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I legit didn't realize the final boss in M&MX was supposed to be a puzzle because it was that easy to just kill him outright.FuzzySlippers posted:On the topic of Japanese games imitating CRPGs I've been trying to play Wizardry Forsaken Lands which seems to be one of the few that isn't a slavish recreation of the early Wizardry games. I like a lot of what it does but the game is just slow as gently caress. Walking is slow, turning is slow, combat actions are slow. Dungeon crawlers are slow burners but a glacial interface is pretty dire. That's a big difference from M&M X where everything is snappy. The graphical glitches, quest-stopping bugs, and load hanging, on the other hand... well, nobody's perfect.
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May 18, 2018 12:13
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More then anything else, MMX suffered from being set in the criminally boring Ubisoft setting. As was said earlier, these games need a good personality, and there is so little of interest to be found in that so very French setting. That said, it's absolutely hilarious that they accidentally made the game that ends the entire setting in 2006 and, since then, every game has been a prequel going farther and farther back, because they don't want to disrupt the canon of loving Dark Messiah. If you can get past the graphical bugs and other poo poo sometimes not working, though, I do still find it fun to play. I just wish I found it interesting to play.
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May 18, 2018 13:06
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I was about to say that Dark Messiah had some personality, but I realized none of that was because of the setting, and it was all because of things like enemies being magically attracted to spikes when you kick them at some and orcs slipping and falling off cliffs.
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May 18, 2018 19:49
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Yeah I have been singing the praises of Dark Messiah Might & Magic forever, but I distinctly remember being confused by some exposition half-way through the game because I had already forgotten everything they exposited earlier from it being so utterly uninteresting.
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May 18, 2018 20:32
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I enjoyed Dark Messiah. The first time I played through it on the default difficulty setting and bought at whim whichever skills I enjoyed, ending up with a character who was fairly good at melee, stealth and magic. For a second playthrough, I cranked the difficulty to max and cheated in enough points at start to buy every single skill. I never finished that playthrough and hearing this thread talk about it is making me want to try again.
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May 18, 2018 21:32
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Dark Messiah ruled but it may as well have been an original setting.
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May 18, 2018 21:32
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Dark Messiah's best feature was dropped from Dishonored. RIP kick, you were too beautiful + awesome for no-kill stealth runs in Dishonored. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnxgQMSsc8c Playing Arx Fatalis to completion, then Dark Messiah with both endings, then Dishonored 1 with both endings was one of the best choices I've made as a gamer. Arx Fatalis's WTF plot twist about 1/5th into the game remains a highlight, loved that reveal + Arx Fatalis's ending. I like to think that most of Arkane Studios games take place on the same world, only in different points in time that eventually loop back thanks to ALIENS, black holes + ALIENS posing as gods. Dark Messiah -> Prey -> Arx Fatalis -> Dishonored series -> Dark Messiah
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May 19, 2018 02:10
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Dark messiah was a hilariously fun game partially on accident, in a real boring setting, with one good ending (and three pointless ones). Xana gets props for being an actual competent and loyal evil minion, and if you pick any of the endings other then hijacking Your Dad Satan's throne with her as your loyal lieutenant, what are you even doing? There are parts of the Ubisoft setting that are vaguely interesting, but the setting on the whole is just aggressively stereotypical and bland. ...Know what though, I'll take it over MM9's garbage fire.
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May 19, 2018 02:56
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Hardly Old School, but I just installed the 100+GB monstrosity that is Middle Earth: Shadow of War. It took hours and all culminated in not even being able to run the game; it would crash with a "has stopped working" error every time, after which I promptly deinstalled it. Not really relevant, but the lesson here is to play retro (action-)RPGs. You will spend much less time downloading, waste less disk space, and they will usually work.
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May 19, 2018 04:30
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So I've played M&M 1-5, but haven't really touched the 3d games. Are they similar in scope and design? (Open world, dungeons locked behind other dungeons for an increased sense of progression, goofy sci-fi ending area, Main Quest being available from the start but requiring lots of steps and figuring out what the main quest even is?) And also, which one is best? All I know is that 9 is apparently terrible? 
