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I'm undecided on that, since almost no one of the 3rd Reich personnel faced jail time or any repercussion after 1945 except bigger names.
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May 20, 2018 10:53
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Healbot posted:I'm undecided on that, since almost no one of the 3rd Reich personnel faced jail time or any repercussion after 1945 except bigger names. Denazification absolutely did not go far enough after 1945. Mostly thanks to the pressure excersised by the Americans and the English, because they thought they needed all those Nazis to get up a front against Russia. That is, however, not justification for letting the GDR scrum get off easy as well. Keine Gleichbehandlung im Unrecht. 
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May 20, 2018 10:57
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Ostdeutsche Amplemännchen sehen viel schöner aus als die Westdeutschen.
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May 20, 2018 11:11
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Meanwhile in Niedersachsen.
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May 20, 2018 12:41
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"Neue Dimension von Gewalt" = "Dort hätten sie lautstark gegen den Beamten protestiert und Transparente angebracht." Was war denn dann die alte Dimension von Gewalt? Kritische Leserbriefe in der Elbe-Jeetzel-Zeitung?
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May 20, 2018 12:48
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If you were wondering whether Denazifizierung worked better in the GDR, haha no. But I will agree that we have the better Ampelmännchen. re: besieging the house of a cop holy poo poo wtf, I hate Linksautonome about 50% because poo poo like this is hosed no matter what banner you're marching under and about 50% because it lets assholes play the "The Left isn't better" card whenever Nazis start poo poo. The left in this country in general has a serious problem with not denouncing the shitbags in their ranks. Nobody wants to be a Nestbeschmutzer, I guess.
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May 20, 2018 12:58
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I very much prefer that to having cops escape righteous judgement for killing an unarmed African migrant in a prison cell.Gatac posted:re: besieging the house of a cop holy poo poo wtf, I hate Linksautonome about 50% because poo poo like this is hosed no matter what banner you're marching under and about 50% because it lets assholes play the "The Left isn't better" card whenever Nazis start poo poo. The left in this country in general has a serious problem with not denouncing the shitbags in their ranks. Nobody wants to be a Nestbeschmutzer, I guess. That was literally nothing, Nazis don't need any justification for their bullshit.
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May 20, 2018 13:14
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Because if there's one thing that's as bad as murdering people it's loudly shouting at a cop. Why won't the evil leftists denounce hanging a banner and shouting! I bet they even shouted swear words.
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May 20, 2018 13:17
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Oh hello, part that annoys me. To clarify my angrish: showing up at a cop's home to protest the actions of the state is a dick move. Don't do that poo poo. That needs to be denounced, because it's not okay. I think "a new dimension of violence" is hyperbole and using the wrong word to mischaracterize the incident, but it is an escalation of sorts that was wholly uncalled for. Really looking forward to what happens the next time somebody's home address gets looked up and spread to a crowd. That said, in my grand universal theory of moral behavior, this incident is like a 4, maybe 4.5 out of 10 on the transgression scale. Worse poo poo has happened. Doesn't mean this isn't bad, too. There are more than two alternatives here. Reading about cops getting away with police brutality and prisoner abuse spikes my blood pressure. That's hosed up. Like, extremely hosed up, and in a better world they wouldn't have gotten off so easy. But the answer isn't to show up to protest a different cop and his family at their private home. I mean, put a pistol to my head and ask me to choose between those two exact things, I'm with you that I "prefer" the protest, but good Lord talk about not only an excluded middle but an excluded universe of other things that we could do to deal with this issue. You're probably right that Nazis don't need excuses - but the Stammtischphilosophen do need grist for their rationalization mills that keep them loudly crying that both sides are the same, we need more Recht und Ordnung, what is this country coming to anyway? And the I-don't-have-anything-against-foreigners-BUT people who voted AfD and are now shocked, shocked to find themselves in one party with Nazis so desperately want to believe that the Left is nothing but Chaoten. Why feed that? Why not even try to counter the narrative? And more importantly, how are we ever gonna figure out the right thing to do if we don't speak up about the mistakes we're making? I'm using "we" because I do count myself as a leftie at heart. Just because the Nazi side is made of loving monsters doesn't mean we can't criticise "our own" for less serious dickery.
