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I know Dom seems dead set on the smart move being to make fire himself, but I think he should have given Wendell the pass and pitted the ladies against each other. It gives him one extra ‘loyal to the end’ credit, and it doesn’t give his strongest opponent a chance to look good right before the finale. I think that might have tipped him over to victory.
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May 25, 2018 11:54
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Not after he picked the cagayan urn.
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May 25, 2018 12:34
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graventy posted:I know Dom seems dead set on the smart move being to make fire himself, but I think he should have given Wendell the pass and pitted the ladies against each other. It gives him one extra ‘loyal to the end’ credit, and it doesn’t give his strongest opponent a chance to look good right before the finale. I think that might have tipped him over to victory. The problem with doing this is that he wouldn't be able to tell the jury that he even tried to get Wendell out. Everyone knows that Wendell was the biggest threat to Dom and they might be pissed off at him for not trying to get him out. He would basically become Laurel.
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May 25, 2018 13:31
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I mean, would J.T. have lost votes if he takes Erinn instead of Stephen? I think so. There's some respect for taking someone you've worked together with all game. Of course for every J.T., there's a Woo or Culpepper.
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May 25, 2018 14:35
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I personally would have voted Dom, but am satisfied with a Wendell win. The F4 turning into a fire battle is still a dumb mechanic that penalizes the immunity winner. They should come up with something better.
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May 25, 2018 14:57
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I got very excited when they announced the next season was David vs Goliath because I thought it was going to be a tribe of people shorter than 5'7 vs a tribe of people taller than 6'2 or something but of course that's not what the gimmick is at all.
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May 25, 2018 15:23
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ApplesandOranges posted:I mean, would J.T. have lost votes if he takes Erinn instead of Stephen? I think so. There's some respect for taking someone you've worked together with all game. To be fair, he knew he didn't need to so he did make the right call, but all of the former Timbiras hated her so much that I don't really think it would have made a difference. The only vote she might have pulled was Sierra.
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May 25, 2018 15:45
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It's going to be so confusing if anyone on the new season is named David.
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May 25, 2018 15:47
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Overdrift posted:It's going to be so confusing if anyone on the new season is named Goliath.
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May 25, 2018 15:53
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Propaganda Machine posted:To be fair, he knew he didn't need to so he did make the right call, but all of the former Timbiras hated her so much that I don't really think it would have made a difference. The only vote she might have pulled was Sierra. Wouldn't have made a 'difference', but she might have gotten Taj/Stephen's votes in retaliation. He'd still have won, but it wouldn't be 'perfect'.
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May 25, 2018 16:39
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I don't think Stephen would have been that bitter. Taj is more iffy but I don't see her being spiteful. I guess we'll never know, but it still would have been a crushing win.
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May 25, 2018 17:16
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Meng3267 posted:The problem with doing this is that he wouldn't be able to tell the jury that he even tried to get Wendell out. Everyone knows that Wendell was the biggest threat to Dom and they might be pissed off at him for not trying to get him out. He would basically become Laurel. I mean, I think "become Laurel" is a bit much but yeah. Dom clearly thought he needed to be able to say "I tried to take out Wendell" to the jury and he's probably right. If he didn't he probably still would have got more votes than Laurel since he did more but the flow of that jury and the way Wendell finished out really did seem like he had the momentum. Especially after that messy fake idol drama of Dom's that apparently lost him Sebastian. I think Kellyn was probably using it more as an excuse. But in the big picture I think that's the moment Dom might end up wondering about. He's just focused on the "could I have beat Wendell with fire?" thing because it feels comforting to think of things being in your control. But he would have gone down as one of the biggest idiots in BB history if he had done that and lost. Propaganda Machine posted:There's no BB thread yet, so I'm just going to trigger STAC and let him know that Frankie Grande is a GUEST MAKEOVER SUBJECT in Drag Race this week. Its bad enough we're all but guaranteed a triumphant Jody return.
