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Lol, go ahead and fight capitalism. Surely this time it will work and not devolve in an autocratic dictatorship. In real world things, S have never been supportive of free immigration. What have happened in latter years is that S had to choose between the Swedish welfare state, a product of S political history, and immigration. Guess what lost. The fact that Sweden have had the highest amount of immigrants/per capita in Europe the last 30 years which finally broke the camels back in 2015 is a major factor in this.
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May 23, 2018 10:44
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V. Illych L. posted:lol this has nothing to do with why people get ornery about every state function inevitably being located in the capital I meant centralization more in general rather than only for government institutions to the capital. Infrastructure is preferably placed at places with higher population/existing infrastructure as to maximize resource utilization and people are almost always interested in maximizing access to work & utility, so the incentives for centralization are not some secret plan/general wish to increase property values or gut the country side of population. For many state institutions I agree with all of what you wrote, as they do not really represent services that benefit greatly from centralization to the capital, with the obvious caveat that one of course one does not place them in bumfuck Svalbard but in reasonable population centers where the population has adequate skillsets (one does preferably not place läkemedelsverkets main office in Jönköping etc.), which still means city and not out in the "country".
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May 23, 2018 10:49
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Rnr posted:However, I still think we have a major problem if certain religions or certain behaviours cannot be criticised They can, this "issue" just isn't one of them. I eat only once a day - though not for religious reasons - and I've never had any problem at work because of that.
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May 23, 2018 10:50
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Mercrom posted:is there an actual reason for decentralization other than that people like cars and taking up space and killing animals Are we talking just moving stuff to Århus, which would be not so bad, or to like Randers or Visby or Bornholm here?
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May 23, 2018 11:02
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Rust Martialis posted:Are we talking just moving stuff to Århus, which would be not so bad, or to like Randers or Visby or Bornholm here? It's Aaaaarhus now.
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May 23, 2018 11:03
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Rnr posted:Okay, so that's racist and bigoted, saying something negative about a religious custom in relation to local work ethics? Bar is low these days I guess... Danes and work ethic? Exactly how many religious holidays do *Danes* get a year again? I mean I just got Monday off for Pinsen. Why exactly is Lutheranism treated better than Islam or Judaism? You either treat all religions fairly or none. Would forcing Orthodox Jewish store owners to stay open on Saturday and close Sunday be ethical, to you, Mister Dane?
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May 23, 2018 11:07
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THE BAR posted:It's Aaaaarhus now. I just memorized alt-codes for poo poo, so it's alt-0197rhus to me.
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May 23, 2018 11:08
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Rust Martialis posted:Exactly how many religious holidays do *Danes* get a year again? I'm at work today so the answer is clearly "not enough".
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May 23, 2018 11:27
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Cerebral Bore posted:Immigration poicy is actually kinda immaterial. Swedes thinking it's immaterial is the entire problem. It only exists as a measure of man's sinfullness to them. Immigration policy is extremely material.
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May 23, 2018 11:46
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Groda posted:None of that is actual anything. Actually done, I'm not sure. What they communicate sounds horrible to me. The reduction to EU minimum alottment, proposed central interrment camps, border controls, that godawful pseudo-scientific age-screening, more lock-ups, and throwing working people out the instant an administrative error is made. Or perhaps I am a dumb who is Angry on the Internet? If so, please point me to where I can learn more and be less dumb.
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May 23, 2018 11:49
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Rnr posted:If you say capitalism is the root cause of our problems (which is a pretty precarious stance already), I assume you want to replace it with something? With what exactly? A regulated market economy is the best we currently have. When we find something better, by all means, let's go for it. Anyway, how do you define "the best"? Because saying capitalism is the best is essentially equivalent to saying someone continuously borrowing money to pay for an extravagant lifestyle has a better household economy than someone who tries to make do with just their earnings - you're judging the lifestyle alone, without taking into account the debt being accrued. The damage caused by climate change in economic terms alone could be staggering and sustained, and that's without taking into account second-order effects like massive refugee streams that will make everyone in Europe look back wistfully at the Syrian refugee crisis.