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May 20, 2018 14:09
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Next they're gonna read their poems and get clobbered by riot police because reading is for faggots.
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May 20, 2018 14:12
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Gatac posted:Why not even try to counter the narrative? . 
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May 20, 2018 14:17
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Gatac posted:Oh hello, part that annoys me. Sir, this is a Spargelstand
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May 20, 2018 15:04
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I see nothing defensible in showing up at a persons private home with 50 people, whether be it with torches and pitchforks or in complete silence. Also I'd go as far and say it is standard procedure to not arm and enlisten people that have been trained and indoctrinated that you are the enemy. Military personnel are quite scared of "Innentäter".
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May 20, 2018 15:46
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Gatac posted:Oh hello, part that annoys me. you still haven't explained why that's not ok, btw
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May 20, 2018 16:00
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botany posted:you still haven't explained why that's not ok, btw Wasn't aware that was controversial. The cop's and his family's right to privacy has to be considered in balance against the right of the people to redress their grievances with his work. My estimation is that the first is much more important than the latter in this case. The protesters had every opportunity to make their grievance known by other means, whether it's by writing a nasty letter, protesting at a police station/municipal building or using political processes like voting to be heard. Would that have been effective? poo poo, I don't know. Politics is slow and frustrating until things suddenly reach critical mass and start moving and creating new messes. It would have been the right thing to do nevertheless. What they did instead was to confront and attempt to intimidate/shame that cop. That didn't work as a means to getting what they wanted either - it would have been scary if it had, because I sure as hell don't want policy being made by protesters showing up at the homes of civil servants - but now you've got trespassing, you've made him and his family feel unsafe in their own home, you've quite deliberately exploited that one guy can't do a lot about a couple dozen people on his lawn other than calling the police and creating your photo op for you. That is a dick move. It's not quite "let's open-carry my AR-15 to church to show those liberals what's what" dick move level, but it's not super-far off, either. And all that's not getting into whether that dude was even the "right" guy. How many microseconds does one have to be on the Internet to know that you can't trust the hot scoops flying around there? How do you not look at a call to action that's this far away from the norms in this country and not at least wonder whether this is legit outrage or just people trying to start some poo poo? (Tedious disclaimer: not saying this was some false flag op or that there's only one right way to protest, I am saying you should be loving asking yourself if this is a good idea before you go join it.) I get wanting to hold somebody accountable for the poo poo going down with the Polizei - quis custodiet ipsos custodes is a question that needs to be asked way more often. And I get being angry. gently caress, if you read my posts you'll know I'm angry, too. But aiming that anger at a single person when it's the system that needs to change is not going to be productive in changing that system. It's just gonna get people hurt. You want real change and Two-Minutes-Hate-protesting, you're gonna need to think bigger than one guy you've picked off the Internet as the Dude Who Did Someone Dirty.
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May 20, 2018 16:52
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dogboy posted:I see nothing defensible in showing up at a persons private home with 50 people, whether be it with torches and pitchforks or in complete silence. Actually, complete silence would be far creepier. Could make for a decent horror movie scene.
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May 20, 2018 16:59
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Gatac posted:Wasn't aware that was controversial. the part i bolded seems to be the only actual argument in your post, the rest is just a verbose restatement, so i'll ignore it. so you're saying that a cop has a right to have his or her private life separated from his or her official duties, and misconduct on the clock should not be dragged into private life. why?
