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Do you think 15 year olds should get away with rape and murder also? Where's the line? I have asthma and reactive airway disease. These are common conditions. I literally couldn't leave the house without a respirator. After the smoke was gone, I had to take a course of steroids due to a chronic cough that wouldn't go away, and my lungs have been a lot more fragile since. Luckily I make a decent buck and can afford medical insurance. Others are not as fortunate. There are people who will have shorter lives because of this fire. The kid should be in jail, and it absolutely should follow him for the rest of his life.
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May 23, 2018 02:18
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Ten years of financial restitution seems pretty loving lenient to me considering the scope of destruction he caused.
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May 23, 2018 02:20
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therobit posted:The kid should be in jail, and it absolutely should follow him for the rest of his life. What the gently caress is wrong with you?
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May 23, 2018 02:23
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Chomskyan posted:What the gently caress is wrong with you? I believe people should be held responsible when they cause massive economic and human damage while committing an intentional felony. Jail time is appropriate.
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May 23, 2018 02:26
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therobit posted:Do you think 15 year olds should get away with rape and murder also? Where's the line? Ah yes. This is the good law and order throw away the key bullshit I love. Do you think there might be a different level of intent between rape/murder and playing with fireworks? Or are you the type that thinks only the outcome matters and intent is irrelevant? Since you brought up rape/murder would you say there is no difference between accidentally killing a cyclist opening a car door without looking vs willfully running one off the road? Because I 100% promise you’ve opened that door without looking before and thankfully 99.99999% of the time there isn’t a cyclist there. I promise you that plenty of the people moralizing played with fireworks as kids and a few probably even started fires. It’s bullshit to take what amounts to stupid kid poo poo and turn it into lifelong consequences.
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May 23, 2018 02:29
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xrunner posted:Ah yes. This is the good law and order throw away the key bullshit I love. Playing with fireworks is a helluva step removed from taking homemade fireworks into a xrunner posted:Ah yes. This is the good law and order throw away the key bullshit I love. Yeah playing with fireworks as a teenager is exactly the same thing as making homemade fireworks, taking them into a State Park, and throwing them into dry brush at the height of fire season. It's way closer to running someone down on their bike in your car to opening your car door without looking, to use your dumb analogy.
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May 23, 2018 02:33
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therobit posted:I believe people should be held responsible when they cause massive economic and human damage while committing an intentional felony. Jail time is appropriate. News break bucko. Throwing a teenager in jail wont cure your asthma. Won't make the forest grow back. Won't do anything to improve or advance society. You're not asking for someone to be "held responsible" (which hundreds of hours of community service already does) you're asking for the state to exact some draconian revenge fantasy against a child
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May 23, 2018 02:34
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DrNutt posted:Playing with fireworks is a helluva step removed from taking homemade fireworks into a The reality is it makes you feel better and more in control to punish people when something outside your control significantly harms something you care about. You’d rather poo poo and moralize and penalize and preferably make the kid personally significantly suffer then deal with the fact that bad poo poo happens sometimes. Reasonable consequences to deter future people from doing the same idiot thing make sense. Massive financial consequences for poor decision making don’t. Sorry you felt powerless. A 15 year old is a good comfortable punching bag at least. HashtagGirlboss fucked around with this message at 02:42 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 02:39
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xrunner posted:The reality is it makes you feel better and more in control to punish people when something outside your control significantly harms something you care about. You’d rather poo poo and moralize and penalize and preferably make the kid personally significantly suffer then deal with the fact that bad poo poo happens sometimes. Thanks for the unneeded and unwarranted psychoanalysis, broham. Whatever makes you feel morally superior on the internet.
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May 23, 2018 02:43
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Why is jail automatically inappropriate?
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May 23, 2018 02:46
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DrNutt posted:Thanks for the unneeded and unwarranted psychoanalysis, broham. Whatever makes you feel morally superior on the internet. You’re showing you’re hand so clearly it isn’t even hard. Go on. Get your hate out. The universe makes sense and you don’t have to ever think about how insignificant you are if you can just punish people when things go wrong. Accretionist posted:Why is jail automatically inappropriate? Jail is honestly probably inappropriate for 80% of the things we put people in it for. Is the kid going to throw fireworks into another forest? No. That means jail is entirely inappropriate.
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May 23, 2018 02:56
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put the kid in a cage so he learns
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May 23, 2018 02:57
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xrunner posted:You’re showing you’re hand so clearly it isn’t even hard. Go on. Get your hate out. The universe makes sense and you don’t have to ever think about how insignificant you are if you can just punish people when things go wrong.  wow man you're sooooo evolved.Lol he's not even going to jail, he'll just have to pay fines for ten years and do community service because he's a poor little white child who didn't realize what he was doing was wrong, sniffle.
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May 23, 2018 03:00
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xrunner posted:things go wrong. Or when people gleefully and deliberately commit arson after being told not to.
