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ImpAtom posted:God, that just makes me picture Minmei Nina. Well, both of them are horrible people who are guilty of either directly endangering or actively killing huge numbers of people by throwing a tantrum over a love interest at the peak of a moment of absolute crisis.
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May 19, 2018 03:24
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ManSedan posted:So what’s everyone’s favorite ship in Gundam? I’ve always liked the Musai, especially the 0083 “Late type design”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INA1j4S9wSU
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May 19, 2018 03:47
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MechaX posted:Hell, Amuro was even a flying/mobile suit instructor between 0079 and Zeta. While he was always under watch, he could pretty much do whatever the gently caress he wanted. Beltorchika even mentioned that Amuro socialized fairly well when she met him prior to Zeta. And despite initially not wanting to get into the Mk II or even go to space because of Lalah, he puts that aside and pilots for Londo Bell for another half decade. he did pretty well for himself all things considered, his one flaw being that he still sucks at romance then again he never seemed that interested to begin with outside of his fever-dream with lalah and occasionally sayla
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May 19, 2018 03:53
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Kanos posted:Well, both of them are horrible people who are guilty of either directly endangering or actively killing huge numbers of people by throwing a tantrum over a love interest at the peak of a moment of absolute crisis. tbf take out the "horrible people" part and this describes the majority of gundam protagonists
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May 19, 2018 03:54
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Yinlock posted:tbf take out the "horrible people" part and this describes the majority of gundam protagonists I can't actually think of any Gundam protagonists who throw thousands or millions of lives into jeopardy over a temper tantrum. Pretty much the worst you ever get is them throwing a tantrum that puts their ship and its crew in mortal peril(Amuro, Kira, and Kou do this in particular), but none of them directly threaten or cause genocide-level events like Minmei(threaten) or Nina(cause).
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May 19, 2018 04:33
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Kanos posted:I can't actually think of any Gundam protagonists who throw thousands or millions of lives into jeopardy over a temper tantrum. Pretty much the worst you ever get is them throwing a tantrum that puts their ship and its crew in mortal peril(Amuro, Kira, and Kou do this in particular), but none of them directly threaten or cause genocide-level events like Minmei(threaten) or Nina(cause). I'd say IBO is entirely that. Technically.
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May 19, 2018 04:44
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Kanos posted:I can't actually think of any Gundam protagonists who throw thousands or millions of lives into jeopardy over a temper tantrum. Pretty much the worst you ever get is them throwing a tantrum that puts their ship and its crew in mortal peril(Amuro, Kira, and Kou do this in particular), but none of them directly threaten or cause genocide-level events like Minmei(threaten) or Nina(cause). Flit Asuno would disagree.
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May 19, 2018 04:46
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I enjoy the Salamis and the Magellan warships because they're just flying boats with pink lazers.
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May 19, 2018 04:50
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Kanos posted:I can't actually think of any Gundam protagonists who throw thousands or millions of lives into jeopardy over a temper tantrum. Pretty much the worst you ever get is them throwing a tantrum that puts their ship and its crew in mortal peril(Amuro, Kira, and Kou do this in particular), but none of them directly threaten or cause genocide-level events like Minmei(threaten) or Nina(cause). point, though it can be argued that without their respective ships/crews genocide happens but that's just semantics
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May 19, 2018 05:15
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I'd say IBO is entirely that. Technically. How so?
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May 19, 2018 11:05
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There was that discussion of Flay earlier, and I think the weirdest thing about her is that she's a better fake girlfriend than Nina is a real one.
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May 19, 2018 12:05
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sassassin posted:How so? Let's work down the list; Increasing the use of child soldiers Unearthing the Hashmal and watching it go tear-assing towards Chryse on a mission of murder Devastating the standing government's military by killing most of their elite pilots along with untold number of grunts and causing an uptick in pirate bands. Sparking the events that lead to a false-flag operation to kill an entire Dort's worth of colonists. All because they would never, ever back down from a fight. And there's probably a few more I can't recall off the top of my head.
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May 19, 2018 12:07
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Let's work down the list; The use of child soldiers increased because Tekkadan were successful in their mission to get Kudelia & sinister old man to the summit. As a "temper tantrum" it's pretty minor, and led to far less harm than it did good. Hashmal was unearthed as part of half-metal mining operations. It was woken up by the biggest idiot in the universe being his charming self. Blaming Tekkadan for the Dort massacres is a bit rich since they were orchestrated by Nobliss Gordon & Gjallarhorn. I guess some of that stuff wouldn't have happened if they'd rolled over and died in the first episode, maybe? More likely some other mercenary band would have delivered the weapons and sparked some revolutions to be quelled.
