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baquerd posted:It is not appropriate for the researchers to draw the conclusion that people overestimate conflict from the evidence presented. In social situations, perception is reality. That is to say, if everyone in a group believes there is increased tension within that group, then there is increased tension by definition. As the article effectively notes, it is the presence of diversity itself that causes this increase in perceived tension. Of course content matters as well, but diversity alone causes tension: "Teams of four white men and four black men were seen as having equal levels of relationship conflict, but the diverse teams were seen as having more relationship conflict than the homogeneous teams, even though everyone had read the same transcript." baquerd, what is the ultimate point of this thread of conversation? To justify yourself in your choices? To prove that like should stick to like?
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May 16, 2018 18:59
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Shirec posted:baquerd, what is the ultimate point of this thread of conversation? To justify yourself in your choices? To prove that like should stick to like? I want people to know it's OK to not love all forms of diversity all the time. There is no single workplace environment that works for everyone, and attempts at the concept really ought not to be forced on people in private companies. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 16, 2018 19:11
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baquerd posted:It is not appropriate for the researchers to draw the conclusion that people overestimate conflict from the evidence presented. baquerd posted:I want people to know it's OK to not love all forms of diversity all the time. There is no single workplace environment that works for everyone, and attempts at the concept really ought not to be forced on people in private companies.
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May 16, 2018 19:16
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JawnV6 posted:lol like I'm taking your research suggestions after your blatant misrepresentation. Defend injecting your anti-accent policy with the link you used to trash All Diversity that I'm pretty sure you didn't read. I've don't believe I've misrepresented anything, but as you were the only person to actually attempt to discuss things before joining the ad hominem train, thanks for that at least. If you're saying you're not actually for all forms of diversity all of the time though, what are the exceptions?
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May 16, 2018 19:25
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baquerd posted:I want people to know it's OK to not love all forms of diversity all the time. There is no single workplace environment that works for everyone, and attempts at the concept really ought not to be forced on people in private companies. As far as I've read in this thread, no one is saying you need to love it. You can internally think whatever you want, as long as it doesn't affect how you are treating others. Why is preventing discomfort more important than the enabling the economic opportunity of others?
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May 16, 2018 19:31
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baquerd posted:If you're saying you're not actually for all forms of diversity all of the time though, what are the exceptions? I'd encourage you to actually read my posts and engage with something, anything that I'm actually posting instead of this garbage where you're assigning me a farcical position (ALL FORMS DIVERSE ALL TIME) and edging towards "debate meeeeee!!" I have no interest in filling in for your ridiculous strawman, you seem perfectly capable of elocuting your position without using me. Go hog wild!
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May 16, 2018 19:38
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baquerd posted:I want people to know it's OK to not love all forms of diversity all the time. There is no single workplace environment that works for everyone, and attempts at the concept really ought not to be forced on people in private companies. So, you might say that you are against forced diversity? Are you going to suggest that everyone go sort themselves out into a separate ethnostate based on their heritage too?
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May 16, 2018 19:48
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BurntCornMuffin posted:So, you might say that you are against forced diversity? Are you going to suggest that everyone go sort themselves out into a separate ethnostate based on their heritage too? Well until his ethnostate needs living space of course...
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May 16, 2018 21:12
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JawnV6 posted:I'd encourage you to actually read my posts and engage with something I quoted the parts of your posts I engaged with. As for strawmen, have you seen most of the other posters? Regardless, I used the term love in hyperbole and I simply mean the belief in the general importance of diversity over competing concerns. Is that inaccurate, or how would you put your position? Shirec posted:As far as I've read in this thread, no one is saying you need to love it. You can internally think whatever you want, as long as it doesn't affect how you are treating others. As a developer, and in general, it's always a good idea to stay calm and treat others well. It's an important life skill, but if it's possible to avoid active and constant use of this skillset and instead relax and be oneself that can increase happiness. Putting personal comfort above others is just a matter of degree unless you live an impoverished life of charity. It's not a binary option.
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May 16, 2018 23:23
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baquerd posted:As a developer, and in general, it's always a good idea to stay calm and treat others well. It's an important life skill, but if it's possible to avoid active and constant use of this skillset and instead relax and be oneself that can increase happiness.  Holy poo pooYes, if you are a bad person, immersing yourself in an environment where you're allowed to be a bad person will be less stressful. (Maybe try harder to stop being a bad person so you can be happier anywhere?)
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May 16, 2018 23:40
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CPColin posted:
So it's bad to want to just live the culture I grew up with? I'm not talking about ordinary kindness, I'm talking about appearing to be calm and kind when someone is making your life actively more difficult than it needs to be.