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May 19, 2018 04:50
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Gloomy Rube posted:So I've played M&M 1-5, but haven't really touched the 3d games. Are they similar in scope and design? (Open world, dungeons locked behind other dungeons for an increased sense of progression, goofy sci-fi ending area, Main Quest being available from the start but requiring lots of steps and figuring out what the main quest even is?) Mostly, yeah. There's generally a bit of structure to the main quest in that you're given a clear job to do at the start, and there are specific plot milestones you can hit that unlock new things for you to do, but they're not really much more restrictive in that regard than M&M5 was. You can still pretty much run around wherever and poke your head into dungeons at random. You'll be pleased to know that the endgame areas will still throw sci-fi bullshit at you out of nowhere. I'd say the biggest difference design-wise between the first and second halves of the series is that in 6 onward, you have a skill point system instead of your abilities being defined purely by your class and level. There are things I like about this and things I don't (allowing for new forms of character customization and advancement is a thing I like; expecting you to specialize in one weapon type in a game with randomly generated loot is a thing I don't). 7 is generally agreed to be the best entry in the second half of the series. 6 isn't bad but 7 has more and better of everything it has, and 8 does a few interesting things (the new character classes are pretty neat) but at the cost of placing restrictions on your party-building options and throwing the game balance even further out of whack than it ever was (getting a dragon in your party will, as you might reasonably expect, trivialize most of the game).
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May 19, 2018 05:09
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The 3D Might and Magics I feel have you on the "main quest" right from the start, but you're also going to ignore it to do a bunch of other poo poo every single time, so it's got the open world, dungeons locked behind other dungeons, and you better believe they've got some goofy sci-fi. While they technically start at 6, I think 6 is...something you play once. 6 was very much the result of trying to take the pre-3D mechanics and design and translate them over directly without really paying attention to how well it would work, and, well, maybe they should've paid more attention to that. Class balance is abysmal (and indeed the classes only just barely exist) you generally just do very little damage, and it turns out you absolutely can have dungeons that are way too loving long. The end result, at least in my opinion, is that 6 is a slog. 6 is also, however, heaviest on the loving rad as hell sci-fi out of nowhere poo poo, and atmosphere wise is real good, especially if you like absolutely terrible embarassing as gently caress pictures of dudes dressed up in their best ren faire outfits. 7 is a sequel to 6 in every aspect - personally, I think they refined the good and changed the bad, and it's just frankly a better game in every way. Dungeons are typically to the point without being overly short, each class has it's own identity (save Ranger), and frankly it's just fun to explore, kill, and loot. The story gets just as batshit as 6's does - and includes of all things callbacks to motherfucking 3 - in the best of ways, and even has replayability, as there's two opposing factions for you to join. As for 8? 8 is more of 7, but not quite as good. The engine was REALLY showing it's age by then, and there just wasn't anything that new or cool. I mean, on the surface, I get what they were going for - M&M8 was the "dark one" of the three, with you playing as vampires and minotaurs and dark elves and such, with you even visiting Regna, but it was too little too late for most. It's not a bad game by any means, just not as good as the others. And it lacks a lot of the awesomely stupid sci-fi bullshit of 6 and 7. The order I played it in was 7->8->6 (because I got into the series with 7), which meant when I was playing 8, the engine hadn't gotten stale for me yet, and it made 6 look kinda real bad in comparison. I'd consider just doing it in the proper order, so you can enjoy 6 for what it is, enjoy 7 even more in comparison, and then...well, get mildly tired of 8, but that's gonna happen to your third game almost regardless. It's also worth noting that 6-8 is even better if you were the kinda stupid nerd I was who also played through the Heroes games, as they all have one continuous storyline, and it's rad as hell to play through Heroes 3, then actually explore all those places and meet some of the characters in 7, or at least it was rad as hell in 1999 when I was like 14. 7 and 8 also have pretty good replayability with different class combinations, as classes in 7 and 8 have way more identity then they did in M&M's previous. Oh, and 7 also includes Arcomage, and Arcomage rules. Yeah, this probably isn't as helpful, but yeah, I'd say 7 is the best, but consider starting with 6 instead, because 6 is rough to go back to. EDIT: Don't recruit a dragon in 8, or optionally, make your team all dragons. Just don't go half-rear end, really.
