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Free Triangle posted:I've always felt that crits in 4e were weaker than their 3x 5e cousins? 4e crits are on the average stronger, but 3.5 crits have the potential to do more theoretically. A 3x or 4x weapon in 3.5 is roughly equated to a "high crit" weapon.
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May 18, 2018 21:50
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Free Triangle posted:I've always felt that crits in 4e were weaker than their 3x 5e cousins? Crits are very strong if you optimise for them heavily, only decent if you don't. Like, optimising them heavily gets you triple damage plus an entire extra attack, generally they just do max plus a few extra dice.
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May 18, 2018 22:27
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I mean in Pathfinder you crit on 15-20 for x2, which puts a million different debuffs, but I see your point. Edit: Also isn't a 2x crit applying to your static damage bonuses stronger than just maximizing your dice? A d10 goes from 5.5 to 10, which is the equivalent of a +4.5, to beat that you'd need a +3 damage bonus (power attack, enchants, whatever)
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May 19, 2018 05:45
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Yeah but as a striker in 4e you'll be rolling something like 3d10+3d8+2d6 (all maximized) plus crit dice. No one rolls just single weapon dice, you'll be using a 2W or 3W power at least, plus striker feature dice, plus added dice from optimization, plus crit dice. Could even have a d12 or 2d6 weapon, although even d4s are nasty in this setup.
TheDemon fucked around with this message at 06:03 on May 19, 2018 |
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May 19, 2018 06:01
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thespaceinvader posted:Crits are very strong if you optimise for them heavily, only decent if you don't. Yeah I'm mostly thinking barbarian and rogue here where getting extra attacks can be gross. It's a 12.5% increaseto your crit range if you are a daggermster. Edit: and basically everyone insta locks the plus 5% crit range feat Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 06:14 on May 19, 2018 |
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May 19, 2018 06:02
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Clearly we need a half elf twin strike avenger
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May 19, 2018 06:09
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The Slayer is my favourite critfisher. Draeven Marauder, Rending Gouge. Note that the extra attack from rending gouge isn't a free action, so it's not once per turn...
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May 19, 2018 07:28
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4e also took out crit confirmations so you get more mileage out of crits even if you aren't investing resources into optimizing for them. And spells being generally changed to 'attack vs defense' instead of 'save vs effect' means casters are seeing crit bonuses matter too, particularly AoE spammers.
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May 19, 2018 09:39
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isndl posted:4e also took out crit confirmations so you get more mileage out of crits even if you aren't investing resources into optimizing for them. And spells being generally changed to 'attack vs defense' instead of 'save vs effect' means casters are seeing crit bonuses matter too, particularly AoE spammers. Yeah crits are even more disgusting on sorcerer's because they can get that feat that lets them shift the crit from some chump the to elite/solo in the AoE
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May 19, 2018 11:16
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This is a Avenging crit fisherman, haven't fully tuned it, but it's close. On a crit, with the selected items, you deal max damage+6d6+3d8+1d10, then attack with 3 Overwhelming Strikes (from Rending Kopesh, Ardent Fury, Two Weapon Opening). None of those Overwhelming Strikes are free actions either. So if you crit, it becomes far more likely that you'll crit more on the turn and just turn into a cascading blender of death. ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== level 30 Half-Elf, Avenger, Ardent Champion, Eternal Seeker Avenger's Censure: Censure of Pursuit Seeking Destiny: Reborn in Light Half-Elf Power Selection: Dilettante Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit) FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 24, Con 14, Dex 15, Int 13, Wis 26, Cha 10. STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 16, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 8. AC: 40 Fort: 42 Reflex: 37 Will: 43 HP: 214 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 53 TRAINED SKILLS Religion +22, Stealth +23, Athletics +32, Acrobatics +23, Perception +35 UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +16, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +17, Dungeoneering +23, Endurance +17, Heal +23, History +16, Insight +25, Intimidate +17, Nature +23, Streetwise +15, Thievery +17 FEATS Level 1: Power of Skill Level 2: Heavy Blade Expertise Level 