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May 25, 2018 17:35
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Propaganda Machine posted:Hay guys, have an amazingly incorrect opinion about the strongest second place finishers in survivor history. These are presumed to be at our above Dom's level. It might seem odd now to see Ozzy on that list, but he lost to the Yul juggernaut by one vote and was really impressive his first season. But he's a different type of player altogether. I'd say Boston Rob, Aubry, and Parvati were pretty similar second place finishers to Dom, in that each was more strategically dominant than their opponent but lost nevertheless. Parv's game was flashy, like Dom's, and Aubry's loss I think is more attributable to jurors just being asses than Dom's, but Dom lost in a tiebreaker, while Parv and Aubry lost by a little bit more. Rob lost by just one vote though. I think that's pretty esteemed company for Dom if he's in a class with those people, and he may be ahead of all of them, in terms of total game control and the vote margin.
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May 25, 2018 17:45
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You're as close as I can agree to, but I still don't. Michele was done dirty by the editing; by all accounts her social game ran circles around Aubry, who was apparently invisible to the other players. That's bad. Ozzy collected bitter juror votes mostly; people hated Yul for snagging Penner (after they all treated him like garbage, of course). Boston Rob lied too much, made too many false promises, and rightly alienated people. It's an anti-strategy loss, but it's akin to saying that Russell should have beaten Natalie (can we not? Great.). And voting against Parvati for her association with Russell is fine, but his antics also meant that her strategy took a backseat short of her double idol play. Dom was mostly just less likeable than Wendell.
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May 25, 2018 17:56
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STAC Goat posted:Especially after that messy fake idol drama of Dom's that apparently lost him Sebastian. I think Kellyn was probably using it more as an excuse. I don’t get this. Like, I agree that it was a factor that played against Dom by the jury, but I don’t understand why that was the jury’s way of thinking. Dom made a huge gamble, but also completely played everyone else and tricked them into thinking it was a real idol. It saved him from getting votes that round, and made Sebastian let his extra vote go to waste. By all means, that should be a reason to vote FOR Dom, rather than against.
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May 25, 2018 18:14
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santanotreal posted:I don’t get this. Like, I agree that it was a factor that played against Dom by the jury, but I don’t understand why that was the jury’s way of thinking. Dom made a huge gamble, but also completely played everyone else and tricked them into thinking it was a real idol. It saved him from getting votes that round, and made Sebastian let his extra vote go to waste. By all means, that should be a reason to vote FOR Dom, rather than against. I was left with the impression that with the exception of the 3 finalists, this was not a particularly intelligent group of contestants.
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May 25, 2018 18:18
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santanotreal posted:I don’t get this. Like, I agree that it was a factor that played against Dom by the jury, but I don’t understand why that was the jury’s way of thinking. Dom made a huge gamble, but also completely played everyone else and tricked them into thinking it was a real idol. It saved him from getting votes that round, and made Sebastian let his extra vote go to waste. By all means, that should be a reason to vote FOR Dom, rather than against. It was good strategy but bad socially. It made Dom less likable. That’s enough to make the difference in a close decision. Not to mention jurors basically always vote for someone they like over someone they don’t. Strategy matters when you either like or dislike both all of your options.
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May 25, 2018 18:42
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Dom has mentioned that it started to look bad when Wendell took his own irrelevant idol out and claimed he had to up the ante by making his fake idol bluff. I mostly buy that. I also agree that the post-merge cast was full of idiots. RIP Stephanie and James. E: speaking of post game press, it made me respect Donathan a lot more. It sounded like those truth bombs were out of desperation and frustration with Laurel the eternal wet blanket.