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May 19, 2018 05:22
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Trivialize the game sure, but you can fly above the landscape and fireball all the helpless monsters on the ground. It's great!
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May 19, 2018 05:22
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Thanks a lot, everyone. Since no one mentioned 9, I'll assume I heard correctly and it's terrible I'll start with 6 and go from there, then. Thanks again! What is so bad about 9, anyway, outta curiosity?
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May 19, 2018 06:39
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They blew up the loving planet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8XdpoW7F0w
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May 19, 2018 06:44
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Clever Spambot posted:Dark Messiah ruled but it may as well have been an original setting.
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May 19, 2018 07:04
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Might and Magic 7 is very good. It might be better than world of xeen.
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May 19, 2018 07:12
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Zereth posted:Wasn't it the first game in the new Might and Magic setting after whoever it was bought the rights? So it effectively was. Naw, they did a new Heroes first. Dark Messiah was basically the "sequel" to that game, and...also brings about an ambiguous end of the setting! It was very well planned. Gloomy Rube posted:Thanks a lot, everyone. Since no one mentioned 9, I'll assume I heard correctly and it's terrible 9 takes place in a whole new setting with a new engine, and everything about it is awful. The setting is incredibly dull - they were going for a sssoorrrrrrta norse-ish thing? But they never decided on how serious it should be, so the entire game is split between their very dull and generic storyline of "invaders are coming, unite the clans!" and their attempts to make the setting ~*~silly and wacky and zany~*~ and it just fails so loving miserably. The main questline itself starts off bland, but becomes embarassingly poorly written the longer it goes on, and the ending is absolute garbage. It has no charm to it whatsoever. Also, there's no sci-fi elements to it at all. Frankly, it has no connection to Might and Magic as a series outside of it's name. As for the engine, it sucks! Everything is set in this really poorly handled fully 3D engine. The thing you have to understand about the engine and all the gameplay is that MM9 is hilariously unfinished. I'm pretty sure the actual lead dev called it an alpha build, or, poo poo, maybe even worse then that. At the time, 3DO was going under, and New World Publishing was already trying to make Legends of Might and Magic, a game I never played and have no desire to ever play, as it looks JUST as bad. So, a lot of poo poo just straight up doesn't work, and what does work feels like more of a tech demo then an actual game. Combat is boring, spells are unexciting, monsters are unimaginative, balance is hosed, and half of everything is broken. Oh, and all the dungeons suck, and it isn't fun to explore, because the outdoor maps are all a) extremely big, and b) extremely empty. Like, I'm skipping a LOT of details here, some minor some major, but it boils down to: this game is not fun to play. So should you play 9? loving...maybe? It's a terrible game. I played it twice - once when I first bought it, and literally just stopped playing at a certain point, and then like a year or two ago I finally reinstalled it and beat it, and I don't really want to play it again. I don't regret playing it, but only because now I know just how terrible it is. So, there you go. Play it for morbid curiosity, because it is an outright failure of a game. EDIT: You know how there are some games that are kinda lovely but like, they've got charm and you can tell someone really cared and tried? That's not the case here. None of the devs were proud of Might and Magic 9. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 08:33 on May 19, 2018 |
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May 19, 2018 08:18
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I always tried to like MMIX, but couldn't and MMX was a disappointment, since MM7 was my favorite game and I couldn't get into the turn-based combat. Anyway, I still play MM7 occasionally, since it really is just that much fun, but I still secretly hope someone would remake 9 and make it not poo poo. Since I mentally checked out of the series after MMIX, is Dark Messiah playing in the same world as 9? Since that's supposed the new world after the old one blew up and all that?
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May 19, 2018 12:22
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Dark Messiah might as well be in a generic world, honestly.
