness-is-counterproductive/405037/ but there's a whole lot more if you do some looking around.
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May 16, 2018 13:45
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Unrelated:  handed in my resignation yesterday, finally moving out of finance/enterprise dev! Now for the requisite "oh god I am completely unqualified for this new position and am going to be fired on day 2" anxiety 
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May 16, 2018 13:53
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Mr Shiny Pants posted:It doesn't lead to the discussion we need to have, just people not saying anything really. One false step and you're toast. Keetron posted:You are an idiot and this causes stress in others. I hope any business you are in fails because your are in it.
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May 16, 2018 14:16
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Fuckin lol if you don't think a lovely language barrier doesn't cause stress and frustration for both parties. Y'all acting like you can't be frustrated while also not acting like an rear end in a top hat. Lmao withoutclass fucked around with this message at 14:54 on May 16, 2018 |
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May 16, 2018 14:51
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withoutclass posted:Y'all acting like you can't be frustrated while also not acting like an rear end in a top hat. Lmao Indeed, that is where most of the stress comes in - holding in frustrations because you'll look like a culturally insensitive rear end in a top hat if you express them honestly.
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May 16, 2018 15:00
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Casting someone repeatedly doubling down on odious and nationalistic rhetoric as "one false move" is an act of charity so large you could probably get a tax deduction for it.
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May 16, 2018 15:21
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baquerd posted:Indeed, that is where most of the stress comes in - holding in frustrations because you'll look like a culturally insensitive rear end in a top hat if you express them honestly. If expressing things how you honestly feel makes you look like an rear end in a top hat, maybe you are an rear end in a top hat? Last week I overheard one of the DBAs explaining to one of our foreign born engineers (Korean) that he didn't have to apologize every time he needed the DBAs to do something since that's their job. Somehow he managed to over come that culture barrier without being an rear end in a top hat, must've been magic.
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May 16, 2018 15:31
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The general lack of nuance and broad generalization is sad and you should feel bad. Ah yes, this one normal scenario happened to two completely different people therefore you're an rear end in a top hat! It's no better than being a lovely racist.
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May 16, 2018 16:02
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This is my risk to write but the only gripe I have in working with people on the other side of the world is the annual manager feedback that I need to use simpler English. That sounds really fair and I should in most of these conversations, but the complaint comes up when it's me and the rare other software engineer at the company--also from the other side of the world, mind you--are on a call with this side audience of people, and we have to hash out some more complicated software problem. The two of us are eveb double checking our terminology to make sure we meant the same thing. But somebody thought terms like "embedded" and "microservers" was too complicated so that's that.
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May 16, 2018 16:13
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baquerd posted:Indeed, that is where most of the stress comes in - holding in frustrations because you'll look like a culturally insensitive rear end in a top hat if you express them honestly. https://twitter.com/RawStory/status/996738966790508544 yeah, sure can
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May 16, 2018 16:14
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Wow, nice. The one false move was in context of English not being my first language. Thanks for proving my point though. Mr Shiny Pants fucked around with this message at 17:41 on May 16, 2018 |
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May 16, 2018 17:38
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How do you report an entire thread?
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May 16, 2018 17:47
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While working today, about half of the issues I ran into were due to infra issues. Then I was helped by an extremely helpful infra guy. I love this new workplace.
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May 16, 2018 18:06
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Y'all, I'm going to say this to hopefully prompt some deeper thinking. Some of you are getting very defensive over the idea that some people, different than you, want to be treated equally and fairly. This is what happens when privilege is threatened. No one is taking away anything from you. Really really, as was suggested earlier, listen instead of feeling you need to jump in and defend. Work can be stressful. That's normal and expected. We all have challenges being heard and understood, sometimes caused by language and cultural barriers. Those can be overcome, and learned from. If you inordinately stressed at the idea of having to moderate your language and behavior for others, be it due to race, language, gender, etc, you need to examine that in yourself. Not blame others for putting you in that situation.
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May 16, 2018 18:09
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baquerd posted:Yes, but: https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better This has been an amazing discussion that did not once mention the bar for "discomfort" that makes teams perform better was tested in a laboratory setting with frat bros. Someone from a different fraternity was enough "diversity" to cause better results. The effect seems more like a bystander effect thing, a homogenous jury member might assume someone like them is doing the real checking, but introducing some 'other' makes them internally refine their thought processes and be more certain. One interesting thing you didn't bother to mention: folks vastly overestimate the friction on diverse teams: quote:There’s another bias at play here, too: A 2015 paper in Organization Science, summarized in this HBR article, suggests that people overestimate the amount of conflict that actually exists on diverse teams. At no point does any referenced study address the "stress" of asking an accented colleague to repeat themselves or follow up on email. baquerd, what was your justification for tossing those in and pretending they're germane to the discussion? It seems to have nothing to do with the link you posted.
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May 16, 2018 18:16
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JawnV6 posted:At no point does any referenced study address the "stress" of asking an accented colleague to repeat themselves or follow up on email. baquerd, what was your justification for tossing those in and pretending they're germane to the discussion? It seems to have nothing to do with the link you posted. It is not appropriate for the researchers to draw the conclusion that people overestimate conflict from the evidence presented. In social situations, perception is reality. That is to say, if everyone in a group believes there is increased tension within that group, then there is increased tension by definition. As the article effectively notes, it is the presence of diversity itself that causes this increase in perceived tension. Of course content matters as well, but diversity alone causes tension: "Teams of four white men and four black men were seen as having equal levels of relationship conflict, but the diverse teams were seen as having more relationship conflict than the homogeneous teams, even though everyone had read the same transcript."
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May 16, 2018 18:31
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