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May 19, 2018 12:33
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sassassin posted:The use of child soldiers increased because Tekkadan were successful in their mission to get Kudelia & sinister old man to the summit. As a "temper tantrum" it's pretty minor, and led to far less harm than it did good. Yeah, from Tekkadan's prospective things go 1) Get Job 2) Do job 3) (Optional) Kill every motherfucker between you and the objective. 4) Repeat. No tantrums. Hell, no need for them, since Tekkadan is perfectly capable of loving everyone over through their sheer lack of concern for consequences beyond the ones that directly impact members of their "family". (Not that it's all their fault. Various factions of Gjallarhorn spent a lot of time in the first season making things worse even aside from Tekkadan's goals,)
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May 19, 2018 23:56
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chiasaur11 posted:Tekkadan is perfectly capable of loving everyone over through their sheer lack of concern for consequences beyond the ones that directly impact members of their "family". I'm still not following. The unintended consequences of Tekkadan's stubborn streak are almost uniformly good, except for cases where they end up screwing themselves (and their Teiwaz "family") over. Thousands and/or millions of lives are only ever in jeopardy in IBO as the result of people like Iok, Rustal, Nobliss and McGillis intentionally starting poo poo. Maybe Tekkadan made piracy and child soldiers look more attractive but the wars and rebellions that used them were all instigated by people who intended to personally profit. Tekkadan's stubbornness in season one prevents Fareed Sr. from gaining control of an Earth bloc, allows Kudelia to start her economic reforms on Mars, and removes the Issue family from the gene pool, all at a great personal cost. They then get caught in the middle of a series of power plays between Rustal and McGillis. Tekkadan are never in a position to gently caress over anyone but themselves and the guys trying to stop them (who usually deserve it).
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May 20, 2018 00:24
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"Great personal cost" might be over-stating things a tad. The only consequences they faced in season one were Biscuit's death and Mika becoming physically handicapped outside of a suit. Meanwhile, the show walls back several other consequences almost immediately.
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May 20, 2018 00:32
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I think it’s safe to call the Jasley thing a tantrum. Dude was a dead man walking, but they just had to doom themselves so that they’d be the ones to kill him.
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May 20, 2018 00:40
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tsob posted:"Great personal cost" might be over-stating things a tad. The only consequences they faced in season one were Biscuit's death and Mika becoming physically handicapped outside of a suit. Meanwhile, the show walls back several other consequences almost immediately. Well, they do spend a brief moment of time lamenting all of the Tekkadan kids getting loving slaughtered trying to break into Edmonton before they're completely and entirely forgotten.
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May 20, 2018 00:46
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chiasaur11 posted:Yeah, from Tekkadan's prospective things go They absolutely do throw tantrums, it's just that Tekkadan tantrums aren't sulking in a hold and refusing to pilot, they're doing something self-destructive because they're angry. This is most apparent in the wake of Biscuit and Lafter's deaths where they basically go ham to the wall because they're REALLY pissed off and in both cases it's presented as a bad thing. Tekkadan's big thing is that they are kids. Even Orga is a kid. They respond to things in the way immature people would even while trying to present an outer covering of adulthood. (The irony of McGillis is that he is the *exact same way* even as an adult.) This gives them advantages in certain ways but also means they're easily exploited and when their emotions get high they do stupid stupid poo poo to show off, or out of pride, or because they want to prove themselves the kings of the heap. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:51 on May 20, 2018 |
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May 20, 2018 00:49
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tsob posted:"Great personal cost" might be over-stating things a tad. The only consequences they faced in season one were Biscuit's death and Mika becoming physically handicapped outside of a suit. Meanwhile, the show walls back several other consequences almost immediately. Well, they also lost a fair number of nameless grunts. Doesn't mean much to the viewer, but for Tekkadan, they're basically family. And it's not so much that Tekkadan's actions first season were wrong (well, maybe the last round with Carta was, since attacking someone under flag of truce is considered, at minimum, bad sportsmanship) as it is that they didn't even play with the idea of further consequences. The job was a job. The idea it could inspire people to revolt against injustice, or lead to increased conflict due to Gjallarhorn's invulnerability being broken, or that child soldiers would be more popular now they were shown to be effective as well as cheap, never crossed anyone's mind. It's shown from very early on, when they kill Coral. Now, this wasn't a bad thing! He was a corrupt shitheel who was trying to kill them, and getting rid of him reduced the portion of Gjallarhorn gunning for Kudelia specifically. But they didn't notice. Just another body drifting in space. Compare to Rustal, and the difference in approach is obvious. Rustal is always thinking about consequences, as he tries to communicate to Iok with the discussion on how to dispose of McGillis's forces. Rustal may do wrong, but the harm done is included in his math.