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May 20, 2018 17:58
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botany posted:the part i bolded seems to be the only actual argument in your post, the rest is just a verbose restatement, so i'll ignore it. If you're not happy with how I do my job, you probably shouldn't react by showing up at my house with a mob, unless it's some truly exceptional situation. I feel like if you disagree, you're the one who needs to explain themself
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May 20, 2018 18:16
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pidan posted:If you're not happy with how I do my job, you probably shouldn't react by showing up at my house with a mob, unless it's some truly exceptional situation. I feel like if you disagree, you're the one who needs to explain themself is your job to be a representative of the government?
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May 20, 2018 18:17
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Interactions with the government should follow geregelte, legal Bahnen and not include lowkey playful kinda kidding kinda not kidding threats against family members of government officials. e: we would all agree that this would be bad if Nazis or Hell's Angels or whatever did it to someone who harshed their refugee-pogroming / Schutzgelderpressung mellow so really this is just "I think that leftists are less dangerous / should be cut more slack" which everyone itt probably already has their mind made up on one way or the other
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May 20, 2018 18:32
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I feel like this discussion a trick to find out how much of the spreadsheet is real and how much is memetic. 
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May 20, 2018 18:36
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legit question: does anybody here think it's somehow beyond the pale for a Kommune to stage protests against their Bürgermeister in front of their property because of corruption or whatever?
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May 20, 2018 18:36
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So people here are in favour of doxxing (policemen, in this case)? That's hosed up. Go and protest in front of a Polizeirevier or something, don't go to some guy's home and implicitly threaten him.
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May 20, 2018 18:56
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botany posted:legit question: does anybody here think it's somehow beyond the pale for a Kommune to stage protests against their Bürgermeister in front of their property because of corruption or whatever?
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May 20, 2018 18:57
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AndreTheGiantBoned posted:So people here are in favour of doxxing (policemen, in this case)? That's hosed up. Only for people that work for the state. So the people in this thread should be safe. Well, except for all the academica types, but how many could that possibly be. 
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May 20, 2018 18:59
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botany posted:legit question: does anybody here think it's somehow beyond the pale for a Kommune to stage protests against their Bürgermeister in front of their property because of corruption or whatever? Yep.
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May 20, 2018 19:22
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Gatac posted:Yep. why
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May 20, 2018 19:28
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Randler posted:Only for people that work for the state. So the people in this thread should be safe. Also what would that even look like? Do they stage a protest in the stairwell leading up to the WG their Dozent lives in?
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May 20, 2018 19:38
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aphid_licker posted:Interactions with the government should follow geregelte, legal Bahnen and not include lowkey playful kinda kidding kinda not kidding threats against family members of government officials. Yeah and pressing charges against a policeman shouldn't automatically lead to a acquittal for them and a §113/114 StGB conviction for you because there are 10 police witnesses who all saw what you did and oops, all the video went missing, but that's what happens, so let's not pretend that is ever an option.
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May 20, 2018 22:39
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botany posted:why because you're protesting against some rear end in a top hat running the town into the ground (which you should protest against maximally obnoxiously at the stadtrat building or wherever the relevant office is), not against said rear end in a top hat maybe also being an rear end in private (which you would protest against on someone's lawn but actually you shouldn't)
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May 21, 2018 07:53