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May 16, 2018 23:47
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baquerd posted:So it's bad to want to just live the culture I grew up with? I'm not talking about ordinary kindness, I'm talking about appearing to be calm and kind when someone is making your life actively more difficult than it needs to be.
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May 16, 2018 23:51
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baquerd posted:So it's bad to want to just live the culture I grew up with? Yes. Your culture is bad and you are bad.
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May 16, 2018 23:52
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CPColin posted:Yes. Your culture is bad and you are bad. Woah, cultures can be bad and I can freely discriminate against those ones? Is there a master list? How do you get your culture approved?
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May 16, 2018 23:55
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baquerd posted:I quoted the parts of your posts I engaged with. As for strawmen, have you seen most of the other posters? Regardless, I used the term love in hyperbole and I simply mean the belief in the general importance of diversity over competing concerns. Is that inaccurate, or how would you put your position?  Which "competing concerns" have I thrown under the bus?Forums poster "amotea" was in here trashing CoC's and used a particular argument against them relating to team efficacy. I came in to refute that exact argument, with a link to some justification, not be your imaginary pan-diversity champion. You've since latched on to that refutation and have attempted to make me stump for the position "gently caress your happiness" somehow through your own twisted insecurity? I genuinely don't understand what position you're ascribing to me and are upset that I'm not defending with more vigor. I'm refuting one particular anti-CoC argument. Pretty sure I'm done with that, cheers!
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May 16, 2018 23:57
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baquerd posted:Woah, cultures can be bad and I can freely discriminate against those ones? Is there a master list? Yes. It has one culture on it: yours. (Stop posting.)
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May 17, 2018 00:00
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baquerd posted:So it's bad to want to just live the culture I grew up with? I'm not talking about ordinary kindness, I'm talking about appearing to be calm and kind when someone is making your life actively more difficult than it needs to be. I mentioned earlier that this is about people wanting to be treated equally and fairly. For folks different than you, and we can go with the whole spectrum of differences, what is it about interacting that makes your life more difficult? Just because it's different than your culture, it shouldn't be a massive struggle to be decent. Again, do not draw this into you having to be perfectly wonderful at every interaction. Everyone gets annoyed from time to time, but there is a massive difference to being irritated at a person and being irritated at a class of people Are you more stressed interacting with a white woman, a black woman, a queer person, an immigrant, an indigenous person, someone differently abled? Do you not also see the danger of making ill informed decisions because you had no one but people with the same mindset to ask? We see over and over again the results of that. Lots of products developed, ads created, all that jazz, where anyone not a cis white male would have raised a hand to point out problems. baquerd posted:Putting personal comfort above others is just a matter of degree unless you live an impoverished life of charity. It's not a binary option. I never said it was. But you've seemed to lean very far towards not wanting to suffer any sort of discomfort caused by others not like you
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May 17, 2018 00:00
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JawnV6 posted:
Ah, there is the disconnect. I used CoC (which I know very little about) to go into a tangent on whether it is ever OK to purposely avoid active diversity efforts and inappropriately conflated your position. Sorry about that.
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May 17, 2018 00:01
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baquerd posted:So it's bad to want to just live the culture I grew up with? Think about how stupid this statement is for like 2 seconds, jesus. Besides how stupid what you literally said is, it's really obvious to everyone here that you don't actually mean cultural, you mean race and gender. You want to just work around white men. And guess what! People of all races (and genders) *are* of the same culture you grew up with, it's called American culture (I'm assuming you're American here, insert any country for the same point however).
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May 17, 2018 00:09
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Taffer posted:Think about how stupid this statement is for like 2 seconds, jesus. Besides how stupid what you literally said is, it's really obvious to everyone here that you don't actually mean cultural, you mean race and gender. You want to just work around white men. Nope, no particular problems with any races or genders, including trans people. I just like working predominantly with people who grew up in American culture, as I explicitly stated previously and as you say is fine. A few people from other cultures is also fine, but when I'm working with 75% Indians, that's not an environment I want to work with because their culture has taken over that group. Cultural references, dominance interactions, saving face - there's a lot to stress you out and no need to sign up for that if you don't have to or aren't interested. Shirec posted:Do you not also see the danger of making ill informed decisions because you had no one but people with the same mindset to ask? We see over and over again the results of that. Lots of products developed, ads created, all that jazz, where anyone not a cis white male would have raised a hand to point out problems. Yep, also called out this specifically as something I'm willing to accept, though it would be pretty weird if things got down to cis white males (as I would no longer be included either!)