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May 20, 2018 00:56
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sassassin posted:I'm still not following. The unintended consequences of Tekkadan's stubborn streak are almost uniformly good, except for cases where they end up screwing themselves (and their Teiwaz "family") over. basically they are a fantastic success as guerrilla fighters and abject failures as mercenaries like when mika states his unwavering trust in orga i'm always like dude maybe you should waver, just a little bit
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May 20, 2018 02:54
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Yinlock posted:basically they are a fantastic success as guerrilla fighters and abject failures as mercenaries If Orga was willing to tell Mika to chill or Mika was willing to tell Orga he was wrong, a whole lot of the series would probaly be averted but they also wouldn't be the same characters. TBH Tekkadan was basically screwed the moment Biscuit died. He was the only one who Orga listened to who had the ability and willingness to go "dude, you're loving up."
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May 20, 2018 03:08
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ImpAtom posted:If Orga was willing to tell Mika to chill or Mika was willing to tell Orga he was wrong, a whole lot of the series would probaly be averted but they also wouldn't be the same characters. He was also extremely important as a veteran voice whose opinions carried weight with the crew. When Orga started having second thoughts later there was no one to back him up at all because everyone else had gone all in on sunk costs, whereas if Biscuit was still around he could have added his voice to Orga's to maybe change their minds.
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May 20, 2018 03:28
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ImpAtom posted:If Orga was willing to tell Mika to chill or Mika was willing to tell Orga he was wrong, a whole lot of the series would probaly be averted but they also wouldn't be the same characters. oh i know and it's what makes the story interesting, but it's just fun to grump about how dumb characters are being even if it makes sense
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May 20, 2018 06:12
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chiasaur11 posted:And it's not so much that Tekkadan's actions first season were wrong (well, maybe the last round with Carta was, since attacking someone under flag of truce is considered, at minimum, bad sportsmanship) Bad sportsmanship is using a legal loophole built into your largely ceremonial position to invade an island and attack the people that are legally staying there, and then to keep attacking them during their diplomatic mission. All because your non-existent reputation was damaged when your first attempt to interfere in Earth's domestic politics failed. You forfeit the right to an honourable duel when you've acted without honour, killed children, and abused legal technicalities at every turn beforehand.
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May 20, 2018 10:12
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ImpAtom posted:If Orga was willing to tell Mika to chill or Mika was willing to tell Orga he was wrong, a whole lot of the series would probaly be averted but they also wouldn't be the same characters. Even if Biscuit both survived and remained with Tekkadan, they're still getting caught up in Rustal's proxy war with McGillis on Earth, and when Orga does make the choice to chill instead of going all-out revenge later on Lafter dies and no one's holding back the tide then.
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May 20, 2018 10:22
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sassassin posted:Bad sportsmanship is using a legal loophole built into your largely ceremonial position to invade an island and attack the people that are legally staying there, and then to keep attacking them during their diplomatic mission. All because your non-existent reputation was damaged when your first attempt to interfere in Earth's domestic politics failed. It’s not a largely ceremonial position, it’s a genuine position of considerable power (literally the fleet that protects the Earth) that had simply faded into irrelevance over three centuries of peace. Carts was following up on a forced entry into her territory by an aggressive, heavily-armed mercenary group who’d killed a whole bunch of her people. She was just doing her job.
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May 20, 2018 10:25
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sassassin posted:Even if Biscuit both survived and remained with Tekkadan, they're still getting caught up in Rustal's proxy war with McGillis on Earth, and when Orga does make the choice to chill instead of going all-out revenge later on Lafter dies and no one's holding back the tide then. Not guaranteed - if there’d been a voice around to say ‘hold on, let’s let the Arianrhod Fleet have this one’ during the Dawn Horizon arc, then Rustal might have taken a quite different approach to Tekkadan, seeing them as a recruitable asset rather than a threat to be eliminated. In fact, he might have slowed his roll against McGillis altogether if he didn’t think the guy was using a weapon as deadly as Tekkadan against Gjallarhorn.