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May 19, 2018 12:42
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Libluini posted:I always tried to like MMIX, but couldn't and MMX was a disappointment, since MM7 was my favorite game and I couldn't get into the turn-based combat. Naw, it largely goes: Might and Magic 1-8 and Heroes 1-3: all take place in the same universe, also take "universe" literally. The NWC universe. 1 & 2: stand alone games 3: connected to 7 through actual literal space travel 4&5: same "planet" 6-8 and Heroes 1-3: same planet Heroes 4: new planet, old one blew up. Maybe a new universe? Connected to previous planet, with the idea being to slowly disconnect and build a new setting. I never played the expansions, and reading summaries of their plots make them sound dumb as dogshit. 9: Technically the same planet as 4, but in a different region and completely unconnected to everything previous. And then 3DO went out of business. Everything after: New universe entirely, the Ubisoft universe. No connection to previous settings whatsoever. EDIT: This is ignoring poo poo like LEGENDS or CRUSADER or whatnot. They probably take place in the NWC universe but nobody knows or cares because nobody played them. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 12:57 on May 19, 2018 |
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May 19, 2018 12:48
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1 and 2 are also directly connected to each other, in that completing the main quest of 1 lets you walk through a magic portal to the world of 2 like you're John Carter of goddamn Mars or something (and gives you an increased starting level cap if you import your characters into 2).
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May 19, 2018 13:22
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So I guess this means the nacelle colonization efforts we spend multiple games with turned out to be totally wasted, considering the planet they unloaded all those elves and monsters on was then destroyed? No I want to see a third arc, where the builders of those artificial worlds come back to the new planet to ask some pointed questions about why the planet they are supposed to be on is now dead. (Also, please delete the Ubisoft-verse at the same time, please.)
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May 19, 2018 13:52
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Thuryl posted:1 and 2 are also directly connected to each other, in that completing the main quest of 1 lets you walk through a magic portal to the world of 2 like you're John Carter of goddamn Mars or something (and gives you an increased starting level cap if you import your characters into 2).
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May 19, 2018 14:42
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Zereth posted:Aren't they also both set on the same colony spaceship, just different parts of it? OK, since we're apparently doing this thing where we are spoilering 20+ year old games: The third game, too. As I remember it, 1-2 and 4-5 are happening on artificial planets connected to a central hub, which is where part 3 takes place. The plan, as it is revealed throughout the series, was to transport the entire monstrous thing to a real planet (parts 6-8) and colonize it using all the elves, dwarves and poo poo it is carrying around. 6-8 then deal with what happened after the giant space planet ship thing arrived and colonized the planet. The heroes of part 3 take a space ship and manage to crash on the new planet, which is why they got involved in part 7. Then that planet blows up in a spin-off series and part 9 plays on a new planet everyone escaped to through a magical portal. Might and Magic X is more like a reboot, as it completely ignores the two arcs of 1-9 and restarts everything in Ubisoft's new universe.
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May 19, 2018 14:54
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Well, other people were avoiding the detail that 1 and 2, and looking it up, also 3 maybe, or possibly not I'm getting conflicting reports, take place on a spaceship. But I'm pretty sure 2 takes place in the "central" part, since it's on CRON, the Central Research Observational Nacelle. 4 and 5 are very definitely not part of the same spacecraft, since you can walk to the edges of Xeen and look out into space and it's pretty much alone there, and then ending involves turning it into a full spherical planet, so it'd be rather difficult to land it somewhere for colonization purposes.
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May 19, 2018 15:15
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Got some corrections for the settings for 1 to 5 and the links between them. However, the short correction to prof Cirno's version is that 1-2 are not standalone, 1 to 5 form a single metanarrative. Anyway, corrections to what Libluini said: Yeah, MM1 and MM2 happen on a giant colony ship containing multiple artificial bubble worlds (globally called nacelles or VARNs) meant to be used to implant civilized life on planets throughout the universe. MM1 happens on one of those bubble worlds, VARN-4, and MM2 happens on the containing ship's hub, which is also a bubble world, CRON (which is in fact the name of the ship itself). It's worth noting this ship, CRON, is one of many, but it occupies a central place in the 1-5 saga because that's the one where the recurring villain did villainous things. 3 does NOT happen on board of that ship but on a bona fide planet, Terra, on which some of the colonization nacelles have already landed and integrated by the time the story starts. 4 and 5 happen on a separate colony ship, unique in that it's architecturally very different from the others: It is a single flat two-sided world eventually revealed to be the seed for creating a whole planet from scratch (whereas the CRON/VARN types contain multiple worlds that need existing planets to land on). Two interesting points worth noting, one kinda meaningless but the second more amusing: first, there's usually some confusion as to whether the VARNs were flat. If we go by what's told in MM5, Xeen's architecture was unique, but that may just be its two-sided or not-on-a-bigger-ship nature. Second, until MM7's retcon that the MM3 adventurers' ship went off course, the idea is that the same party can have gone through all of the first five games, mirroring someone playing them in order but acknowledging that for someone starting further down the line their party would just be people native to their start game. MM1's VARN-born adventurers go through the gates to another world and arrive to CRON (MM2), save it and are beamed down to Terra (MM3), then take a ship to follow the agents of the ancients to Xeen (MM4-5) where they are instructed to beam down before their ship burns up. This is retconned in MM7 by saying they instead drifted to Enroth, which had already been colonized by a VARN from some other colony ship. Chev fucked around with this message at 20:32 on May 19, 2018 |
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May 19, 2018 15:35
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I'm getting toward the end of MM6 and I need to make a final push and just wrap it up. I've been enjoying it and been exploring quite a lot but the slow and boring combat has been getting to me with there always being way too many enemies with way too much HP. There's something charming to its "inexperienced DM rolling random encounters out of the monster manual" situations where it's like "Okay you open the door and find a large chamber containing... roll dice 100 angry dwarves. Roll for initiative."