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May 23, 2018 12:07
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Rnr posted:If you say capitalism is the root cause of our problems (which is a pretty precarious stance already), I assume you want to replace it with something? With what exactly? A regulated market economy is the best we currently have. When we find something better, by all means, let's go for it. Capitalism obviously is the root of housing prices being all out of whack, because under capitalism real estate is an investment object. It's not a coincidence that the housing market looks like it does, it's the obvious result of late stage capitalism meaning that there's not much actually meaningful to invest in in the west anymore, so a huge chunk of loose capital goes into real estate. Besides that, how exactly do you determine what "something better is" if you're not allowed to try new poo poo? This isn't an academic question either because this late stage capitalism of ours is obviously completely busted and unsustainable and will break down at some point, which means that it's on you to justify keeping the system rather than the other way around. Cardiac posted:Lol, go ahead and fight capitalism. Surely this time it will work and not devolve in an autocratic dictatorship. lol if you think this kinda bullshit still works in TYOOL twenty-loving-eighteen Cardiac posted:In real world things, S have never been supportive of free immigration. What have happened in latter years is that S had to choose between the Swedish welfare state, a product of S political history, and immigration. Guess what lost. And double lol when you try to pretend that S has actually cared about preserving the welfare state since Persson and that immigration caused this poo poo as opposed to being a convenient excuse. Groda posted:Swedes thinking it's immaterial is the entire problem. It only exists as a measure of man's sinfullness to them. Immigration policy is extremely material. It's immaterial compared to the neoliberal bullshit that we've inflicted on ourselves. The fact that this poo poo is repeated across countries with vastly different levels of immigration is proof enough.
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May 23, 2018 12:32
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Cerebral Bore posted:It's immaterial compared to the neoliberal bullshit that we've inflicted on ourselves. The fact that this poo poo is repeated across countries with vastly different levels of immigration is proof enough. While this is of course true, just lol @ the idea that an Angry White Male getting hosed by skyrocketing housing prices will accept this narrative when he, correctly, gets told that refugees get to skip queues / kommunen will buy them a villa or whatever else retarded measure had to be taken once the refugee crisis made the system totally poo poo the bed. It does not matter that the "welfare queen" or "rapefugees" talking points are dumb, racist and insanely overplayed, it's going to resonate better than "Yeah, we're getting assfucked by neoliberalism" because it is closer to the reality that they experience on a daily basis.
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May 23, 2018 13:38
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so that means I can be a cheapskate and post about posting instead of having some wit or spending any more on comedy avs for people. Which I'm also incapable of. Comedy.
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May 23, 2018 13:39
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Retarded Goatee posted:While this is of course true, just lol @ the idea that an Angry White Male getting hosed by skyrocketing housing prices will accept this narrative when he, correctly, gets told that refugees get to skip queues / kommunen will buy them a villa or whatever else retarded measure had to be taken once the refugee crisis made the system totally poo poo the bed. The gently caress kinda sheltered-rear end reality are you imagining here?
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May 23, 2018 13:41
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Retarded Goatee posted:While this is of course true, just lol @ the idea that an Angry White Male getting hosed by skyrocketing housing prices will accept this narrative when he, correctly, gets told that refugees get to skip queues / kommunen will buy them a villa or whatever else retarded measure had to be taken once the refugee crisis made the system totally poo poo the bed. [edit] nvm, I misread.
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May 23, 2018 13:46
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Retarded Goatee posted:#Goatse2018 
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May 23, 2018 13:50
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Verkligheten där majoriteten av befolkningen har växt upp i första världen med sanslöst bra tillgång till offentliga tjänster - något som sakta plockas isär vid nyliberalismens altare av översteprästerna Timbro / Svenskt Näringsliv för att tillkalla guden "effektivitet". Eftersom att det bara är smörja så blir ju allting, såklart, sämre - samtidigt som du matas med otaliga artiklar och ett mediaflöde som misstänkliggör minoriteter, eller målar upp alla icke-arbetande som lata parasiter. Jag tror att du -kraftigt- överskattar folk om du tror att "Kapitalism är drivare av ekonomisk ojämlikhet och suger faktiskt egentligen. Massor av de problem vi ser idag är en direkt effekt av vårt produktionssystem" resonerar bättre med Svensson än "Dumma MENA-människor kommer från fjärran för att ta våra stålar och kvinnor, kolla bara här i Expressen! 90% av alla gruppvåldtäkter!"
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May 23, 2018 13:53
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Retarded Goatee posted:Verkligheten där majoriteten av befolkningen har växt upp i första världen med sanslöst bra tillgång till offentliga tjänster - något som sakta plockas isär vid nyliberalismens altare av översteprästerna Timbro / Svenskt Näringsliv för att tillkalla guden "effektivitet". Eller så kan det ha något att göra med att den första förklaringen tystas ned av i princip hela media och den politiska eliten så hårt dom kan medan den andra basuneras ut på full volym snarare än någon sorts inre överlägsenhet i hur mycket resonanskraft de har bland folkets djupa lager.