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May 17, 2018 00:22
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Guys, guys, I just want to work with exclusively the same language and platform I started programming with: Apple IIe Basic. I actively hate everything else and expect this fact to be catered to. This is how stupid you sound, especially considering you work in a career field that rewards lifelong learners who work with diverse technologies, the most fundamental and important of which were developed by globe-spanning talent. If you can't handle diversity, you are in the wrong industry, and will probably never be happy. Also, my team is also predominantly Indian. Respecting them as human beings doesn't wear me out, despite the fact that I am lily white and grew up in a backwoods American town that has yet to come to terms with gay marriage and black people existing. BurntCornMuffin fucked around with this message at 00:35 on May 17, 2018 |
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May 17, 2018 00:32
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baquerd posted:As a developer, and in general, it's always a good idea to stay calm and treat others well. It's an important life skill, but if it's possible to avoid active and constant use of this skillset and instead relax and be oneself that can increase happiness. Not cjbdexcebdjbv at sllllllll
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May 17, 2018 00:36
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baquerd posted:I've increased my prioritization of a lower-stress work life in recent years. Race and gender don't really factor into that personally, but I find it frequently frustrating working with people who have language barriers or who come from very different cultures. Going from an environment that was highly diverse in that sense to a place that was mostly Americans greatly increased my personal happiness. So here's the post where I think things started getting really out of hand. The most charitable possible interpretation of it is that strong accents are hard to understand in teammates. No they're not.
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May 17, 2018 00:41
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Bongo Bill posted:So here's the post where I think things started getting really out of hand. The most charitable possible interpretation of it is that strong accents are hard to understand in teammates. Oh poo poo, people can have different experiences which are equally valid? Wait, that seems to be the opposite of your claim here. I'm done for at least the night, this discussion is just a weird circle jerk now.
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May 17, 2018 00:43
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Bongo Bill posted:So here's the post where I think things started getting really out of hand. The most charitable possible interpretation of it is that strong accents are hard to understand in teammates. Some people treat colleagues like colleagues, others want a friend.
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May 17, 2018 00:43
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Bongo Bill posted:So here's the post where I think things started getting really out of hand. The most charitable possible interpretation of it is that strong accents are hard to understand in teammates. The most charitable reading is more: if the official language in the office is <X>, all employees should have a basic proficiency such that work can be accomplished without needing to interrupt at least one other person as an impromptu interpreter. Ive worked in an environment where that was not the case, and it was bad. Most places arent that dysfunctional though. At least around language.
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May 17, 2018 00:53
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If you discover it's harder than expected for you, as a native speaker, to understand or be understood by a non-native speaker that you work with every day, then it's not an imposition for you to overcome that difficulty by discussing with that person how you can help each other. You'll get used to it in a few weeks tops. If language barrier problems extend to basic proficiency, then yes, that's a bigger problem, and at that point it's not really a diversity problem either. On the other hand, it seems like baquerd's actual stated problem was that he did not feel comfortable being a minority on a team. And for some reason, this is why he was against codes of conduct.
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May 17, 2018 00:56
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When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression
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May 17, 2018 02:23
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Malcolm XML posted:When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression Utopia has worked well in the past.
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May 17, 2018 02:46
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The fucks going on in here.
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May 17, 2018 03:07
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withoutclass posted:Utopia has worked well in the past. I prefer NationStates. Virigoth posted:The fucks going on in here. baquerd posted.
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May 17, 2018 03:09
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Bongo Bill posted:So here's the post where I think things started getting really out of hand. The most charitable possible interpretation of it is that strong accents are hard to understand in teammates. One of my first jobs out of college the office was heavily Indian and Chinese, speaking English with accents of varying thickness. It took me a little while to get used to hearing and parsing it. One day I had a meeting with a woman I hadn't met before with an Indian name. I walk in and she starts talking and for a second I can't understand a thing she's saying. Then I realize it's because she's speaking flawless American English and my brain was in Indian accent mode. The lesson is don't make assumptions about people based on their appearance.