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May 25, 2018 19:18
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Cool that Probst and Co. finally got their tie. Wendell's a solid guy and acceptable winner but I was finding myself rooting for Dom the last few episodes. I thought he handled FTC quite well, whereas Wendell seemed to be on his heels more of the time. Guess the jury didn't share my opinion. It would have been a gnarly gamble (Wendell might be the best survivor at working with his hands that we've seen), but man I was really hoping he was gonna pit himself against Wendell in the firemaking contest. That might have gone down as the most baller survivor move of all time. graventy posted:I know Dom seems dead set on the smart move being to make fire himself, but I think he should have given Wendell the pass and pitted the ladies against each other. It gives him one extra ‘loyal to the end’ credit, and it doesn’t give his strongest opponent a chance to look good right before the finale. I think that might have tipped him over to victory. I think you might be right. Ben probably didn't absolutely need the firemaking win in terms of resume building, but it definitely gave him that final push. If the show keeps incorporating that element, it will be interesting to see if the firemaking winner keeps keeps winning (2 for 2 so far). It really does make the winner look quite good, and gives them what I would imagine to be a pretty sizable bump in morale for FTC. Its pretty drat unfair for the immunity winner. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 19:43 on May 25, 2018 |
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May 25, 2018 19:36
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Propaganda Machine posted:Dom has mentioned that it started to look bad when Wendell took his own irrelevant idol out and claimed he had to up the ante by making his fake idol bluff. I mostly buy that.
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May 25, 2018 19:41
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Fast Luck posted:I liked when Rob interviewed Donathan, and Rob was like, "I thought you might vote for Laurel," and Donathan is just immediately like, "Oh god no." That was incredible comedic timing, especially for something that wasn't intended to be a joke.
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May 25, 2018 19:54
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Propaganda Machine posted:Dom has mentioned that it started to look bad when Wendell took his own irrelevant idol out and claimed he had to up the ante by making his fake idol bluff. I mostly buy that. Yeah. Dom made his play/bluff and then shoved his idols back in the bag. Then Wendell put on a show putting his idols on even though he wasn't gonna even play them. Then Dom went right back into his bag and gave Jeff the fake one. It seems like he was just ad libbing at that stage and it got messy. It was a great short term play to move forward but there's a reason players try and avoid getting "blood on their hands" and that's it. Sebastian might have been genuinely hurt or he might have just been embarrassed he hosed up so bad but either way its part of jury management. I think Dom probably did what he had to do, but I think it also cost him in the end. And that's the thing with Survivor. There's not a formula to winning. Sometimes the move that could help you win in the end isn't the move that can get your forward in the middle (Laurel) and sometimes the move that gets you forward is the one that costs you in the end (Dom). Wendell won because he had the skill, timing, and luck to walk the line.
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May 25, 2018 19:58
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Ever since the finale, I've been thinking about it, and it's really mind blowing to me just how powerful Dom and Wendell were as a pair. Both astute, strategic players with strong social ties, idols real and fake, and awesome challenge ability; I think people just got mindflooded trying to figure out how to get rid of them, especially since one of them was often immune down the stretch. It was almost impossible to organize a plan against them without it somehow getting back to them. Their fingers were in so many pies that really, the only hope to knock them out would've been for either A, everyone in the game to turn on them at once, which was basically impossible, or B, to get them to turn on each other, which they both wisely just refused to do. Turning on each other too early would've gotten both voted out in succession Josh-and-Jeremy style, and by the time Dom was ready to cut Wendell, he kept winning immunities and making it impossible. Wendell could have gotten rid of Dom by just telling everyone that one of his idols was fake, but that wasn't his style and he clearly didn't need to, so... *shrug* It's interesting to watch the Jury Speaks videos, because pretty much everyone acknowledges that both of them played really strong games. The recurring theme is that Dom played hard, but Wendell played smart. They respected Dom's flashiness and more outspoken nature, but acknowledged Wendell's ability to play quieter and manipulate people more subtly got the same results in a less messy way. Dom really seemed to alienate people late in the game, and it seemed like more than just his fake idol play was at issue here. Interestingly, both Dom and Wendell are referred to as "The Godfather" by different players. Dom is said to have talked to more people more often, but Wendell is the one mentioned more often as having "pawns," with Laurel specifically named as one of those pawns. She was always associated with either Dom and Wendell, or just Wendell, but never just Dom. So once the tie breaker rules went into effect, I think pretty much everyone knew that Wendell had won. I never really thought we'd see a tie at FTC. Hell, I figured we were past the days where it could even be a close vote. But I'm glad Survivor surprised me here. This really was just a perfect storm where two power players were incentivized to keep each other deep into the game because they were each other's best chance of surviving that long. Dom alone or Wendell alone would've likely been voted out mid-merge, but the specter of Dom-and-Wendell, with their seemingly bottomless bags of tricks and combined connections, was just too much for these players to wrap their heads around.