4: Weapon Focus (Axe) Level 6: Two-Blade Warrior Level 8: Improved Defenses Level 10: Unarmored Agility Level 11: Versatile Master Level 12: Two-Weapon Fighting Level 14: Two-Weapon Opening Level 16: Painful Oath Level 18: Deadly Axe Level 20: Devastating Critical Level 21: Hand of Divine Guidance Level 22: Punishing Radiance Level 24: Martial Mastery Level 26: Epic Resurgence Level 28: Triumphant Attack Level 30: Justice Hammer POWERS Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike Avenger at-will 1: Radiant Vengeance Dilettante: Twin Strike Seeker's Lore: Giant's Might Avenger encounter 1: Raging Tempest Avenger daily 1: Strength of Many Avenger utility 2: Refocus Enmity Avenger encounter 3: Fury's Advance Avenger daily 5: Menacing Presence Avenger utility 6: Righteous Pursuit Avenger encounter 7: Inexorable Pursuit Avenger daily 9: Aspect of Might Avenger utility 10: Wings of Vengeance Avenger encounter 13: Crimson Stride (replaces Raging Tempest) Avenger daily 15: Temple of Brilliance (replaces Strength of Many) Avenger utility 16: Temple of Seclusion Avenger encounter 17: Vengeful Parry (replaces Crimson Stride) Avenger daily 19: Blade of Astral Hosts (replaces Menacing Presence) Avenger utility 22: Ghostly Vengeance Avenger encounter 23: Storm of Blades (replaces Inexorable Pursuit) Avenger daily 25: Blade Cascade (replaces Blade of Astral Hosts) Avenger encounter 27: Hurricane of Blades (replaces Vengeful Parry) Avenger daily 29: Follow-Up Blow (replaces Aspect of Might) ITEMS Greater Starweave Armor of Eyes +6, Rending Khopesh +6 (2), Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Ioun Stone of Might, Torc of Power Preservation +6, Claw Gloves (heroic tier), Ring of Free Time (epic tier), Ring of Fey Travel (epic tier), Wraith's Cord (epic tier), Zephyr Boots (epic tier), Ironheart Tattoo (epic tier), Solitaire (Violet) (epic tier), Symbol of Damnation +6 ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
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May 19, 2018 20:13
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berenzen posted:None of those Overwhelming Strikes are free actions either. Ardent Fury and TWO are both free actions.
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May 19, 2018 22:32
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Gah, misread that in the builder. Then swap TWO for punishing axe instead, still become a murderblender.
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May 20, 2018 02:19
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I've finally persuaded my nerds to play 4e (mainly by making them play 3.5e and 5e, and then Gloomhaven to turn them on to actually tactical combat, teamwork, and roles). DDI Character Builder is technically still alive but also still in Silverlight, so effectively dead? Is the offline builder still doing the rounds?
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May 20, 2018 18:36
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ForkBanger posted:I've finally persuaded my nerds to play 4e (mainly by making them play 3.5e and 5e, and then Gloomhaven to turn them on to actually tactical combat, teamwork, and roles). Check yr PMs
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May 20, 2018 20:37
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Awesome, thank you.
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May 20, 2018 23:10
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Anyone have any luck getting it to run on a Mac? I tried to get it to work through Wine but that 100% failed miserably for me.
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May 22, 2018 17:33
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If all we have are the first 3 4ed books, so the players guide, DMs guide and monster manual, are there any quick fixes to make them play them better? I heard the early monsters were too HP spongey or something.
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May 22, 2018 22:32
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Vitamin P posted:If all we have are the first 3 4ed books, so the players guide, DMs guide and monster manual, are there any quick fixes to make them play them better? I heard the early monsters were too HP spongey or something. Google search Monster Vault .pdf for better monsters at VERY reasonable pricing.
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May 22, 2018 23:28
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Vitamin P posted:If all we have are the first 3 4ed books, so the players guide, DMs guide and monster manual, are there any quick fixes to make them play them better? I heard the early monsters were too HP spongey or something. If you absolutely can not buy anything, and dont want to  anything, then at least use this for some quick ideas of what should be correct values as per the MM3.
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May 22, 2018 23:38
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Vitamin P posted:If all we have are the first 3 4ed books, so the players guide, DMs guide and monster manual, are there any quick fixes to make them play them better? I heard the early monsters were too HP spongey or something. drop all defenses by 2, and then add the monster's level to all their damage rolls.