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May 17, 2018 14:13
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I work in Atlanta and I am very uncomfortable seeing all these talented black developers and ultra-Christian rednecks because I have never been around them professionally and I don't know how to not offend them in basic human interactions. Clearly, I should move to the Bay Area or New York tech scene where it's just white people and asians that are all liberal or moderate so I can be more comfortable. (If it's not obvious, my tongue is jammed somewhere between my right molar and Saturn)
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May 17, 2018 15:50
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I'm a self-taught web dev who picked up a job at a small (<20 people) but successful agency at the start of the year. I feel like this isn't a good cultural fit for me and the work environment can get toxic at times, but I'm not sure if that's just me being stressed and anxious about a unfamiliar work environment... But while my regular monthly reviews have been positive so far, feedback on a day-to-day basis is almost universally moreso berating and accusatory, with little to no direct guidance (no pair programming, I didn't shadow anybody initially, I get very little to no training of guidance on new things that I have no experience with -- And it hasn't helped that this company seems to look down on javascript as a whole, so my past 'experience' loving around with React and Angular on my own are mostly useless here.). Recently, I was tasked with creating a set of QA tests for an app we are working on. Now I am training a new graduate for a QA role. And I have no loving idea how to do QA, based on the daily feedback I get. I think the evironment is a bit toxic or at least isn't one where I fit, but I've only been here for 4 months and it's my first developer job. The only real upside right now is the good pay that I'm getting for my area for my previous experience (none). My current plan is to hold on for another 8 months and then jump ship ASAP, but I'm not sure if I should just start applying elsewhere now. Sorry for the E/N poo poo, but I'm kind of already getting to the point where I'm ready to just mentally check out to preserve my sanity, because I've never had a job this stressful before and I'm worried that every developer job I find will be like this.
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May 17, 2018 16:02
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bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:I'm a self-taught web dev who picked up a job at a small (<20 people) but successful agency at the start of the year. I feel like this isn't a good cultural fit for me and the work environment can get toxic at times, but I'm not sure if that's just me being stressed and anxious about a unfamiliar work environment... But while my regular monthly reviews have been positive so far, feedback on a day-to-day basis is almost universally moreso berating and accusatory, with little to no direct guidance (no pair programming, I didn't shadow anybody initially, I get very little to no training of guidance on new things that I have no experience with -- And it hasn't helped that this company seems to look down on javascript as a whole, so my past 'experience' loving around with React and Angular on my own are mostly useless here.). Recently, I was tasked with creating a set of QA tests for an app we are working on. Now I am training a new graduate for a QA role. And I have no loving idea how to do QA, based on the daily feedback I get. Dude, I 100% know what you mean (I post my sad story in the Newbie thread). As someone that was trying to hold on and eventually it got too bad, it really is worth examining. Are you talking to anyone professionally about this? It can really help to get some outside perspective. And although I currently have only experienced toxic environments, I am assured over and over again that it's not normal. Being put in an environment where you don't know what you're doing, given no guidance, and berated for failure is the worst. If you need an ear, PM me cause we can swap horror stories. Also newbie thread is amazing as well for helping get out.
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May 17, 2018 16:15
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Do realize though that part of this type of work is just having to research and learn new things as you go without guidance or hand holding, because they probably don't know either. Googling and sifting through Stack Overflow is a very important skill that you wont be putting on your resume.
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May 17, 2018 16:23
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bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:...but I'm not sure if I should just start applying elsewhere now. Things are Bad, so definitely get a start. If you do get a bite, you'll be in a much better position and mindset to negotiate your compensation (Always negotiate. Your career will thank you) than if things become Unbearable later. Many in the industry never really stop interviewing, always looking to the next gig. Why does your company look down on JS? Do they feel that JS/frontend developers are lesser people (which is dumb and toxic)? Or are they concerned about the many security pitfalls and foot shootings that JS facilitates (which is actually quite legitimate)? If you haven't already, you would definitely do well to be cognizant of common JS-based attacks such as XSS, and how to prevent them. That stuff tends to be woefully overlooked by training resources, and having your poo poo in the news (or Security Fuckup Megathread) is not a good feeling.
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May 17, 2018 16:32
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Gildiss posted:Do realize though that part of this type of work is just having to research and learn new things as you go without guidance or hand holding, because they probably don't know either. They, uh, look down on Stack Overflow here. I once caught poo poo for reading documentation (edit: because they were in a rush to finish a project) bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m fucked around with this message at 16:57 on May 17, 2018 |
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May 17, 2018 16:50
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bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:They, uh, look down on Stack Overflow here. I once caught poo poo for reading documentation. Sounds like they dont know how to develop, then. Would they rather you just guess at how things work without bothering to check if youre correct? This place sounds awful and if you ever see an opportunity, leave.
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May 17, 2018 16:52
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bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:They, uh, look down on Stack Overflow here. I once caught poo poo for reading documentation.  Get out, documentation and Stack Overflow are, like, how you develop.
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May 17, 2018 16:52
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