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May 23, 2018 13:58
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För all del - och den är ju dessutom sjukt svår att försöka opinionsbilda kring också, för att vill du inte legalisera slavhandeln hatar du FRIHET!!! Jag var noga med att skriva "upplevda verklighet" ovan för att försöka kommunicera att det handlar lika mycket om ens inre tankevärld som de kringliggande materiella förutsättningarna. Folk upplever försämringar, folk får en syndabock, folk har kulturellt bombarderats med budskap om att frihandel, liberalism osv är synonyma för allt mänskligt, humant och bra (vilket också på något vis förknippats med USA, som otroligt många människor är helt sinnessjukt okritiska till) Det är jävligt svårt att få produktivt respons när du försöker säga åt folk att "Nä, ditt narrativ överensstämmer inte med världen" om det finns en enkel "lösning" nära till hands. Retarded Goatee fucked around with this message at 16:35 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 14:09
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Potrzebie posted:They have gone from "alla ska med" to "-unless you are new here and also a brown; then gently caress you". Also they've basically accepted SDs view of the world, while failing to realise that SD will always be "better" at the intolerance and racism game. Kindly go gently caress yourself. S hasent campaigned on a single liberisation of migration policy in like 50 years. Even guys like Erlander and Palme were thougher than Lövens people are. Nothing about S "new" proposal is actually new, either for the party or for the country. I wish urban kids (and Aftonbladet) would get their heads out of their asses and look up our partys history before they blather on about how this is somehow out of sync with Social democray or what the role of our party has always been. As the german SPD put it in the first few internationals; their country comes first. S is no different, never has been. There is no such thing as a free refugee, and you can't defend a european system that has people crossing 10+ fully functional and peaceful democracies only to apply for asylum in northern europe. I totally understand the incentives, it's great here and they want a future. But, we are in a much tighter financial spot than people realize and we are also in dire need of major structural reforms in the public sector, transportation, housing, defense and elsewhere that will cost us a shitload. We can't afford to be the one country in all of europe that spends as much per refugee as we do and at the same time be the most receptive. This is coming from a social democrat by the way. I wouldn't vote SD if you put a gun to my head, but goddamnit I miss when my party could be the voice of moderation without being equated to a bunch of brownshirts. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 15:56 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 15:50
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Slow down, Adolf
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May 23, 2018 16:34
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The Social Democrats, having no ideas of their own, now want to examine the effects of Ramadan.
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May 23, 2018 16:36
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You could afford to to take in 10 times more easily. Taxing the rich fairly would take the pressure off, but if, hypothetically, you would rather have these people die {and that is where we are headed) than let their survival impact your own quality of life even a little bit, then you are no better than the nazis. Claiming that nationalism justifies this point of view doesn't help differentiate you from them either.
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May 23, 2018 16:43
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:But, we are in a much tighter financial spot than people realize and we are also in dire need of major structural reforms in the public sector, transportation, housing, defense and elsewhere that will cost us a shitload. We can't afford to be the one country in all of europe that spends as much per refugee as we do and at the same time be the most receptive. If you ever wake up and wonder how your analysis got to be so wrong and flawed, one of your central misunderstandings is the above. You've been told that finances are terrible and that we can't afford a functioning public sector etc., but it's simply not true, even if you take a short term perspective it's not true (and much, much more untrue if you take an even slightly longer term perspective) - it's a lie politicians use to legitimize whatever bullshit they want and can score votes on - that currently means racist policies for the conservo/fascist/nationalists side, and lower taxes for the rich/companies for the neoliberal side. The fact is that Sweden has never been richer as a society (same for basically every nordic country), the individual swedes have never been able to afford so much useless poo poo, and have so high housing prices. Companies have never generated more profits, CEOS and managers have never been paid as much as they are. The core issue is not one of 'tight financials', it is one of distribution. The way capitalist societies are set up means that a society redistributes an inordinate amount of the wealth generated by that society, in the pockets of very few people (and companies) - a problem which only gets worse and worse, especially if you consider the infamous r > g. This is what is causing the 'tight' financials in society and the public sector, a higher concentration of wealth in companies and the rich, not that the economy is 'down'. The dismantling of the objectively incredibly successful (Nordic) welfare states we're seeing, is entirely unnecessary and only continuous to happen because the assholes have the wheel. Who unfortunately also includes the social democrats, who for some reason has bought the lie about how terrible economy is, hook, line and sinker. Also unfortunately there are a lot of idiots like you, who will keep voting for parties, which will keep doing the exact wrong thing and make sure the self-fulfilling prophecy happens and Sweden will also get the government its people deserve. Revelation 2-13 fucked around with this message at 17:07 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 17:04