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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cebrail posted:Yeah and pressing charges against a policeman shouldn't automatically lead to a acquittal for them and a §113/114 StGB conviction for you because there are 10 police witnesses who all saw what you did and oops, all the video went missing, but that's what happens, so let's not pretend that is ever an option. Widerstand gegen die Staatsgewalt, eh? I assume you're talking about some sort of physical altercation with cops here. I'm just gonna start with saying: no poo poo, that won't end well. You have precisely zero to gain from it and everything to lose. This is not a value judgment on whether resistance against the Staat can ever be morally justified, because whoo boy that's a whole different discussion. This is also not an elevation of "catching tonfas with your teeth and asking for more" martyrdom as the only correct response to police brutality. Build a harsh enough hypothetical, I'll probably say, yeah, I feel you taking a swing. But on a practical, rule-of-thumb level? Just don't do it, and encourage others not to do it, either. You're gonna have a hard time with self-collected video evidence anyway, what with our country's obsession with Datenschutz and Persönlichkeitsrechte. Smartphone vids are cool for internet outrage but are unlikely to be met with much sympathy in court, even if they are admitted as evidence; poo poo, dashcam vids are controversial as hell just for incidentally having license plates and maybe faces of pedestrians and bike riders on them. How do you think filming hundreds of faces on camera taking part in a violent altercation is going to play? So we're stuck with bodycams until somebody figures out the proper balance between privacy concerns and the right of the public to collect evidence of police misconduct. Bodycams for cops are a start, not the end of the discussion. And yeah, they have convenient "malfunctions" - but I'm pretty sure that pisses off the courts at least as much as it does you. These guys care about getting it right - they wouldn't have subjected themselves to the soul-crushing tedium of being a judge if they didn't - but in the end they gotta go with the available evidence, lovely as it may be. So, closing ranks and telling the same story on the witness stand is an old hat. Disputing bodycam footage, that's trickier. Look forward to these "malfunctions" getting reduced as the tech becomes more mature and police departments get pressured to do something about the issue. You're not gonna be able to eliminate all "tricks" with it, but the way I see it, every time a bodycam vid gets admitted in court as evidence of police misconduct, you're getting something you wouldn't have had before at all. Look, I'm not saying poo poo doesn't happen. It does and it sucks when it does. I am saying that being lovely to people in response is not going to solve the issue. The solution is more accountability being demanded by the public, more court cases where the police overreach is obvious and not another one of those BOTH SIDES street battles, more voting for people who represent your interests. That's how democracy works - shittily and gradually, but still better than the alternatives.
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May 21, 2018 09:14
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Who’s this new guy posting essays in my favorite chill-thread? Alternatively: Mein Herr, dies ist eine Nordsee-Filiale
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May 21, 2018 19:12
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Wengy posted:Who’s this new guy posting essays in my favorite chill-thread? 2 krabben 2 fisch mit extra remo bidde
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May 21, 2018 19:17
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Deutschlandthread, Heimat von Recht, Ordnung und Staatsbürgertreue. Wenn Lachsbrötchen, dann bitte mit Ei. edit: Das Brötchen auf dem Bild braucht dringend mehr Zwiebel, Remoulade oder vielleicht 1,2 Kapern! 
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May 21, 2018 20:33
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That’s an abomination. Fischbrötchen is labbriger Hering and plenty of onions, not salmon sushi.
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May 21, 2018 21:16
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Zwille posted:That’s an abomination. Fischbrötchen is labbriger Hering and plenty of onions, not salmon sushi. Comin' right up! I really liked the Lachsersatz when I was a kid. 
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May 21, 2018 21:19
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Lachs"semmel" triggers me in ways I did not think possible
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May 21, 2018 21:35
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you know the fish is fresh when the brötchen is called a semmel
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May 21, 2018 21:48
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Gatac posted:Widerstand gegen die Staatsgewalt, eh? I assume you're talking about some sort of physical altercation with cops here. I'm just gonna start with saying: no poo poo, that won't end well. You have precisely zero to gain from it and everything to lose. This is not a value judgment on whether resistance against the Staat can ever be morally justified, because whoo boy that's a whole different discussion. This is also not an elevation of "catching tonfas with your teeth and asking for more" martyrdom as the only correct response to police brutality. Build a harsh enough hypothetical, I'll probably say, yeah, I feel you taking a swing. But on a practical, rule-of-thumb level? Just don't do it, and encourage others not to do it, either. You assumed wrong. I was talking about pressing charges against a policeman. That ends with you in jail for Widerstand gegen Vollstreckungsbeamte. They don't need any actual physical altercation to have happened if their colleagues are willing to make one up for them. Which they are, every time. A court case is not a solution for a problem with the police because you will be the one going to jail, not the policeman who committed the crime.
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May 21, 2018 21:48
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As someone with a strict no-onions policy, I'm out for all of this discussion
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May 21, 2018 21:49
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