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May 20, 2018 10:30
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sassassin posted:Even if Biscuit both survived and remained with Tekkadan, they're still getting caught up in Rustal's proxy war with McGillis on Earth, and when Orga does make the choice to chill instead of going all-out revenge later on Lafter dies and no one's holding back the tide then. Biscuit would've almost certainly been the CO at the Earth division, if not at least involved there, preventing that proxy war from occurring or at least mitigating the damage. He also would've kept a general damper on Tekkadan's antics as the voice of reason, potentially preventing that other tragedy. sassassin posted:Bad sportsmanship is using a legal loophole built into your largely ceremonial position to invade an island and attack the people that are legally staying there, and then to keep attacking them during their diplomatic mission. All because your non-existent reputation was damaged when your first attempt to interfere in Earth's domestic politics failed. Non-existent reputation? Carta was in charge of the entire orbital defense division, and a member of the Seven Stars families. She gonna have a major reputation just by existing. They broke HER defensive line, honor demanded she intercept and rectify this transgression. Everything after is driven by that.
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May 20, 2018 10:31
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Non-existent reputation? Carta was in charge of the entire orbital defense division, and a member of the Seven Stars families. She gonna have a major reputation just by existing. They broke HER defensive line, honor demanded she intercept and rectify this transgression. Everything after is driven by that. She's a spoiled brat with a crew of McGillis lookalikes, shoved off into a role where it was assumed she could do the least amount of harm. The Issue name might be respected, but Carta isn't, and for good reason(s). Honour demanded that she swallow her pride and bow to the will of the African(?) bloc that it is her duty to defend, which had granted Tekkadan and Kudelia residency. Common sense demanded that she wonder why she was having to get involved in the first place. Her tantrum serves only Fareed's personal ambition.
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May 20, 2018 10:41
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sassassin posted:Bad sportsmanship is using a legal loophole built into your largely ceremonial position to invade an island and attack the people that are legally staying there, and then to keep attacking them during their diplomatic mission. All because your non-existent reputation was damaged when your first attempt to interfere in Earth's domestic politics failed. It's not a loophole. It's her actual job. A job that was given to her under the assumption that it would keep her busy with nothing because Rustal handled everything before it could get to her, but still her job. Someone gets on Earth without permission, the Outer Earth Orbit Regulatory Fleet (PERSISTENT AND FORTITUDINOUS!) is legally mandated to murder the holy hell out of them. (In fact, they're the only group authorized to do so. Which is part of why McGillis got so much political hay out of Edmonton) And those children killed troops under her command, using guerrilla tactics to conduct a pretty impressive little chunk of carnage. As Tekkadan learned to their own peril with the Brewers, you treat child soldiers like soldiers. She followed procedure, sending a halt order when they approached, and firing when they they didn't respond. Tekkadan then proceeded to send her HQ on a course to colony drop as a distraction. (They were planning on it being set back to its orbit, but... no communication, no way of knowing what the gameplan was.) Look at it from her prospective, and it goes a little something like this. 1) One of your best friends from elementary school calls up, say that there's some terrorists coming right at you. You finally got your shot. After years of being a joke, you finally get to prove you're not some coddled brat, but a worthy heir to your post. (Remember, in theory, she's topkick of the whole Earth sphere. In practice, not so much. And while she's not the brightest, she's not so dumb she doesn't notice the discrepancy) 2) They arrive. Childhood friend says they're really nasty pieces of work. Still, you have procedure. Give out a halt order. Nothing doing, and you're happier that way. Now you can show your value! 3) Holy poo poo, everything is falling apart, there's a colony about to drop, your handpicked elite guard is loving DYING, and did... WHAT THE gently caress? Someone's surfing one of their corpses to Earth! That REALLY has to be dealt with! 4) REVENGE... does not go well. As in, your troops are massacred, you miss the CO you were targeting, and you're lucky to get out alive. And these terrorists are now on their way unimpeded... except, lucky day! Childhood crush just gave a tip-off, and maybe even implied that he was looking your way instead of at his political marriage! 5) Now, you're an honorable sort. You offer these murderous terrorists a fair shot. They beat you in an honorable duel, they get to go on, with the Outer Earth Orbit Regulatory Fleet offering safe passage. You win, they turn over the persons of interest and surrender. (Which is a pretty generous offer!) 6) You're gruesomely Mikazuki'd. Not exactly a Gihren level monster, what I'm getting at. (Funny thing? If Tekkadan had taken the terms and disabled rather than killed, they'd have wound up in a better position, at least for the rest of the season. Carta's honorable to a fault, so now they got a Seven Stars member playing escort. Might even get to skip Edmonton. But Mika's who he is , and Carta did what she did, so that didn't happen.) chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 11:24 on May 20, 2018 |
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May 20, 2018 11:12
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chiasaur11 posted:(Funny thing? If Tekkadan had taken the terms and disabled rather than killed, they'd have wound up in a better position, at least for the rest of the season. Carta's honorable to a fault, so now they got a Seven Stars member playing escort. Might even get to skip Edmonton. But Mika's who he is , and Carta did what she did, so that didn't happen.) Killing Biscuit meant she was dead on-sight no matter what. There was no way in hell they were gonna do anything other than turn her into pulp the moment she stopped the train.