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:S hasent campaigned on a single liberisation of migration policy in like 50 years. Even guys like Erlander and Palme were thougher than Lövens people are. Nothing about S "new" proposal is actually new, either for the party or for the country. Ok so S has a consistent restrictive policy on immigration? I did not know that. Ok so S was always terrible, got it. What I don't get is why super cynical neo-liberals don't campaign for open borders but no access to our public sector and no rights. This is the time to reinstate indentured servitude! What a terrible hot take that was. Sorry. Potrzebie fucked around with this message at 03:02 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 17:40
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:As the german SPD put it in the first few internationals; their country comes first. S is no different, never has been. Considering that position directly contributed to WWI, the demise of the 2nd International and the emergence of Bolshevism idk if you want to be trotting out that particular example
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May 23, 2018 17:42
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Immigrants are 65-70% more likely to be charged for something they won't be convicted of, but hey, it's important to remember that Islam is not a race, and furthermore,
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May 23, 2018 17:48
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Just lol at people itt calling that social democrat literally a nazi for arguing that his country should take that many refugees. If that poo poo isn't toxic I don't know what is - idiotic ideology like that is what gives rise to SD or DF in Denmark, but please, carry on. SplitSoul posted:Immigrants are 65-70% more likely to be charged for something they won't be convicted of, but hey, it's important to remember that Islam is not a race, and furthermore, Yeah, let's equate one argument with another different one... Biomute posted:Taxing the rich fairly would take the pressure off, but if, hypothetically, you would rather have these people die {and that is where we are headed) than let their survival impact your own quality of life even a little bit, then you are no better than the nazis. Wow. Okay, please post the receipts of you selling of all your white privilege (house, items, etc) in order to live in the gutter, and proof of donating everything to MSF, since this would _actually_ prevent loss of life (albeit very remotely from yourself, but since you aren't a nazi, that wont matter, all life is equal, all things are equal). The toxic naiveté of painting people as nazis for being concerned for immigration is just mind boggling to me.
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May 23, 2018 19:07
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https://arbetet.se/2018/05/23/fran-klass-till-hat/ the 115 page pdf the review above discusses seems worth a look at least quote:Ledande forskare på högerradikalism, som Jens Rydgren och Ann-Cathrine Jungar, pekar därför i stället på samlingen i mitten, som försvagat konflikten mellan höger och vänster. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 02:34 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 02:30
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:Kindly go gently caress yourself. Hi Postorder Trollet89. I 100% agree with your post and it have been my stand with regards to immigration for a long time. TheFluff posted:https://arbetet.se/2018/05/23/fran-klass-till-hat/ Thanks for the article, I might take a look. As for the initial premise, I am somewhat doubtful since the success of S was the ability to join together a lot of voting groups into one party. The whole idea of S moving to the middle is more a construction from the left-turn on the 70s, compared to how the party functioned during 50-60s. The left-turn in the 70s was probably one major reason for their first loss of power in 1979. We see that today with the plethora of daughter organisations to S, and I think one issue for S is that they are a too large organisation compared to their poll numbers with so to say too many cooks. But being the old and conservative organisation they are, I think the only change will come when forced to. As for the whole SD driving the debate, I would say it is somewhat a hen and egg problem as well as putting to much emphasis on political debate compared to regular peoples life. The idea that political debate drives everything instead of the other way around is one thing that makes politics seem more like a circus game, which reduce peoples faith in politics.
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May 24, 2018 07:38
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Rnr posted:Wow. Okay, please post the receipts of you selling of all your white privilege (house, items, etc) in order to live in the gutter, and proof of donating everything to MSF, since this would _actually_ prevent loss of life (albeit very remotely from yourself, but since you aren't a nazi, that wont matter, all life is equal, all things are equal). Having the state provide asylum and aid costs the individual very little, which is why I don't buy the "country first" argument. We are in no danger of going under. The argument implies that one has either bought into the scare mongering of the right, or that these people have become unpeople to you, which I believe is the ultimate goal of the current political climate; setting us up for the atrocities to come when global warming starts having more obvious consequences. It's not like there is some rule saying you have to become an ascetic or do nothing. The guy called himself a social democrat, and communally striving for social justice is part of that ideology. Current social democratic parties might be doing a poo poo job of it, but a historically reformist argument that no, social democracy was all about nationalist individualism all along doesn't hold water. Scandinavians countries should provide aid and take in as many as we can, which is a lot more then we are currently doing. I do not have to cut mine off before being allowed to criticize someone who's saying we shouldn' lift a finger.