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May 23, 2018 03:00
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DrNutt posted:
Dude asked why not jail. I answered. Good to see you’re as good at reading comprehension as you are at being petty. I just don’t waste my life salivating at the opportunity to make people suffer for making me feel small. The community service is more than enough. It sends a message, it forces him to reflect, and it gives back to the community. Some lol huge fine that maybe goes away in ten years and maybe not who knows is wrong spirited and intentionally cruel. It’s meant to make it harder to ever be successful. It doesn’t give back and it is punitive. We are way to focused on punishment and lifelong consequences in this country. End boss Of SGaG* posted:Or when people gleefully and deliberately commit arson after being told not to. You may be slightly overstating what actually happened.
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May 23, 2018 03:08
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so is now a good time to talk about how we should abolish prison or what
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May 23, 2018 03:10
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xrunner posted:Dude asked why not jail. I answered. Good to see you’re as good at reading comprehension as you are at being petty. I just don’t waste my life salivating at the opportunity to make people suffer for making me feel small. The community service is more than enough. It sends a message, it forces him to reflect, and it gives back to the community. Some lol huge fine that maybe goes away in ten years and maybe not who knows is wrong spirited and intentionally cruel. It’s meant to make it harder to ever be successful. It doesn’t give back and it is punitive. Nah, if it had honestly been an accident and had just been playing around then I agree the community service would be fine. But this went well beyond that and it's plenty proportional given that they're not even going to garnish his wages. But go on pretending like this is some petty personal bullshit and you're better than everyone else.
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May 23, 2018 03:10
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Ten years of probation and community service seems pretty fair and balanced given the hot tempers on both sides. He should be feeling the effects for life, not to the point of ruination, but seeing 10% of every check he ever earns garnished wouldn't be entirely excessive given the damage he caused.
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May 23, 2018 03:11
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In my mind, this is on par with dropping rocks off an overpass.
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May 23, 2018 03:19
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Chomskyan posted:News break bucko. Throwing a teenager in jail wont cure your asthma. Won't make the forest grow back. Won't do anything to improve or advance society. You're not asking for someone to be "held responsible" (which hundreds of hours of community service already does) you're asking for the state to exact some draconian revenge fantasy against a child Under the laws of Oregon he is culpable as an adult. Sorry you don't like that. Jail is a common punishment for arson. And a more apt analogy would be killing someone while driving drunk, which should also carry a jail sentence.
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May 23, 2018 03:19
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I think it's good that he did not get jail time (and that is family was not made culpable, which was another thing people were throwing around) but that he instead has a chance to pay restitution in a way that fits the crime he committed while also having a chance to learn from it and make something out of his life. And yeah, it was arson. That's what you call it when you intentionally set poo poo on fire and it burns down.
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May 23, 2018 03:23
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therobit posted:Under the laws of Oregon he is culpable as an adult. Sorry you don't like that. Jail is a common punishment for arson. Yes. Charging juveniles as adults is reprehensible. Even when they do adult crimes. The brain of a fifteen year old is fundamentally different than the brain of a twenty five year old. The decision making process is different. The ability to contemplate and anticipate risk is fundamentally different. They aren’t adults and they don’t think and act like adults. Now this gets really tricky with stuff like rape and murder and there is certainly a line somewhere. That line is well beyond this event though - and calling it arson is pretty disengenous. Accretionist posted:In my mind, this is on par with dropping rocks off an overpass. I don’t disagree with that analogy. It’s a stupid loving thing to do and kids do it anyway even though sometimes they go to jail for it. Teenagers are fundamentally different in their thought processes and while they need to be held accountable the way we hold them accountable should be fundamentally different - even when they cause great harm.
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May 23, 2018 03:30
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DrNutt posted:Nah, if it had honestly been an accident and had just been playing around then I agree the community service would be fine. But this went well beyond that and it's plenty proportional given that they're not even going to garnish his wages. But go on pretending like this is some petty personal bullshit and you're better than everyone else. If it had honestly been an accident he shouldn't have faced any punishment... what the gently caress...
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May 23, 2018 03:32
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ElCondemn posted:If it had honestly been an accident he shouldn't have faced any punishment... what the gently caress... I mean, illegally lighting off fireworks during a burn ban is still a crime, whether your motivations are malicious or not. He intentionally did it in a way as to make what he was doing arson. Do you think if he was just lighting off sweet fireworks and caused the same poo poo he just wouldn't be culpable?
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May 23, 2018 03:34
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therobit posted:Under the laws of Oregon he is culpable as an adult. Sorry you don't like that. Jail is a common punishment for arson. Our country imprisons more people per capita than North Korea. I really couldn't care less what our laws say is worthy of prison time. IM DAY DAY IRL posted:so is now a good time to talk about how we should abolish prison or what 
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May 23, 2018 03:35
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DrNutt posted:I mean, illegally lighting off fireworks during a burn ban is still a crime, whether your motivations are malicious or not. He intentionally did it in a way as to make what he was doing arson. Do you think if he was just lighting off sweet fireworks and caused the same poo poo he just wouldn't be culpable? If it was arson he would have been charged with arson. A felony. He actually did the thing you described in your first sentence which is why he plead to a misdemeanor.