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May 23, 2018 00:14
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I'm going to be running 4E for the first time. I've never even played it - mostly 3.5 and Pathfinder, some 2nd - but it seems my speed. Is there anything in particular I should keep in mind for balancing and such? I see the discussion about the differing monster math but I don't know if that's the only change.
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May 23, 2018 00:17
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Prism posted:I'm going to be running 4E for the first time. I've never even played it - mostly 3.5 and Pathfinder, some 2nd - but it seems my speed. Every character should just get Improved Defenses and an Expertise feat for free, as these fix baked in math problems The easy way to handle some cruft around basic attacks is to make every at-will count as a basic. Inherent Bonuses solves the game's item treadmilling and speeds up the game
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May 23, 2018 00:19
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dont even fink about it posted:Every character should just get Improved Defenses and an Expertise feat for free, as these fix baked in math problems I'd already planned to run with inherent bonuses, and the basic attack changes are easy enough, but what's that about Improved Defenses and Expertise? What book are those in and why is it best to give them for free?
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May 23, 2018 00:25
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Prism posted:I'd already planned to run with inherent bonuses, and the basic attack changes are easy enough, but what's that about Improved Defenses and Expertise? What book are those in and why is it best to give them for free?
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May 23, 2018 00:34
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Prism posted:I'd already planned to run with inherent bonuses, and the basic attack changes are easy enough, but what's that about Improved Defenses and Expertise? What book are those in and why is it best to give them for free? https://songoftheblade.wordpress.com/2015/12/20/how-to-get-started-with-dd-4th-edition-without-ddi/
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May 23, 2018 00:34
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Prism posted:I'd already planned to run with inherent bonuses, and the basic attack changes are easy enough, but what's that about Improved Defenses and Expertise? What book are those in and why is it best to give them for free? As I understand it, an error was made somewhere and the game assumes you have the +1/+2/+3 to those things already when determining monster power by level. These feats are a clunky way of rectifying that.
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May 23, 2018 00:34
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Excellent, thanks. I do not have the Rules Compendium so I'll have to grab a copy of that.
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May 23, 2018 00:36
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I'm not sure if making at-wills into basic attacks is the way to go, but the bare minimum is give people who are reasonably going to be in the front lines Melee Training. I'd go pre-errata, where the person gets the full stat to damage, because why not? Also, if a person shows up with a hybrid character, an Essentials character (stuff from the books that start with "Heroes Of _______"), or a hybrid Essentials character, you fuckin' side eye that poo poo hard because there's a good chance some bullshit's gonna happen. Or they'll show up with basically nonfunctional characters.
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May 23, 2018 01:17
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Prism posted:Excellent, thanks. Drive Thru RPG currently has a D&D sale including PDF versions of the Rules Compendium and Monster Vaults.
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May 23, 2018 01:31
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Gharbad the Weak posted:I'm not sure if making at-wills into basic attacks is the way to go, but the bare minimum is give people who are reasonably going to be in the front lines Melee Training. I'd go pre-errata, where the person gets the full stat to damage, because why not? Nobody else in this group has played 4E either so it'll be the second. BetterWeirdthanDead posted:Drive Thru RPG currently has a D&D sale including PDF versions of the Rules Compendium and Monster Vaults. Haha, that's exactly where I immediately went to find it.
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May 23, 2018 01:41
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Prism posted:Nobody else in this group has played 4E either so it'll be the second. YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED
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May 23, 2018 02:15
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Gharbad the Weak posted:I'm not sure if making at-wills into basic attacks is the way to go, but the bare minimum is give people who are reasonably going to be in the front lines Melee Training. I'd go pre-errata, where the person gets the full stat to damage, because why not? I can't think of anything where turning at wills to basics really substantially hurts anything. It clears some boring powers out where the only thing to recommend them is that they can be used as a basic.
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May 23, 2018 04:16
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Twin Strike as a basic attack is very powerful. A bunch of Fighter & Paladin at-wills become much stronger as basics since they'd be used on OAs, and stealth-based rogues become yet more annoying via Gloaming Cut on OAs, all without the feat investment or level/tier requirement of Heavy Blade Opportunity. There are probably more interactions I can't think of off my head, likely some shenanigans with wizards/invokers.