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May 19, 2018 15:44
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ProfessorCirno posted:I get what they were going for - M&M8 was the "dark one" of the three, with you playing as vampires and minotaurs and dark elves and such, with you even visiting Regna, but it was too little too late for most. It's not a bad game by any means, just not as good as the others. And it lacks a lot of the awesomely stupid sci-fi bullshit of 6 and 7. Gloomy Rube posted:What is so bad about 9, anyway, outta curiosity? wait no BUT I think I liked it more than just about anyone else ever, and even I just thought it was "eh, fine, if you just take it as a generic CRPG instead of the next entry in a legendary series" (kind of like how I thought Deux Ex: Invisible War was fine!). It was particularly fun to find exploits in the game (obviously, given it was unfinished), which is something I am into, which could be part of why I enjoyed it more than others. ProfessorCirno posted:EDIT: This is ignoring poo poo like LEGENDS or CRUSADER or whatnot. They probably take place in the NWC universe but nobody knows or cares because nobody played them.
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May 19, 2018 19:27
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Might and Magic has a bizarre amount of spinoffs but there are some really fun ones like Clash of Heroes
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May 19, 2018 19:42
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My concise, personal opinion... I liked 8 more than 7 and 6 is a step behind both, but having an extra party member slot in (16/2) really made the game more fun to me; that and the addition of all of the exotic races/classes. I will admit that VIII has more balance issues than (5+2), but in terms of fun 23 is my favourite. As for the square root of 81, the less said the better. I'm with Quarex in that I think that it's bland and technically inept (definitely needs fan patches), but it doesn't, for me, denigrate earlier, better game in the series. Babylon Astronaut posted:Might and Magic 7 is very good. It might be better than world of xeen. This is heresy and I will  you.
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May 19, 2018 19:52
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Chev posted:Got some corrections for the settings for 1 to 5 and the links between them. However, the short correction to prof Cirno's version is that 1-2 are not standalone, 1 to 5 form a single metanarrative. Anyway, corrections to what Libluini said: Ah, thanks for the corrections! Sometimes it's hard to keep all these details straight. Especially since I only played 2 and then 7 and 9, so the story of the other games is kind of less imprinted into my memories. (I tried 3, 4+5, 6, 8 and 10, but never bothered to get very far in them. I still plan to at least finish 3 and 10 someday, at least.)
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May 19, 2018 20:15
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Sorry if I got details wrong; my experiences with 1-3 consist of having read the LP for them like five years ago, so my memories are more then just a bit hazy.Libluini posted:So I guess this means the nacelle colonization efforts we spend multiple games with turned out to be totally wasted, considering the planet they unloaded all those elves and monsters on was then destroyed? That's part of the plot to 7. 7 is actually sorta an ending to the whole Enroth storyline, as either ending you take would radically alter what's happening on the planet and bring it into full sci-fi. It's just that they...well, more or less ignored both endings when making 8. Frankly, the series began it's descent when Heroes 3 had the "Conflux" faction instead of the "Forge" faction  That's...only half a joke, because that particular change lead to Might and Magic ditching it's own sci-fi elements, disconnecting the Heroes serious from the main serious, and going with blowing up the world, which was a bad decision. It doesn't ACTUALLY matter though - either way, the series was doomed so long as it was owned by 3DO. Also I looked it up and yep, the lead designer for 9 openly stated it was released in a pre-alpha build at best. It's impossible to know what 9 was meant to be due to 3DO, but what we got absolutely wasn't what they wanted, and it's largely been disowned by the various devs who made it. Frankly, I just miss those sci-fi / fantasy mash ups from Might and Magic and Wizardry and probably a lot of other stuff. That really isn't a thing anymore outside of literally just one tabletop game I can think of.