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May 24, 2018 08:52
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It's been claimed that a high level of immigration will destroy the Swedish economy for at least 25 years now, but for some reason the crash never seems to come. So maybe there's a slight problem with the argument itself?
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May 24, 2018 09:16
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The simplest solution to lessening the effects of the refugee influx is for a centralised distribution system across the EU. Make it so that refugees are evenly distributed to EU members based on the country's population and have a little rule that says that refugees cannot be settled in the nation they apply in. This would solve the issue of migrating through many nations and put the pressure off border countries like Italy and Hungary who would take up a mainly administrative role in processing new refugees to other countries rather than hosting a disproportional number.
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May 24, 2018 09:40
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Biomute posted:Having the state provide asylum and aid costs the individual very little, which is why I don't buy the "country first" argument. We are in no danger of going under. The argument implies that one has either bought into the scare mongering of the right, or that these people have become unpeople to you, which I believe is the ultimate goal of the current political climate; setting us up for the atrocities to come when global warming starts having more obvious consequences. Ehm, Luciabeslutet 1989. Please stop revising history. Also, in the 2014 election people voted S because they saw S to be more reliable in reducing immigration than Alliansen. The Laval case is one example, although it is more directed towards labor immigration which upsets LO. The point to make here is that S&M have a history of being restrictive on immigration, while minor parties have been more ideological on that issue. Since either party have to do compromises and immigration have historically been such a small issue, they have been ok with these compromises. S have at least in two occasions the last 20 years had ultimatums from MP that S were against, but saw political power as the important thing.
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May 24, 2018 09:54
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Truly forced distribution of migrants/asylum seekers within the EU would spell its unraveling. The people of the eastern countries do want any more non-western immigrants (being nazis and all of course), citing social disruption and widening gap to the richer west, so they would never comply.
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May 24, 2018 10:30
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Biomute posted:It's not like there is some rule saying you have to become an ascetic or do nothing. The guy called himself a social democrat, and communally striving for social justice is part of that ideology. One does have to note that the notion of communal striving for social justice has changed a whole lot over the years, if that is the case. Famous Tagdolf Hitlander posted:”Vi svenskar lever ju i en så oändligt mycket lyckligare lottad situation. Vårt lands befolkning är homogen, inte bara i fråga om rasen utan också i många andra avseenden”. One could interpret this as "BLUT & BODEN", or as a statement which roughly corresponds to "It's easier to grab the capitalists by the balls if the population cannot be goaded into bashing the skull of the guy next door, based on ethnicity, as a solution to any problem." The idea that socdems have been opposed to the idea of the nation state or tight borders is absurd. The ability to migrate and/or flee from oppression is a very Cool and Good thing, and has saved -countless- lives throughout the years - but if you deny that it's giving the people who seek to divide non-capitalists a brutally effective toolset - we are going to have a disagreement.
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May 24, 2018 10:33
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Retarded Goatee posted:if you deny that it's giving the people who seek to divide non-capitalists a brutally effective toolset - we are going to have a disagreement. Nazis are gonna nazi. If you are insinuating that we should try to appease them you can gently caress right off. The left should focus on promoting an actual ideology and left wing policies, while fighting the right wing goons, in the streets if need be. If we don't all go out in nuclear hell fire, popular opinion should once again leave no room for far-right filth, and all yall can go back to your holes.
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May 24, 2018 12:03
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Citing pre-italians immigration, pre-finn immigration and pre-'having a generation of politicians not schooled in literal loving race-biology' S as some kind of this is how it has always been example does not really have any relevancy on this argument. At least Cardiac is citing actual political decisions that posters in this thread might have lived to see.
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May 24, 2018 12:08
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Rnr posted:Truly forced distribution of migrants/asylum seekers within the EU would spell its unraveling. The people of the eastern countries do want any more non-western immigrants (being nazis and all of course), citing social disruption and widening gap to the richer west, so they would never comply.
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May 24, 2018 12:10
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