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May 25, 2018 20:19
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I've seen it said elsewhere but I think looking back one of the biggest moves of the game was actually Dom taking Bradley out early in the game. By all accounts he and Kellyn were close and players and if they had both made it to the merge they might have been the kind of united threat that could have potentially taken Dom and Wendell out. Dom and Wendell effectively utilized a "divide and conquer" approach where no one but them really had a #2 who they could reliably build any game momentum with. So instead everyone ended up doing like Kellyn and defaulting to be with the guys until it was too late.
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May 25, 2018 20:30
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I heard that was Chelsea's move. (I'm being half serious.)
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May 25, 2018 20:45
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I think the low key narrative from that episode was that Dom was reunited with Chelsea and Bradley, asked Chelsea what was up and Chelsea said "Bradley and Kellyn have been running poo poo and we should bust that up." Then Dom had to decide whether to go with that or stay Navati Strong. That's kind of where my whole brilliant "Dom and Chelsea" theory developed.
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May 25, 2018 20:53
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That final tribal was nuts. Whatever your opinions on Laurel, having your dreams shut down and having to make a  million dollar decision must have been insane.
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May 25, 2018 21:09
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The funny thing is I think Laurel was pretty much resigned to losing after the F6 move on Dom fell apart. She seemed like she just wanted to get some dignity out of the Final Tribal by convincing the Jury that her decision to stick with the guys made sense at the time because none of them would have gone deep with her. But that's not an argument for winning, that's just an argument for self respect. But going in expecting to have the time to come to terms with it before seeing the votes, having the shock of the vote count coming, truly learning you got zero votes and getting crushed, and then having to go vote before you can even process any of it had to be absolutely crushing. It also had to be rough for Dom in that moment knowing how it was all going to play out and just having to wait.
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May 25, 2018 21:25
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Boring season, great finale
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May 26, 2018 00:09
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No, STAC. Laurel absolutely thought she had a chance. I think that the "they'll beat me" verbiage was driven by production in her confessionals. She would have taken them out, as she very well could have, if she truly thought she was drawing dead going into finals. I'm stoked that she has to sit here and eat the fruits of her delusion.
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May 26, 2018 00:37
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"She would have taken them out if she thought she could have beat them" just seems incredibly simplistic and opposite of everything she said or what we saw play out. Like, don't believe her if you want and think me a fool if you must but the case made is that she felt if she took them out too early she would have gone out of the game herself. I think that makes sense with the numbers. Maybe you disagree. That isn't a defense of Laurel's game, mind you. I think she mismanaged her game and backed herself into a position where she had no winning moves. That's an unquestionable failure. And towards the end she just got kind of pathetic and seemed to give up. She absolutely had to make the move at 6 or 7 and she didn't. Now I don't know if she backed off, if Donathan blew it, or if Sebastian and Angela were never on board to make it possible but either way Laurel should have been pushing it as hard as Donathan was and not doing so is her ultimate mistake, IMO. But like if people want to say her mistake was not going with Desi or Kellyn, I just disagree with that and I think she made her case. You agree or not. Either way I'm not justifying her overall game, just her decisions at the time. Ultimately she hosed up and played herself into a losing position. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 00:55 on May 26, 2018 |
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May 26, 2018 00:53
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STAC Goat posted:I think the low key narrative from that episode was that Dom was reunited with Chelsea and Bradley, asked Chelsea what was up and Chelsea said "Bradley and Kellyn have been running poo poo and we should bust that up." Then Dom had to decide whether to go with that or stay Navati Strong. Which is, of course, weird because Chelsea voted Wendell. It's so weird to think that Laurel destroyed her game at 10 or 9, but that could be what happens when you're too risk-averse. Laurel never pulled the plug. She was too concerned that 'if I flip, I'll be the bottom of another alliance!'. Which is a valid concern. But the game isn't over at 10 or 9 or 6. She was tight with Don which meant she wasn't helpless, and the cast had enough loose threads (Malolos, Sebastian), that she could have rallied a new majority. But that's her playstyle, she's not comfortable leading the charge. Which is fine, but it means you need something to back up that resume. And she just didn't sell it well enough.