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May 19, 2018 21:21
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I do wonder why old RPGs kept doing the fantasy mashup thing (aside from it being cool as hell.) Ultima had the space alien thing too as I recall then just kinda dropped it later in the series. It's as if absolutely every old cRPG developer saw Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and was like "we gotta do that"
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May 19, 2018 21:26
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The circumstances are a bit different for each of the big three. Ultima was "I'm LORD BRITISH king of the computers and richest boy wonder in Austin and I'mma throw everything I ever seen or heard of in my games", dragons, hobbits, balrogs, tie fighters, time bandits, larp buddies, wizard of oz, demon computer with punch cards and so on. It was never medieval fantasy or sci-fi, it was eclectic fantasy from the get go and only got reined in once the setting became Britannia (and, presumably, more people than just Garriott where handling writing). Might & Magic's thing, supposedly inspired by a Star Trek episode which should surprise no one given the number of trekkie references in the saga, is that the sci-fi bits are a late game revelation in each relevant game. Your characters never start directly knowing it's a sci-fi world in disguise, you learn it pretty late (though your characters can have seen science stuff and not have recognized it as such earlier in each game, like a wandering soul in one game being a literally unscrewed robot head that's still talking). Wizardry did the endgame sci-fi reveal in Wizardry 6 when the team (or just the lead?) changed but before that it was pure fantasy, and after that it was overtly a sci-fantasy mix. So Might & Magic's thing of having each game hide the sci-fi side is still pretty unique. Chev fucked around with this message at 22:09 on May 19, 2018 |
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May 19, 2018 22:01
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Also, fantasy wasn't really a separate genre until, like, the 70's or 80's or some poo poo. It was "SCI-FI/FANTASY," counted as one thing.
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May 19, 2018 22:26
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Japan still generally doesn't have the distinction, which is why jrpgs frequently have sword and magic and robots.
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May 19, 2018 22:27
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Age of Decadence does it! It's one of the more interesting aspects of the setting
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May 19, 2018 22:30
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Chev posted:Might & Magic's thing, supposedly inspired by a Star Trek episode which should surprise no one given the number of trekkie references in the saga, is that the sci-fi bits are a late game revelation in each relevant game. Your characters never start directly knowing it's a sci-fi world in disguise, you learn it pretty late (though your characters can have seen science stuff and not have recognized it as such earlier in each game, like a wandering soul in one game being a literally unscrewed robot head that's still talking). I dunno if it was the sole inspiration, but the text "For the world is hollow and I have touched the sky!" appears written on a dungeon wall in the first game, so it was definitely something that went into the creative melting pot. (And yeah, there are a bunch of other Star Trek references throughout the series, including Q as a hidden superboss in 6.)
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May 19, 2018 22:43
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I feel like I could spend all day thinking about why earlier fantasy CRPGs had such big sci-fi crossover, and I would even start talking about play-by-mail Diplomacy games and 1970s-era cosplaying, I am just that interested in these things Unsurprisingly though ProfessorCirno had a pretty solid brief summary of why. The distinctions back then were just less relevant. Being interested in that stuff at all was hugely niche outside of a few things like nascent Star Trek fandom and of course the always-building Tolkien squad, mixing things together probably just seemed to make sense when putting together a labor of love product. Plus wargaming's transition to role-playing was in no small part "O.K. it's just you but you are in a fantasy world and go" so adding in other interests of the players-as-characters seemed logical enough, and it really seems like most early CRPG developers were shooting to recreate their cool D&D campaigns (or other people's cool D&D campaigns) anyway.
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May 19, 2018 23:51
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