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May 23, 2018 04:38
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I cannot even begin to express how insane Grappling Strike as an MBA would have made my Brawler. It's already usable as an OA but to be able to grab on an immediate interrupt as mark enforcement as well? Yowza. Footwork Lure too. Suddenly enemies are never where they need to be to hit anything.
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May 23, 2018 04:57
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OK I'll cop to it being too fun.
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May 23, 2018 04:57
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I was phoneposting before, but here's a breakdown of why inherent bonuses, expertise feats, and improved defenses are necessary: Monsters increase their attack rolls and defenses by +1 per level. This means that, over the course of the whole game, they'll have received 29 increases. 1. The Half-level bonus that players get obviously works out to 15 increases over the course of the whole game, so you need another 14 more. 2. The +6 bonuses that you get from items or inherent bonuses works out to another 6 increases, so you need another 8 more. 3. You get a +1 increase to your primary ability score modifier with the ability score increases at levels [4+8], [11+14], [18+21], and [24+28]. That's 4 increases, so you need another 4 more. 4. If you give the players a +1 to all attack rolls and defenses as they enter each "tier" of play, that's 3 increases, leaving them short by 1, but can otherwise be made up for by abilities, feats, and all that. That's what the expertise feats and improved defenses are supposed to represent. Melee Training is necessary so that people who take Opportunity Attacks, but don't use Strength, can actually hit with their AOOs. This isn't as imperative to be given to everybody: Defenders need it, but some defenders already use Strength anyway, and then some classes have At-Wills that are classified as being usable in the place of a Basic Attack. But as the discussion upthread says, it's not the same as saying "you can use any At-Will as a Basic Attack", because that has much wider implications. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 05:04 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 05:00
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Charging builds would probably go a little out of whack with regular at-wills as basics too. Really, you don't need to do anything player-side at first level IMO. They're fine. Monsters definitely benefit from using the "MM3 on a business card" stuff right away because they erred on the side of making them damage sponges that don't do enough damage, but players are fine for the most part. The reason people recommend giving out expertise (at least the basic +hit ones like Versatile Expertise) and improved defense feats for free is because they're absolutely top tier picks but they're suuuuper boring, and they were a patch fix for the math after they noticed their numbers don't add up in PHB2. So it feels like a tax to make a player pick them for their feat slots. On the other hand, the math doesn't actually fall behind at level 1. For expertise it's at level 2, and improved defenses at level 4ish IIRC. But even then the +1 isn't super relevant right away. So instead of overloading players with a pile of house rules at level 1, I've started finding an appropriate story point around level 2-4 where you give out those feats. Maybe a boon from a god, some training, or just as a perk at level up. e: Definitely just have them check the "inherent bonuses" box right away though, as that just make everyone's life easier when you don't have to worry about magic items ever again.
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May 23, 2018 05:03
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Lemniscate Blue posted:I cannot even begin to express how insane Grappling Strike as an MBA would have made my Brawler. It's already usable as an OA but to be able to grab on an immediate interrupt as mark enforcement as well? Yowza. Crazy concept, obviously a bad idea in context. Make it a feat? Invest a feat to get an attack as a basic for OA's. Probably only work for certain attacks and in full 4e obviously probably too big. EDIT: Maybe once per encounter.
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May 23, 2018 06:29
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ImpactVector posted:Charging builds would probably go a little out of whack with regular at-wills as basics too. In fact I'll go one further and say if your players only have the PHB, they won't have so many feats to choose from, therefore "having" to take Expertise will feel like much less of a tax. And to be honest, using a projection over all 30 levels as a basis for recommendations for someone's PHB only first 4E game strikes me as mildly optimistic.
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May 23, 2018 06:52
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Alright, I'll be running 4e in the near future, and one thing I wanted was a spendable resource I could give to players to mechanically encourage doing risky/wild things in order to make sure players are trying to be dynamic. One of the ideas one member of the group threw out was awarding Action Points. Now, since Action Points are limited to an encounter power, my question is, would the 4e action economy but damaged by allowing Action Points to be spent on a per turn basis (So, Standard/Move/Minor/Immediate/Opportunity/Action Point?). I'm not expecting to give out an Action Point to every player every turn, but I want to encourage dynamic, mobile combat in a group where I'm usually the only one moving with any complexity (as a player). Or does 4e have what I want already, and I'm just missing it.
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May 23, 2018 14:18
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