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May 26, 2018 01:07
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Laurel's flaw wasn't not pulling the trigger on Dom and Wendell. It was misplaying the rest of the tribe so that she had no real options if she turned on Dom and Wendell. Some of that was the fate of the Malolos but she clearly just didn't have any real game connections with people the way Dom and Wendell did. Or even Donathan. That gave her limited options and meant that she couldn't afford to take out Dom and Wendell too early or risk making herself an easy target. And eventually it becomes just too late. But that's her long term mistake. Her short term mistake was that at F6 she should have stood up and said "SHUT UP, DOM! IT'S A FAKE IDOL! PLAY YOUR VOTES, SEBASTIAN! THIS IS OUR ONLY CHANCE! THE TIME IS NOW, DONATHAN! THERE IS NO TOMORROW! I'M READY!" She didn't and in some form or another allowed Dom/Wendell to escape their last real chance for danger. ApplesandOranges posted:Which is, of course, weird because Chelsea voted Wendell. I mean, that's why its so brilliant, clearly. Because all those times I worked up a theory about Chelsea being super loyal to Dom and Dom grooming her as a goat was all totally justified when Dom voted her out at 8 or 9 or something and she gave Wendell the win. Because I'm really smart.
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May 26, 2018 01:23
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Laurel played a dumb long game but by far the dumbest person in the last episode was Angela. that Seabass vote should have been a Kingslayer moment
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May 26, 2018 13:24
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I'm looking back at some pre-seaaon stuff that I never read for S36, and Chris' impression of Wendell cracks me up. But what do the other castaways think about him? Over the course of our interviews out on Fiji, the Ghost Island castmembers were presented with pictures of their competitors, and asked to establish their preseason thoughts. With that said, here's what they think about Wendell. 
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May 26, 2018 14:17
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Holy poo poo, that's super racist. gently caress that guy.
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May 26, 2018 14:46
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Propaganda Machine posted:Holy poo poo, that's super racist. gently caress that guy. Not really surprising coming from a hitlerjugend poster child, though
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May 26, 2018 15:45
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alf_pogs posted:Laurel played a dumb long game but by far the dumbest person in the last episode was Angela. that Seabass vote should have been a Kingslayer moment You know... if Sebastian had followed through because he didn't even though he was the one who initiated the plan and he knew his extra vote ran out that night. Everyone just deserves a head slap on that one. Laurel should have pushed the issue because it was her last chance to win the game. Donathan should have pushed the issue because he knew he was a dead man walking if it didn't work. Sebastian should have pushed the issue because it was his plan and his last chance to make a move with his power. And Angela just needed to figure out how the game works.
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May 26, 2018 17:26
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It's funny because no matter what happened at F6, Wendell would still have won. He'd be immune at F5 and he probably wins fire even if Donathan or Sebastian were against him.
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May 26, 2018 18:59
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Eh, that's kind of "fallacy of the predetermine outcome" territory. We don't know if Sebastian or Donathan would have lost to Wendell with a firemaking challenge if they had ended up with him there. We don't know if Laurel wouldn't have beat him if Dom had chosen to put her in there. Hell, we don't know if Angela would have won if she hadn't switched seats because maybe a gust of wind would have gone differently or a piece of wood would have burnt better. Who knows?
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May 26, 2018 19:12
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