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May 20, 2018 11:15
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Maybe they would have taken her more seriously if she had a slightly less ridiculous haircut. It's like Haman Khan except bad.
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May 20, 2018 11:23
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Killing Biscuit meant she was dead on-sight no matter what. There was no way in hell they were gonna do anything other than turn her into pulp the moment she stopped the train. Oh, no question. And even from the hypothetical prospective of Tekkadan as perfectly rational actors (which people aren't), previous dealing with Gjallarhorn gave them no reason to trust her to keep her word. It's just an interesting bit. (And a marked contrast from their behavior with the previous duel, which had much worse terms.)
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May 20, 2018 11:24
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Yinlock posted:oh i know and it's what makes the story interesting, but it's just fun to grump about how dumb characters are being even if it makes sense It's a tragedy, it doesn't work if there's no hamartia.
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May 20, 2018 11:36
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chiasaur11 posted:Carta's honorable to a fault Bullshit. She's a child throwing a tantrum.
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May 20, 2018 11:39
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sassassin posted:Bullshit. She's a child throwing a tantrum. BECAUSE she's honorable to a fault  . Her entire drive is because of her upbringing raising her to behave a certain way and abide by a code of honor. Having combatants act entirely outside that is frustrating for her.
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May 20, 2018 11:58
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Neddy Seagoon posted:BECAUSE she's honorable to a fault Acting out of pride, ego and infatuation is not the same as honour. Honour allows someone to accept surrender, defeat etc. She fears losing face, and so repeatedly doubles down on her mistakes with no regard for the consequences to those around her. She has the exact same upbringing as Gaelio. It's not an excuse. Carta is Iok only not quite as dumb and way more selfish and malicious.
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May 20, 2018 12:16
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I would say that would strongly depend on what your definition of honor is, because that varies. She and Gaelio aren't from the same family. They could have very different value sets, just like Gaelio and McGillis and Iok have different value sets despite all being Seven Stars scions. If you're raised to be told that your family name is everything, failing in your primary duty and bringing shame to your family name because you are a fuckup would besmirch your honor. Carta is presented as a naive fool who views the world through a prism of antiquated chivalry, pomp, and circumstance. She's somewhat stupid because of this, but she's very, very clearly attempting to uphold the dignity of her position and her family name. It's just that she's doing it by staging silly duels and having pose-offs when her opponents are murderous gutter children who don't care at all about pomp and circumstance, and she doesn't realize this before it kills her.
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May 20, 2018 13:41
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For an example of a character who is honourable to a fault in IBO we have Ein's commander, who refuses to murder children and attempts to save them and his men from harm and/or censure, even at the cost of his life and reputation. Unfortunately he doesn't realise that the strength of his example would eventually destroy Ein. Kanos posted:She's somewhat stupid because of this, but she's very, very clearly attempting to uphold the dignity of her position and her family name. Her very, very clearest motivation is to ingratiate herself to the Fareed family. McGillis' regard is her primary concern. Her position is a tool, and one she is delighted to have an opportunity to wield in service of a child molester's political aims.
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May 20, 2018 14:41
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