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May 23, 2018 03:40
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I would love to see comprehensive prison reform in the United States, up to and including letting most people currently in jail for non-violent offenses out, and hopefully adopting a rehabilitative system akin to something like the way prisons are operated in Sweden. Luckily this kid isn't facing jail time!
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May 23, 2018 03:41
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DrNutt posted:I mean, illegally lighting off fireworks during a burn ban is still a crime, whether your motivations are malicious or not. He intentionally did it in a way as to make what he was doing arson. Do you think if he was just lighting off sweet fireworks and caused the same poo poo he just wouldn't be culpable? Sorry, I thought you meant an actual accident. Lighting off fireworks isn't an accident, everyone that does it should understand that they might start a fire. We don't know that he intended to start a forest fire, but even if he did we don't know that he understood that it would be as big as it was or put people in danger. The only difference between him and an adult doing this is the understanding that an adult should know better, they should be able to asses the risk of danger to the area and those around them. Children/teenagers are still learning that stuff. ElCondemn fucked around with this message at 03:45 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 03:43
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xrunner posted:If it was arson he would have been charged with arson. A felony. He actually did the thing you described in your first sentence which is why he plead to a misdemeanor. If he didn't it's extremely likely they could have easily charged him with felony arson based on what he did.
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May 23, 2018 03:44
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DrNutt posted:If he didn't it's extremely likely they could have easily charged him with felony arson based on what he did. If it were how you say it is his friends would also have been jailed and charged with accessory.
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May 23, 2018 03:47
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If setting the fire was unintentional, it was negligent enough that it may as well have been intentional. I don't see how what he did is significantly less serious than many other serious crimes. And if he is young enough that none of his actions are his own responsibility, then his parents should be held jointly liable. I think 15 is old enough to know better, because most 15 year olds are not throwing homemade fireworks into dry brush during burn bans, and most 15 year olds could tell you why that's a retarded idea if you asked them.
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May 23, 2018 03:48
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ElCondemn posted:If it were how you say it is his friends would also have been jailed and charged with accessory. And they probably should have been.
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May 23, 2018 03:49
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therobit posted:I think 15 is old enough to know better, because most 15 year olds are not throwing homemade fireworks into dry brush during burn bans, and most 15 year olds could tell you why that's a retarded idea if you asked them. Considering juveniles are arrested considerably more for vandalism and other non-violent crimes than adults are I'd say you're wrong about that. 15 year olds are the prime demographic for doing something stupid like that. Seriously look at the stats, teenagers are arrested for arson the most... https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=datool&surl=/arrests/index.cfm ElCondemn fucked around with this message at 03:57 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 03:54
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ElCondemn posted:Considering juveniles are arrested considerably more for vandalism and other non-violent crimes than adults are I'd say you're wrong about that. 15 year olds are the prime demographic for doing something stupid like that. This isn't small potatoes like a little graffiti or a burned up porta potty. If he didn't mean to set the fire, he is dumber than your average 15 year old. If you drive drunk and kill someone, you still go up for manslaughter because you were negligent to a criminal degree when you decide to drink and then get behind the wheel. Should the outcome of his actions count for nothing?
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May 23, 2018 04:12
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No because apparently his pea brain is a get out of consequences free card
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May 23, 2018 04:16
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We need to stop trying kids as adults all the drat time but this kid should face consequences for not burning down the rest of his garbage-rear end state.
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May 23, 2018 04:32
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https://twitter.com/joeyalison/status/999135986553569280
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May 23, 2018 05:35
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Make him do the community service until he turns 18 and graduates high school. Then press him into the forestry service until the area is back to the way it was before he torched it. Hell even give him whatever salary they pay forestry workers, but tie his life to taking care of that area.
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May 23, 2018 05:56
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Soarer posted:Make him do the community service until he turns 18 and graduates high school. Then press him into the forestry service until the area is back to the way it was before he torched it. Hell even give him whatever salary they pay forestry workers, but tie his life to taking care of that area. You realize the best and really only way to let a natural forest come back is to wait for trees to grow naturally right The Forest Service doesn't exactly go around planting trees after a fire
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May 23, 2018 06:28
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Community service directly aimed at forestry is appropriate imo. Caring for trails and the standard stuff forestry folk do. I realise he's not facing jail but just another hand up for - holy poo poo we send people to jail way too loving much and kids should never be tried as adults. I really truly believe that jail should be reserved for intentional bodily harm and every thing else should be tied to community service. Also i once threw a roll of black cats onto my neighbors roof on fourth of July and holy gently caress I had a panic attack the second I realised the huge mistake I made. Luckily I was able to grab a hose. I was a straight a student but man kids really suck at thinking poo poo through.
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May 23, 2018 06:29
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